RE: FM v. RoboHelp
Is any of your content in Frame-unsupported languages? That's the only reason I can see for not choosing Frame first, although it's definitely not an argument in favor of RoboHelp since that has even fewer language options than Frame. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com] On Behalf Of Lin Surasky Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:41 PM To: Rene Stephenson; John Sgammato; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp Very true. However, I didn't mention that there are 4 writers on the team who ARE using RH to create content, and not only aren't complaining, but one of them will fight as hard to keep RH as I will to keep FM. We're in different countries, with an international audience, so it's divided as to what our customers want. Which is why I think FM is perfect: We can delliver BOTH PDF and CHM easily. I guess I just need to keep repeating that... From: Rene Stephenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:37 AM To: John Sgammato; Lin Surasky; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp Agreed, John. Let the expert decide the appropriate tool. However, it may be helpful to provide a quick synopsis of the strengths and weaknesses of each program, followed by audience analysis, customer expectations, and deliverable requirements, and then by drawing the inevitable conclusion. Sometimes the failure to understand the tools and the failure to understand the skillset in our trade seem to foster assumptions that only enlightenment can silence. ;-) Rene Stephenson John Sgammato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're right on, Lin. You know the tools you need to produce your deliverables. I don't tell my plumber what kind of wrench to use... john ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/acarrico%40adamsglob alization.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
Why on earth would you want to go buy a filter wrench to change the oil in your car when you have a perfectly good chain saw sitting in the garage? Purchase the right software for the job and don't let a deadline or anything else pass you by because your tools slowed you down. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lin Surasky Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:10 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: FM v. RoboHelp No, it's not a typo. No, we're not being asked to use Word The person in charge of quality for our company does not seem to understand why we don't use RoboHelp to create content for our software manuals. After all, every office has RoboHelp (not the Adobe version), so what's the big deal? To me, the big deal is that we deliver PDFs, not CHMs, to our customers, and they like the layout. And it's faster to work in FM than it is in RH. My rule is, if I have to provide a TOC, it's a book. If I'm providing a book, I'm working in FM. If they decide they ALSO want HTML or CHM files, I can do that too, with FrameMaker and MIF2Go. I can't create a CHM in RH and then effortlessly have a pretty PDF to give our other customers, or can I? For the record, we are not currently delivering ANY online help. We deliver User Guides, Admin Guides, Release Notes, and whitepapers/reports. All are electronic -- no printing except for the pages our users want to print for themselves. Am I wrong to stick so stubbornly to my FM process? FM Process: Source content created and maintained in FM book. For delivery, PDFs are generated with live x-refs/links where necessary using Acrobat. If users want or need HTML, MIF2Go is ready to -- er, go. (No one in the US has EVER asked for a CHM, but if it should happen, use HTML Help Workshop to compile the HTML Help from MIF2Go.) RH Process: Source content created and maintained in RH. For delivery, PDFs are generated and look awful because there's no clean page layout formatting OR CHMs are delivered. Does it even make sense to deliver CHM for browser-based software being accessed over a network, since CHMs need to be accessed from the hard drive (unless you get into registry edits, which is NOT an option for us.) (We're also not doing much file-swapping amongst writers; we all kind of do our own thing, and there's not much room for content reuse right now, but still they want everyone to follow the same process...) Ideas? Feedback? I promised I would get opinions from the experts over here, as I apparently don't qualify as one myself... So what would you do, wise ones? Lin ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jsgammato%40imprivat a.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jharvey%40cambridges oft.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
I think you're right on, Lin. You know the tools you need to produce your deliverables. I don't tell my plumber what kind of wrench to use... john -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lin Surasky Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:10 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: FM v. RoboHelp No, it's not a typo. No, we're not being asked to use Word The person in charge of quality for our company does not seem to understand why we don't use RoboHelp to create content for our software manuals. After all, every office has RoboHelp (not the Adobe version), so what's the big deal? To me, the big deal is that we deliver PDFs, not CHMs, to our customers, and they like the layout. And it's faster to work in FM than it is in RH. My rule is, if I have to provide a TOC, it's a book. If I'm providing a book, I'm working in FM. If they decide they ALSO want HTML or CHM files, I can do that too, with FrameMaker and MIF2Go. I can't create a CHM in RH and then effortlessly have a pretty PDF to give our other customers, or can I? For the record, we are not currently delivering ANY online help. We deliver User Guides, Admin Guides, Release Notes, and whitepapers/reports. All are electronic -- no printing except for the pages our users want to print for themselves. Am I wrong to stick so stubbornly to my FM process? FM Process: Source content created and maintained in FM book. For delivery, PDFs are generated with live x-refs/links where necessary using Acrobat. If users want or need HTML, MIF2Go is ready to -- er, go. (No one in the US has EVER asked for a CHM, but if it should happen, use HTML Help Workshop to compile the HTML Help from MIF2Go.) RH Process: Source content created and maintained in RH. For delivery, PDFs are generated and look awful because there's no clean page layout formatting OR CHMs are delivered. Does it even make sense to deliver CHM for browser-based software being accessed over a network, since CHMs need to be accessed from the hard drive (unless you get into registry edits, which is NOT an option for us.) (We're also not doing much file-swapping amongst writers; we all kind of do our own thing, and there's not much room for content reuse right now, but still they want everyone to follow the same process...) Ideas? Feedback? I promised I would get opinions from the experts over here, as I apparently don't qualify as one myself... So what would you do, wise ones? Lin ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jsgammato%40imprivat a.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
