Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Thanks everyone for all your responses. I've been away, so I missed the last few responses. Some updates: I should have mentioned that the original docs are in Word, not Frame, so that kind of conversion is not applicable in this case, but the information provided is good to know for future reference. I should also mention that the doc set is two versions of a user doc (mostly identical, differences easily handled by conditional text, one short chapter is completely different between the two, handled by books) that runs about 70-75 pages in Word, and a quick start guide (about 10 pages). Child's play! The client is still determined that the priority is (1) open source, (2) Mac, (3) Framemaker on Mac. I didn't realize that OpenOffice Writer did conditional text. I found an article that compared it pretty favourable with Framemaker (http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/39406), but it was written in 2004. I didn't find much (anything) more recent. Why is that? It seems so promising based on the article. Has anyone out there actually used Writer for user docs? My colleague, who will be the one working on this project, was playing around with Writer, and sees that it's obviously not on a par with Framemaker, but it will probably suffice for this client if that's their insistence. Scribus does text insets, but not conditional text. I had planned that the document set would use both features, but if we really have to use either Scribus or Writer, then conditional text is more important. We can work around the text inset requirement. Laurie ~ You also mentioned wanting an open source tool. As Peter said, there's no open source replacement for FrameMaker with all of its features. However, I think that OpenOffice Writer is remarkably good and has many advanced features. It does not have text inset features, but it does have conditional text and variables, but not on par with FrameMaker. For basic PDF publishing of long technical documents, OpenOffice Writer is far superior to Word and comparable with FrameMaker. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??
Hello Framers, I am going to chime in here regarding InDesign scripting. InDesign offers several scripting options: AppleScript for the Mac version, Visual Basic for the PC version, and JavaScript for both. Since these languages have other applications, there are plenty of resources for learning them. In my experience, however, performance can be a major issue. Well-written JavaScript scripts can be painfully slow in InDesign, especially on long documents. For most scripting tasks that I have tackled, a FrameMaker/FrameScript workflow runs circles around a similar InDesign/JavaScript workflow. If your documentation process can benefit from automation, and you can do without InDesign's unique features, you are usually better off staying with FrameMaker and FrameScript. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. r...@frameexpert.com 585-659-8267 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??
Generally, unless you are using heavy XML (InDesign does XML but not as advanced) or DITA (which ID does not support), it is a heated race. If you are doing advanced XML or DITA, then Frame is the way to go. Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other condition features are similar. ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book. ID supports advanced OpenType formatting (and OT fonts are cross-platform, so you could use ID on Windows). Other notes... As mentioned, ID is more sophisticated in the typography and layout departments. ID has GREP find/change, GREP supported formatting, nested styles. ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts, and does not have run-in heads. InDesign's table styles are more complicated, but more advanced above Frame's. ID is more advanced when importing Excel files, plus ID can link to Excel files for auto-updates. ID's table styles do not contain any geometry (size) information, but there is a plug-in available for that, and to not generate automatic table titles as part of the table style. Frame's variables are slightly more advanced, especially when concerning using character styles. (ID does not have the table continuation variable) InDesign has a separate product called InCopy for allowing others to edit text while the InDesign file is being worked on. (InDesign can handle all the text edits too.) InCopy can be used to generate new text, as can Word. InDesign's PDF export functions are more advanced. (Current versions of CS3 and CS4 do not have a size issue with PDFs.) This is not a complete comparison by any means, but should be enough (with the other posts) to form an opinion. There is a converter for MIF files to ID at: http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid Although I have not updated it to Frame 9 and IDCS4 (my bad), I have a comparison chart at: http://www.ideastraining.com/PDFs/SelectingDTPprogram.pdf As a Mac user (and certified Apple Consultant), I would take a hard look at using ID on Windows with OT fonts to keep the client happy. That being said, I use Frame with Boot Camp and Parallels all the time. As long as the client has a reasonably fast computer with 4-8 GB RAM, they should be fine. If I didn't address any specific issue, please let me know. David Creamer IDEAS Training Consultation http://www.IDEAStraining.com Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign, InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker Authorized Quark Training Provider Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, FileMaker Authorized Trainer ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:49 AM, David Creamer ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote: [snipped] ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book. One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries second-level entries. For example, Flora - first level green plants - second level grass - third level spinach - third level zucchini - third level yellow plants - second level etc... Fauna - first level two-legged - second level chickens - third level primates - third level four-legged - second level cats - third level dogs - third level zebras - third level Then, cut and paste the sections of the generated index. Also, enter a feature request for multiple indexes at http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform [snipped] ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts, and does not have run-in heads. in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads, straddle heads, and run-in heads. [snipped] If your workflow needs multiple indexes and side, straddle, and run-in paragraphs, FM is the simpler way to achieve them. [snipped] Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other condition features are similar. [snipped] I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to their former size probably would need the script to create and refer to user variables that store the original row height. InDesign's highly customizable by scripting; there are many free ones, and often participants on the Adobe InDesign scripting forum will whip one up for free, if their interest is piqued and they have the time. There are also folks who develop custom scripts. But, again, this is more complicated than FM's approach. Once again, request the feature at: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform HTH Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. InDesign vs. alternatives??
ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book. One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries second-level entries. [snipped] I've heard of that work-around, but did not mention it as I as making a direct comparison between the programs. ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts, and does not have run-in heads. in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads, straddle heads, and run-in heads. Thank you for remembering in-tools--I should have mentioned them. Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other condition features are similar. [snipped] I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to their former size probably would need the script to create and refer to user variables that store the original row height. Interesting idea--I wrote about a similar work-around for Layers Magazine a while back for faking condition in-line text in CS3 (which could be done without a script), but the script idea is interesting. I've been suggesting to my clients that if possible, put all the unconditional content in a separate table, then the conditional content is their own tables directly following the unconditional. Then adjust the style settings to butt the tables together. David Creamer IDEAS Training Consultation http://www.IDEAStraining.com Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign, InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker Authorized Quark Training Provider Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, FileMaker Authorized Trainer ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Hi Laurie, Not a heavy duty FM user; however, run FM 7 under Parallels w/XP on a MACBook Pro. Typed and edited a 300+ page book for a friend recently. No complaints. Gregory Eckrich, 708-862-7180 gweckr...@wowway.com On 5-May - 2009, at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little wrote: Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto! I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open- source) solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to present. Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to assemble a good argument for not using it :-D From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform. Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and Indesign? Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc, Laurie Little Words That Work www.words-tw.com 905-947-1557 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as gweckr...@wowway.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/ gweckrich%40wowway.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
I've added a few notes to Jared's comments. On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jared Crawford jare...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi, Laurie. since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc. It sounds like you have existing content in FrameMaker format, which is not a deal breaker but it does take time to put such content into InDesign files. If you want to talk your client out of using InDesign, you should probably point to the effort needed to convert the existing content and InDesign's learning curve. Depending on the existing layouts, MIF Filter, a dtptools.com ID plug-in, may solve the conversion issues with varying degrees of fuss and attention. You can download and use it as much as you like, to evaluate its conversions for your needs; it's not time-limited, nor crippled in conversion features. However, to save, print, export to PDF, or otherwise use the converted ID files, you need to buy page credits. The more credits you buy at one time, the less the unit cost, like phone minutes. There's also a free FM-to-MIF batch conversion tool that's not crippled or limited in any way. In my InDesign Magazine review of MIF Filter, I gave it high marks for accurately converting unfancy well-constructed FM documents. However, some FM features have no exact ID counterparts; for example, run-in paragraphs and side headings. These are converted with whatever fudging is necessary to visually match the FM layouts. If editing the converted documents causes text to reflow, you may need to give individual attention to these simulated FM features. Template design is non-trivial. If you have an existing FrameMaker template, it could save a lot of time to just continue using it. One affordable conversion strategy might be to purchase enough page credits to convert the FM template(s) with MIF Filter, and work it (them) into shape. You can save FM content as RTF, or convert it to RTF with MIF2GO, and place the RTF into your customized ID version of the FM template(s). I am a technical writer and used FrameMaker for about ten years before my current position, where I use InDesign CS3. Based on my experience with both tools and what I've read about InDesign CS4, I agree with Peter and Art's perspective. HTH Regards, Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Hi, Laurie: I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product. Briefly: * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's. * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's. * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's. * ID's variables compare well to FM's. * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations. * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp. However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of conversion to work with a help-creation tool. * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the same level as FM's structured authoring features. On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2 application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp Requires a separate partition and can't switch between concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and Windows without a restart. If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its features and reliability, we'd all know about it. HTH Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto! I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source) solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to present. Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to assemble a good argument for not using it :-D From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform. Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and Indesign? Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc, Laurie Little Words That Work www.words-tw.com 905-947-1557 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable. So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of: - If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a choice use Frame or - Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform you prefer ? If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy! Laurie -Original Message- From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM To: Laurie Little Cc: Framers list (E-mail) Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives?? Hi, Laurie: I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product. Briefly: * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's. * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's. * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's. * ID's variables compare well to FM's. * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations. * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp. However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of conversion to work with a help-creation tool. * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the same level as FM's structured authoring features. On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2 application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp Requires a separate partition and can't switch between concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and Windows without a restart. If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its features and reliability, we'd all know about it. HTH Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto! I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source) solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to present. Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to assemble a good argument for not using it :-D From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform. Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and Indesign? Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc, Laurie Little Words That Work www.words-tw.com 905-947-1557 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Laurie, I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two programs -- what they're designed to do. * FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats. * InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work better in an environment where many pages use, or require, design-driven manual tweaking. I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the most important consideration is the type of content and the requirements of the end-user. Art Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable. So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of: - If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a choice use Frame or - Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform you prefer ? If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy! Laurie -Original Message- From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM To: Laurie Little Cc: Framers list (E-mail) Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives?? Hi, Laurie: I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product. Briefly: * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's. * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's. * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's. * ID's variables compare well to FM's. * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations. * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp. However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of conversion to work with a help-creation tool. * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the same level as FM's structured authoring features. On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2 application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp Requires a separate partition and can't switch between concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and Windows without a restart. If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its features and reliability, we'd all know about it. HTH Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto! I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source) solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to present. Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to assemble a good argument for not using it :-D From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform. Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do
RE: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
I totally agree with you Art - I'm just concerned that the client is focussing more on the platform than the right tool, and to avoid having him pick Indesign just because it runs native on the Mac and it *can* do conditional text etc. So all the points everyone is raising is adding to my arsenal :-D Of course, if the client will be using Indesign for other layout-driven purposes (brochures etc.) that we will not be involved in, then yes it makes more sense for them to choose the single tool that will address all their needs. They are not big enough and don't do enough documentation to warrant having both tools. Laurie -Original Message- From: Art Campbell [mailto:art.campb...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:47 PM To: Laurie Little Cc: Framers list (E-mail) Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives?? Laurie, I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two programs -- what they're designed to do. * FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats. * InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work better in an environment where many pages use, or require, design-driven manual tweaking. I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the most important consideration is the type of content and the requirements of the end-user. Art Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable. So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of: - If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a choice use Frame or - Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform you prefer ? If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy! Laurie -Original Message- From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM To: Laurie Little Cc: Framers list (E-mail) Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives?? Hi, Laurie: I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product. Briefly: * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's. * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's. * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's. * ID's variables compare well to FM's. * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations. * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp. However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of conversion to work with a help-creation tool. * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the same level as FM's structured authoring features. On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2 application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp Requires a separate partition and can't switch between concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and Windows without a restart. If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its features and reliability, we'd all know about it. HTH Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little llit...@words-tw.com wrote: Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto! I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between FM (via
Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
Hi, Dan: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Dan Harding dhard...@uiuc.edu wrote: I have used both FM and ID, but despite their feature set similarities, there is one monumental difference: With FM, every single command and every single action has a keyboard equivalent. Not so with InDesign. With all respect, ID for a number of releases has had customizable keyboard shortcuts. It ships with a QuarkXpress and PageMaker shortcut, as well as a default set of its own. The Quick Apply feature in ID CS3 and CS4 opens with the shortcut Ctrl/Cmd+Enter/Return, and displays a scrollable/typing-sensitive list with almost EVERY command on EVERY menu, and some that aren't on any menu. Unlike FM's typing sensitivity that selects commands whose initial characters you type, Quick Apply selects commands that contain your typed characters anywhere within the command name, so you don't have to type all the characters from the main menu's name through sub menus until you reach the command. You can define your own set of ID keyboard shortcuts that are close to the FM mnemonics, if you like, as well as use Quick Apply to navigate its list, to work from the KB in ID as efficiently as in FM. The main difference is that if you create shortcuts similar to FM's, you won't have to learn ID's command names where they differ from FM. When it comes to document construction, I'm a keyboard junkie. I *hate* using the mouse; it gets in my way. Since I know all the keyboard shortcuts in FM, I can fly like nobody's business. ID offers multiple windows on the same document, including a text-based story editor window that synchronizes its selection to the WYSIWIG window, so you can cut, copy, paste, and move content from a source visible from a visible window to a destination in another visible window, and, yes, you can do it all mouselessly. You might want to give ID another look. (Another reason I'm avoiding upgrading to 9.) FM really is unique in that respect... Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
