Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
I tend to agree with Richard, although I can see Nadine's point. I'm sure it can be frustrating to feel that you are tasked with "helping" someone (who is making way more money than you are) with basic language skills. On the other hand, "we" are all in this together. Products are designed/created/ tested/documented/marketed/maintained by a TEAM. I was once tasked with negotiating training costs for a very expensive application simply because I was a native English speaker. I could have said "not my job", but didn't. And it turned out to be a great learning experience; I had the opportunity to work with some folks I might otherwise not have had the chance to. (And I found out I was a decent negotiator!) From: "Combs, Richard" To: Writer ; framers Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad Writer wrote: > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad > for a technical writer: > > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my future, or get defensive about my profession. I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions fairly frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the occasional short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a team meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other departments (sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it makes me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richard.co...@polycom.com 303-223-5111 -- rgco...@gmail.com 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as hessian...@yahoo.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/hessiansx4%40yahoo.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
Tends to make me feel pretty good too, as a Senior Trainer/Technical Writer with a degree in Engineering... :) Tim -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Combs, Richard Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:52 PM To: Writer; framers Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad Writer wrote: > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad > for a technical writer: > > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my future, or get defensive about my profession. I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions fairly frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the occasional short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a team meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other departments (sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it makes me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richard.co...@polycom.com 303-223-5111 -- rgco...@gmail.com 303-903-6372 -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this message may be privileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, or responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, forwarding, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication or any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately, and delete it and all attachments from your computer and network. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Actually, I've done this at a number of companies, essentially functioning as an editor. It makes for a nice change from spec sheets and ritualistic step instructions. Honestly, I've had more trouble getting junior executives to accept corrections than either engineers or senior executives. Grant On 10/6/2011 11:06 AM, Jeff Coatsworth wrote: Might as well ask for "supervise monkeys on typewriters" *From:* framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] *On Behalf Of *Writer *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM *To:* framers *Subject:* OT: Scary responsibility in job ad A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a technical writer: "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. Nadine ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Sounds like a fine opportunity for an instructional Designer! Have my MS-Ed, Instructional Design in Dec. [Sorry, could not resist the opportunity for a shameless bit of self-promotion!] Greg. Eckrich On 6Oct2011, at 12:22 PM, Writer wrote: > Or if the company absolutely feels that the engineers need to learn to > communicate better, put the onus on them, not on the tech writers. Make it a > part of the engineers' objectives, pay for courses, get the engineers to > demonstrate that their skills have improved. If they fail, then no soup for > them! > > Nadine > > From: "Eichelberger, Mark" > To: framers > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17:41 PM > Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad > > I don’t think this should ever be the responsibility of a tech writer, but > it does indicate why they *need* a tech writer.I say let the engineers be > engineers and let the tech writers be tech writers. > > From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM > To: framers > Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad > > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a > technical writer: > > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. > > Nadine > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca. > > Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to framers as gweckr...@wowway.com. > > Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gweckrich%40wowway.com > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Milan, I have not written about this experience but I certainly will. I held the position for about five years and left the company more than 15 years ago. Given my background at the time, it seemed ordinary...like all tech writer were surely doing the same things. Let me add that I documented and learned to operate engine analyzers, brake testers, gas analyzers, emissions testing programs, torque testers, every kind of power tool, every kind of hand tool, battery starting and charging systems, dynamometers and many other speciality tools. I also learned to work with CAD systems and became a passable illustrator. We were all focused on making great products and my contribution was improving support materials. I respected the engineers and technicians for their knowledge and they most always demonstrated the same respect for my area of expertise. I had a super manager, was paid well and learned something new everyday. Degrees aside, I come from a working-class background and value the work of every individual. Mollye -- Mollye Barrett | ClearPath, LLC 414-331-1378 | mol...@clearpath.cc | www.clearpath.cc http://www.linkedin.com/in/mollyebarrett | http://www.twitter.com/mollye Skype: mollyebarrett 2011/10/7 Milan Davidović > Have you written on this one in more detail anywhere (e.g. blog, > newsletter)? Or do you know of a more extensive account on something > similar by someone else? > > -- > Milan Davidović > http://twitter.com/altmilan > http://altmilan.blogspot.com > http://ca.linkedin.com/in/milandavidovic > > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Mollye Barrett > wrote: > > OK, can we agree that if we didn't want the responsibility we would not > > apply for the job? > > If we did want the responsibility, how would we meet the challenge? > > I worked with a group of 50 engineers and 8 automotive technicians. I was > > tasked with improving the content provided by engineers. This required > > establishing relationships and and processes. To be sure, some engineers > > were more willing than others. I created standards, provided examples and > > worked with people one-on-one. The automotive technicians all became > > technical writers with their own area of automotive speciality.Years > later, > > they are all employed as technicians who write for auto manufacturers. > Some > > engineers improved greatly, some not at all. My performance reviews > always > > included a recognition of the improvements or how I would handle the > > challenge. I was responsible for tracking individual improvements and > shared > > the progress with my supervisor. He developed a role for me as the > > documentation approver. I could reject poor content if I made solid > > recommendations for improvement. > > This position was one of the best I've ever had and I learned a ton. > > Did every engineer become a stellar technical writer? No. > > Did most improve their writing? Yes. > > Did the overall technical documentation improve? Based on usability > scores > > and user feedback, absolutely. > > Call me Silly, but it would have been my loss if I had dismissed the > > position because I thought it was hopeless. We make our won choices. > > > > Mollye Barrett > > ClearPath, LLC > > 414-331-1378 | mol...