THANK YOU!! As I said, it's all because of cost. Everyone has RH already, but not everyone has FM, and they're afraid of the learning curve. Hello? We're documenting SOFTWARE. That means we have to be able to learn a program quickly in order to document it correctly, no? So why would we be unable to learn a new tool for our jobs? Ugh. I just don't know how to get through to these people, and part of it also is that I'm not in direct communication with them. I'm feeding information to someone else, who is already on my side, but needs research/data/arguments. Thanks for the support! :) -Original Message- From: John Sgammato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:30 AM To: Lin Surasky; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp I think you're right on, Lin. You know the tools you need to produce your deliverables. I don't tell my plumber what kind of wrench to use... john ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
Agreed, John. Let the expert decide the appropriate tool. However, it may be helpful to provide a quick synopsis of the strengths and weaknesses of each program, followed by audience analysis, customer expectations, and deliverable requirements, and then by drawing the inevitable conclusion. Sometimes the failure to understand the tools and the failure to understand the skillset in our trade seem to foster assumptions that only enlightenment can silence. ;-) Rene Stephenson John Sgammato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're right on, Lin. You know the tools you need to produce your deliverables. I don't tell my plumber what kind of wrench to use... john ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: FM v. RoboHelp
John Sgammato wrote: I think you're right on, Lin. You know the tools you need to produce your deliverables. I don't tell my plumber what kind of wrench to use... john Sounds more like a case of I don't tell my plumber which voltmeter to use... Does Mr./Ms. Quality understand why Help is in the RoboHelp name? Why on earth would you choose such a tool to create a whole list of deliverables *none of which* is Help?? (Because when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails...) You're right to stick to your guns, Lin -- you're using the best tool there is for the job you have to do. It would be very foolish and counterproductive indeed to standardize on RH for your deliverables. Good luck! stuart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lin Surasky Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:10 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: FM v. RoboHelp No, it's not a typo. No, we're not being asked to use Word The person in charge of quality for our company does not seem to understand why we don't use RoboHelp to create content for our software manuals. After all, every office has RoboHelp (not the Adobe version), so what's the big deal? To me, the big deal is that we deliver PDFs, not CHMs, to our customers, and they like the layout. And it's faster to work in FM than it is in RH. My rule is, if I have to provide a TOC, it's a book. If I'm providing a book, I'm working in FM. If they decide they ALSO want HTML or CHM files, I can do that too, with FrameMaker and MIF2Go. I can't create a CHM in RH and then effortlessly have a pretty PDF to give our other customers, or can I? For the record, we are not currently delivering ANY online help. We deliver User Guides, Admin Guides, Release Notes, and whitepapers/reports. All are electronic -- no printing except for the pages our users want to print for themselves. Am I wrong to stick so stubbornly to my FM process? FM Process: Source content created and maintained in FM book. For delivery, PDFs are generated with live x-refs/links where necessary using Acrobat. If users want or need HTML, MIF2Go is ready to -- er, go. (No one in the US has EVER asked for a CHM, but if it should happen, use HTML Help Workshop to compile the HTML Help from MIF2Go.) RH Process: Source content created and maintained in RH. For delivery, PDFs are generated and look awful because there's no clean page layout formatting OR CHMs are delivered. Does it even make sense to deliver CHM for browser-based software being accessed over a network, since CHMs need to be accessed from the hard drive (unless you get into registry edits, which is NOT an option for us.) (We're also not doing much file-swapping amongst writers; we all kind of do our own thing, and there's not much room for content reuse right now, but still they want everyone to follow the same process...) Ideas? Feedback? I promised I would get opinions from the experts over here, as I apparently don't qualify as one myself... So what would you do, wise ones? Lin ___ -- Stuart Rogers Technical Communicator Phoenix Geophysics Limited Toronto, ON, Canada +1 (416) 491-7340 x 325 srogers phoenix-geophysics com Developers explain How the Product Works. Technical writers explain How to Work the Product. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
You could really stir the pot by throwing ePublisher in the mix as a single-sourcing solution. g There's an import utility available for ePublisher that can take any RH project and convert it to MIF, retaining links and mapping formats as you determine in the interface. Depending on the size of the RH project and whether there are multiple RH projects to merge into a single-source ePub project with multiple versions/translations/localization as output, it could take hours or a few weeks to complete... BUT it would be a one-time hit. Then set it up with AutoMap to create the PDFs in sequence whenever you'd like (even while you're asleep). Just food for thought...conceding, of course, that Mif2Go is more cost-effective. Rene Lin Surasky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very true. However, I didn't mention that there are 4 writers on the team who ARE using RH to create content, and not only aren't complaining, but one of them will fight as hard to keep RH as I will to keep FM. We're in different countries, with an international audience, so it's divided as to what our customers want. Which is why I think FM is perfect: We can delliver BOTH PDF and CHM easily. I guess I just need to keep repeating that... ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