@clearpath.cc | www.clearpath.cc > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mollyebarrett | http://www.twitter.com/mollye > > Skype: mollyebarrett > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Writer wrote: > >> > >> What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech > >> writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with > >> very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or > who > >> even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were > >> motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not > >> reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they > are > >> told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. > >> IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just > >> because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, > it > >> doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would > >> willingly cooperate with such "coaching". > >> Nadine > >> > >> > >> From: "Combs, Richard" > >> To: Writer ; framers > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:52:17 PM > >> Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad > >> > >> Writer wrote: > >
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Have you written on this one in more detail anywhere (e.g. blog, newsletter)? Or do you know of a more extensive account on something similar by someone else? -- Milan Davidović http://twitter.com/altmilan http://altmilan.blogspot.com http://ca.linkedin.com/in/milandavidovic On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Mollye Barrett wrote: > OK, can we agree that if we didn't want the responsibility we would not > apply for the job? > If we did want the responsibility, how would we meet the challenge? > I worked with a group of 50 engineers and 8 automotive technicians. I was > tasked with improving the content provided by engineers. This required > establishing relationships and and processes. To be sure, some engineers > were more willing than others. I created standards, provided examples and > worked with people one-on-one. The automotive technicians all became > technical writers with their own area of automotive speciality.Years later, > they are all employed as technicians who write for auto manufacturers. Some > engineers improved greatly, some not at all. My performance reviews always > included a recognition of the improvements or how I would handle the > challenge. I was responsible for tracking individual improvements and shared > the progress with my supervisor. He developed a role for me as the > documentation approver. I could reject poor content if I made solid > recommendations for improvement. > This position was one of the best I've ever had and I learned a ton. > Did every engineer become a stellar technical writer? No. > Did most improve their writing? Yes. > Did the overall technical documentation improve? Based on usability scores > and user feedback, absolutely. > Call me Silly, but it would have been my loss if I had dismissed the > position because I thought it was hopeless. We make our won choices. > > Mollye Barrett > ClearPath, LLC > 414-331-1378 | mol...@clearpath.cc | www.clearpath.cc > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mollyebarrett | http://www.twitter.com/mollye > Skype: mollyebarrett > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Writer wrote: >> >> What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech >> writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with >> very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or who >> even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were >> motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not >> reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they are >> told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. >> IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just >> because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, it >> doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would >> willingly cooperate with such "coaching". >> Nadine >> >> >> From: "Combs, Richard" >> To: Writer ; framers >> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:52:17 PM >> Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad >> >> Writer wrote: >> >> > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad >> > for a technical writer: >> > >> > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" >> > >> > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. >> >> I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. >> Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without >> seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this >> specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my >> future, or get defensive about my profession. >> >> I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions >> fairly frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the >> occasional short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a >> team meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. >> >> The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of >> communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to >> communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other >> departments (sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. >> >> IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it >> makes me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. >> >> >> Richard G. Combs >> Senior Technical Writer
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
OK, can we agree that if we didn't want the responsibility we would not apply for the job? If we did want the responsibility, how would we meet the challenge? I worked with a group of 50 engineers and 8 automotive technicians. I was tasked with improving the content provided by engineers. This required establishing relationships and and processes. To be sure, some engineers were more willing than others. I created standards, provided examples and worked with people one-on-one. The automotive technicians all became technical writers with their own area of automotive speciality.Years later, they are all employed as technicians who write for auto manufacturers. Some engineers improved greatly, some not at all. My performance reviews always included a recognition of the improvements or how I would handle the challenge. I was responsible for tracking individual improvements and shared the progress with my supervisor. He developed a role for me as the documentation approver. I could reject poor content if I made solid recommendations for improvement. This position was one of the best I've ever had and I learned a ton. Did every engineer become a stellar technical writer? No. Did most improve their writing? Yes. Did the overall technical documentation improve? Based on usability scores and user feedback, absolutely. Call me Silly, but it would have been my loss if I had dismissed the position because I thought it was hopeless. We make our won choices. Mollye Barrett ClearPath, LLC 414-331-1378 | mol...@clearpath.cc | www.clearpath.cc http://www.linkedin.com/in/mollyebarrett | http://www.twitter.com/mollye Skype: mollyebarrett On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Writer wrote: > What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech > writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with > very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or who > even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were > motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not > reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they are > told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. > > IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just > because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, it > doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would > willingly cooperate with such "coaching". > > Nadine > > -- > *From:* "Combs, Richard" > *To:* Writer ; framers > *Sent:* Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:52:17 PM > *Subject:* RE: Scary responsibility in job ad > > Writer wrote: > > > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad > > for a technical writer: > > > > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > > > > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. > > I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. > Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without > seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this > specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my > future, or get defensive about my profession. > > I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions > fairly frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the > occasional short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a > team meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. > > > The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of > communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to > communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other > departments (sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. > > IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it > makes me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. > > > Richard G. Combs > Senior Technical Writer > Polycom, Inc. > richard.co...@polycom.com > 303-223-5111 > -- > rgco...@gmail.com > 303-903-6372 > -- > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to framers as mol...@clearpath.cc. > > Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/mollye%40clearpath.cc > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
There's always beer involved. ;) But no, this was a full-on collaboration that I initiated with the engineering VP and the product architect. It took some convincing, but a few flow charts later and we were good to go. You have to cover all bases and have a contingency for everyone on all sides should something slip (and outline consequences). But it's nothing that isn't possible to plan for, and is exactly the type of work anyone in any kind of project management/leadership role should be doing anyway. But beer... there were a couple of fellow homebrewers on the engineering side whom I knew, and a bunch of cooking nuts/foodies as well. So there was rapport there from the beginning with quite a few folks. I would get hops from one guy and return to him beer made with them. Another team member (a writer) kept bees, and I'd return to him beer made with the honey. But that was all really aside from the main push. I had little rapport initially (in fact, some tension) with the product architect going into it, but through planning and negotiation we were able to work things out. We were never buddies, but we ironed out the wrinkles in our working relationship. Of course, the entire project team (locals, anyway) would meet up every 2 weeks for an after-work pressure venting session at a local bar. Working 70-90 hours a week takes its toll (company tweaked its work from home policy and even paid for our home broadband), and it was nice to have that kind of break in a relaxed environment. Beer, wings, billiards, darts, and even karaoke. All good. On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Jeff Coatsworth wrote: > Ooooh! They won't fall for your Jedi mind-tricks! I bet there's beer involved > in this somewhere, right Bill? -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
Ooooh! They won't fall for your Jedi mind-tricks! I bet there's beer involved in this somewhere, right Bill? -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Bill Swallow Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:15 AM To: Writer Cc: framers Subject: Re: Scary responsibility in job ad Don't you see that this is a mirror argument? Let me rephrase what you're saying: > What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the engineer, > rather than where it belongs...on the writer. I've worked with very few > writers who wanted to improve their involvement in product development or who > even cared. Most writers I've worked with just want to do what they are told > to do; they don't want to get into the nuts and bolts. IMHO, this requirement > is setting we engineers up for failure. Just because the company wants the us > to communicate more effectively, it doesn't mean that the writers want to, > are motivated to, or would willingly cooperate with such "coaching". < Don't look at it as a burden, but an opportunity to collaborate. Yes, engineers work very differently from writers, but a writer's honed skills at audience analysis can certainly be reverse-engineered to look at author-analysis, see what their workflow and workloads are like, and work WITH them to develop means for improvement. On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Writer wrote: > What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech > writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with > very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or who > even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were > motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not > reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they are > told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. > IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just > because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, it > doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would > willingly cooperate with such "coaching". > Nadine -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as jeff.coatswo...@jonassoftware.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jeff.coatsworth%40jonassoftware.