That particular guide was only about 240 pages, which is about half the size of one of the ones I currently managed as one output of 5 produced using ePub/FM to single-source and do all 5 outputs in less time than I used to spend on 1 CHM and converting to PDF (throught the formatting purgatory required RHWordPDF) for the project half its size. Based on that experience, I'd say it takes 4 times as long to do the same amount of work using RH if you have to produce PDF. The thing is, it's a part of EVERY production cycle. With FM, you set it up once and you're done, just handle the page formatting as you grow the content. Sometimes I'd run into a bug in Word that would cause all sorts of nightmares with formatting, and if you've tried to format anything in Word recently, remember how you have to futz with stuff constantly, going back to check that something you did later didn't break some formatting you'd done earlier because of Word's quirky format interdependencies and autonumbering issues. Lin Surasky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See, these are the kinds of numbers I needed. I know there's a time difference between the two, but how much is the question. Thanks for helping with that. I never would have guessed 3-5 days! For how big a guide? 60 pages? 200 pages? (Once it's PDFed, of course.) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rs.com] On Behalf Of Rene Stephenson Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:59 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp The last time I had to use RH to create printable output, there was a substantial amount of clean-up work involved each time between creating the Word version with all the print-friendly stuff like continuation statements on pages, etc., and then output to PDF and all the security stuff. For a single user guide, I would spend 3 to 5 full days just getting it into PDF from RH. Time is money. You could estimate the amount of time, factor that by your wage (plus the standard fudge factor for dealing with program bugs and crashes), and then factor that by the number of releases per document quarterly. That should be staggering enough to make your case clear to the QA and management mindset. Rene ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lin.surask y%40retalix.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: FM v. RoboHelp
Hi Lin, Your Quality person is way off mark. Sounds to me like you know what you are talking about. By the by, in the odd case where I've been required to submit HTML files (for help systems), I've also used FM - Mif2Go with great results. But, HTML is rare for me. The majority of my deliverables are PDFs (Operating Manuals, Field Service Manuals, Release Notes, Admin Guides, etc.) and FrameMaker is clearly the superior tool for creating those graphically rich documents with hyperlinked TOCs and Indexes and hyperlinked cross-references in text (all the goodies we've come to expect in modern manuals), not to mention FM's Book feature making life-cycle management easy. Stick to your guns. FrameMaker is the right tool for you. Regards, Richard ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM v. RoboHelp
Just because the carpenter already owns a hammer is no reason to fail to consider a pneumatic nailer. Both may get the job done, but one is certainly superior to the other. Steve Cavanaugh Sr. Technical Writer NAT Seattle Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lin Surasky Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:22 PM To: Gagne, Bernard (Bolton) Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp No, I had the same thought. Just didn't know who to ask, as I'm sure no one will divulge such valuable information before its time. See, the thing we all keep forgetting (except the one to whom I'm answering) is that they want to keep RH because it's already paid for. So purchasing new licenses or upgrades isn't really an option, unless I can convince them to keep FM. And even then... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rs.com] On Behalf Of Gagne, Bernard (Bolton) Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:19 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp In all of this, one thought occurred to me and it regards the upcoming release of Frame 8 later this year. Since RoboHelp is now an Adobe product, what are the odds Adobe will drop WebWorks and adopt RH as the chosen output method for CHM with FrameMaker? It would seem an ideal solution, with Flare nipping at their heels. Did I just add more fuel to the fire? Berny Gagne Lead Writer Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. Bolton, Ontario, Canada -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rene Stephenson Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:02 PM To: Lin Surasky; John Sgammato; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: FM v. RoboHelp You could really stir the pot by throwing ePublisher in the mix as a single-sourcing solution. g There's an import utility available for ePublisher that can take any RH project and convert it to MIF, retaining links and mapping formats as you determine in the interface. Depending on the size of the RH project and whether there are multiple RH projects to merge into a single-source ePub project with multiple versions/translations/localization as output, it could take hours or a few weeks to complete... BUT it would be a one-time hit. Then set it up with AutoMap to create the PDFs in sequence whenever you'd like (even while you're asleep). Just food for thought...conceding, of course, that Mif2Go is more cost-effective. Rene Lin Surasky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very true. However, I didn't mention that there are 4 writers on the team who ARE using RH to create content, and not only aren't complaining, but one of them will fight as hard to keep RH as I will to keep FM. We're in different countries, with an international audience, so it's divided as to what our customers want. Which is why I think FM is perfect: We can delliver BOTH PDF and CHM easily. I guess I just need to keep repeating that... ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bgagne%40husky.ca Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lin.surask y%40retalix.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/scavanaugh%40nat-sea ttle.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