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Don't you see that this is a mirror argument? Let me rephrase what you're saying: > What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the engineer, > rather than where it belongs...on the writer. I've worked with very few > writers who wanted to improve their involvement in product development or who > even cared. Most writers I've worked with just want to do what they are told > to do; they don't want to get into the nuts and bolts. IMHO, this requirement > is setting we engineers up for failure. Just because the company wants the us > to communicate more effectively, it doesn't mean that the writers want to, > are motivated to, or would willingly cooperate with such "coaching". < Don't look at it as a burden, but an opportunity to collaborate. Yes, engineers work very differently from writers, but a writer's honed skills at audience analysis can certainly be reverse-engineered to look at author-analysis, see what their workflow and workloads are like, and work WITH them to develop means for improvement. On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Writer wrote: > What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech > writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with > very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or who > even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were > motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not > reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they are > told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. > IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just > because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, it > doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would > willingly cooperate with such "coaching". > Nadine -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Agreed. I did this in a former role. We had a huge API/SDK that required documentation. It would have taken 20 tech writers to meet the target release date, as there were 40 engineers working non-stop on it world-wide. So instead we added to the definition of "code complete" a documentation item. Every class, method, property, etc. needed to have documentation in the code for it. Upon check-in, both QA and Docs would unleash hell on it to make sure it worked and the element was well-documened. Along with the code complete change, we also wrote up specific instructions to feed the specs on exactly how things should be documented. In the beginning we had some gems come by as documentation. My favorite was "Microsoft made me do it." But with some coaching and explanation, we soon had all engineers writing pretty darn good documentation for the SDK/API. In fact, many caught on to the point of it and loved documenting their code. Best quote from an engineer: "This is great! I get to explain how what I create applies to the whole of the product, and I can help developers using this code to create some great application features!" Yes, young padowan, that is the point. :) The process was heavy on overhead at the beginning, but any new process is as you ramp up. Many hours were spent in the first month reviewing code docs, editing or punting back to the engineers, and coaching them on what to write. But as the project went on, both the writers and the engineers learned what to expect from each other (as a group and individually), and we soon learned whose docs to pretty much trust out of the gate and whose to pay special attention to. The project was a success, as we documented over 12,000 elements inside of 4 months, in addition to guides and such. We even implemented the whole thing (guides, code reference and all) as a complete context-sensitive Help system within Visual Studio (F1 on an element to learn how to use it and see what works with it). So yeah, not a scary or funny item to list in a job description. It's actually very pertinent and applicable in many situations. On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Combs, Richard wrote: > Writer wrote: > >> A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad >> for a technical writer: >> >> "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" >> >> It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. > > I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. > Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without > seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this > specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my > future, or get defensive about my profession. -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
What I object to is putting the burden and responsibility on the tech writer, rather than where it belongs...on the engineer. I've worked with very few engineers who wanted to improve their communication skills or who even cared. Richard, in your case, you were asked by people who were motivated to learn, and that's great; however, your experiences do not reflect mine. Most engineers I've worked with just want to do what they are told to do; they don't want to discuss it or describe it. IMHO, this requirement is setting the tech writer up for failure. Just because the company wants the engineers to communicate more effectively, it doesn't mean that the engineers want to, are motivated to, or would willingly cooperate with such "coaching". Nadine > >From: "Combs, Richard" >To: Writer ; framers >Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:52:17 PM >Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad > >Writer wrote: > >> A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad >> for a technical writer: >> >> "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" >> >> It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. > >I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. >Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without >seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this >specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my >future, or get defensive about my profession. > >I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions fairly >frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the occasional >short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a team >meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. > >The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of >communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to >communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other departments >(sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. > >IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it makes >me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. > > >Richard G. Combs >Senior Technical Writer >Polycom, Inc. >richard.co...@polycom.com >303-223-5111 >-- >rgco...@gmail.com >303-903-6372 >-- > > > > > > > > >___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
Writer wrote: > A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad > for a technical writer: > > "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > > It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. I'm really surprised at the overwhelmingly negative reaction to this ad. Coaching engineers is cited as just one of the responsibilities; without seeing what the others are, I have no opinion of the ad as a whole, but this specific responsibility certainly doesn't make me laugh, cringe, fear for my future, or get defensive about my profession. I'm asked (yes, often by engineers) language/grammar/writing questions fairly frequently, and in the past when things weren't so busy, I did the occasional short presentation on some language/writing issue at the end of a team meeting. These were well received, and I often got follow-up questions. The engineers I know are intelligent people who understand the value of communicating clearly. They want to improve their writing skills in order to communicate more effectively with each other, managers, and other departments (sales, support, etc.), as well as with me. IMHO, sharing what I know with people who see the value of learning it makes me more valuable. And it's rewarding for me, not cringe-inducing. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richard.co...@polycom.com 303-223-5111 -- rgco...@gmail.com 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
Just my opinion but I think engineers gravitate to that field because they
relate better to things than to people.
They’re great with formulas but lousy when communicating with us mere mortals.
Where I work, most of the engineers speak English as a second language.
Occasionally ESL engineers try to “correct” my work by introducing spelling and
grammatical errors, incomprehensible sentences, or information placed where the
user would never find it.
Typically a citation from the Chicago Manual of Style cools their enthusiasm.
Daniel
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 10:23 AM
To: Eichelberger, Mark; framers
Subject: Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Or if the company absolutely feels that the engineers need to learn to
communicate better, put the onus on them, not on the tech writers. Make it a
part of the engineers' objectives, pay for courses, get the engineers to
demonstrate that their skills have improved. If they fail, then no soup for
them!
Nadine
From: "Eichelberger, Mark"
To: framers
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17:41 PM
Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
I don’t think this should ever be the responsibility of a tech writer,
but it does indicate why they *need* a tech writer.I say let the engineers
be engineers and let the tech writers be tech writers.
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM
To: framers
Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad
A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad
for a technical writer:
"coach engineers to improve their writing skills"
It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures.
Nadine
___
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Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Shall I forward the ad to you? ;-) Nadine > >From: Greg. Eckrich >To: Writer >Cc: "Eichelberger, Mark" ; framers > >Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:34:45 PM >Subject: Re: Scary responsibility in job ad > > >Sounds like a fine opportunity for an instructional Designer! Have my MS-Ed, >Instructional Design in Dec. [Sorry, could not resist the opportunity for a >shameless bit of self-promotion!] > > >Greg. Eckrich > > > >On 6Oct2011, at 12:22 PM, Writer wrote: > >Or if the company absolutely feels that the engineers need to learn to >communicate better, put the onus on them, not on the tech writers. Make it a >part of the engineers' objectives, pay for courses, get the engineers to >demonstrate that their skills have improved. If they fail, then no soup for >them! >> >> >>Nadine >> >> >> >> >>>________________ >>>From: "Eichelberger, Mark" >>>To: framers >>>Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17:41 PM >>>Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad >>> >>> >>>I don’t think this should ever be the responsibility of a tech writer, but >>>it does indicate why they *need* a tech writer. I say let the engineers >>>be engineers and let the tech writers be tech writers. >>> >>>From:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com >>>[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer >>>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM >>>To: framers >>>Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad >>> >>>A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a >>>technical writer: >>> >>>"coach engineers to improve their writing skills" >>> >>>It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. >>> >>>Nadine >>>___ >>> >>> >>>You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca. >>> >>>Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. >>> >>>To unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com >>>or visit >>>http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca >>> >>>Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit >>>http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >>> >>> >>>___ >> >> >>You are currently subscribed to framers as gweckr...@wowway.com. >> >>Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. >> >>To unsubscribe send a blank email to >>framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com >>or visit >>http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gweckrich%40wowway.com >> >>Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit >>http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >> > > >___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Scary responsibility in job ad
Or if the company absolutely feels that the engineers need to learn to communicate better, put the onus on them, not on the tech writers. Make it a part of the engineers' objectives, pay for courses, get the engineers to demonstrate that their skills have improved. If they fail, then no soup for them! Nadine > >From: "Eichelberger, Mark" >To: framers >Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17:41 PM >Subject: RE: Scary responsibility in job ad > > >I don’t think this should ever be the responsibility of a tech writer, but it >does indicate why they *need* a tech writer. I say let the engineers be >engineers and let the tech writers be tech writers. > >From:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com >[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer >Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM >To: framers >Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad > >A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a >technical writer: > >"coach engineers to improve their writing skills" > >It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. > >Nadine >___ > > >You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca. > >Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to >framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com >or visit >http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > >Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit >http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > >___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
I don't think this should ever be the responsibility of a tech writer, but it does indicate why they *need* a tech writer.I say let the engineers be engineers and let the tech writers be tech writers. From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM To: framers Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a technical writer: "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. Nadine ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Scary responsibility in job ad
Might as well ask for "supervise monkeys on typewriters" From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:51 PM To: framers Subject: OT: Scary responsibility in job ad A local company listed this as one of the responsibilities in a job ad for a technical writer: "coach engineers to improve their writing skills" It makes me laugh and cringe in equal measures. Nadine ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
