RE: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications so that the changes reflected in the other application are rendered in that application's native method. So stated, roundtrip does not mean When I press the W key here, make a W in both places. This is purely speculative, but I bet the origin is in the UML world. That's the only place I've heard the term used where it actually makes sense. In UML, roundtrip describes a development environment functionality that enables a user to create a code block in one application that is rendered as a graphic element in another application, and create a graphic element that is rendered as a block of code. In UML, it's handy to see a graphic model of your modeling language code. It's likewise handy to create a new object in the graphic model, connect the new object to the existing structure, and have the development environment add the basic code AIBM. Roundtrip means that you are working on one thing that is rendered in more than one way. Apparently, Adobe marketing got hold of the term roundtrip. RoboHelp is an authoring and a limited-functionality publishing tool combined, where FrameMaker is an authoring tool. When you point RoboHelp to a FrameMaker project, RoboHelp creates it's own copy. The integration of the two is incomplete. The term roundtrip should not be used to describe the current functionality...Kelly. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Combs, Richard Sent: 2008-05-21 11:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg? Ben Hechter wrote: If you had to design roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp) for a constantly evolving product, would you: a) begin in Framemaker and export to Robohelp b) begin in Robohelp and export to Framemaker c) prototype in both and iterate as you go I'd pick (a), but I wouldn't try to (or _want_ to) roundtrip. I've never understood the attraction of this roundtripping concept. To me, it implies that you have not one, but two source files for your content. I want just one. I've used WebWorks (Publisher Pro in my case) and Mif2Go in the same manner that Linda Gallagher described. My source files are in FM, and WWP or M2G are tools for creating specific output/deliverables from them (just like Acrobat Distiller). I have to configure those tools for the output I want, but all content changes are made in FM. If I had the new Tech Comm Suite, I'd expect to work the same way. I wouldn't expect to edit in RH and roundtrip those changes back into FM any more than I'd expect to touch up text in Acrobat and roundtrip that back to FM, or make changes to WWP's .htm files and roundtrip those to FM. Even if the FM-RH integration supports that kind of workflow, it just doesn't strike me as a good way to work. Maybe because I'd almost certainly lose track of which source file is the most current. :-} If Jim Owens is right, and there are desirable help features that can't be implemented via FM, then these are shortcomings in the tools that ought to be put on the enhancement request list. But, IMHO, make the HTML roundtrippable should not be one of those requests. BTW, if you want to see what it takes to make HTML roundtrippable, have a look at the stuff MS Word creates. shudder / Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech. com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
If Jim Owens is right, and there are desirable help features that can't be implemented via FM, then these are shortcomings in the tools that ought to be put on the enhancement request list. But, IMHO, make the HTML roundtrippable should not be one of those requests. Every tool has it's shortcomings... One that was a deal-breaker for us when evaluating TCS was the ability to convert step by step procedures in FrameMaker to drop-down sections in RH. When we looked, the only way to implement drop-down text in RH was to edit and maintain the content in RH. Anyone know if this has changed? ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
As I have no idea what this conversation is about (great way to open a discussion in which I offer my thoughts!), I googled round-trip and the Wikipedia definition says something along the lines of (no, wait, it's actually a direct quote): The term round-trip is commonly used in document conversion particularly involving markup languages such as XML and SGML. A successful round-trip consists of converting a document in format A (docA) to one in format B (docB) and then back again to format A (docA′). If docA and docA′ are identical then there has been no information loss and the round-trip has been successful. More generally it means converting from any data representation and back again, including from one data structure to another. Have I added anything to the conversation? Or have I just told you what you already know? Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, Deirdre On 5/21/08, Kelly McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications so that the changes reflected in the other application are rendered in that application's native method. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
That sounds about right to me. In the DITA world, round-tripping might mean that you could write your document in Frame, export it to XML, edit the XML in some other editor, then bring it back into Frame with the edits intact. Single-sourcing, on the other hand, is a one-way operation where you create all your content in one place and then render it in various formats, possibly using conditional controls to vary the content included in each format. Deirdre Reagan wrote: As I have no idea what this conversation is about (great way to open a discussion in which I offer my thoughts!), I googled round-trip and the Wikipedia definition says something along the lines of (no, wait, it's actually a direct quote): The term round-trip is commonly used in document conversion particularly involving markup languages such as XML and SGML. A successful round-trip consists of converting a document in format A (docA) to one in format B (docB) and then back again to format A (docA$B!l(B). If docA and docA$B!l(B are identical then there has been no information loss and the round-trip has been successful. More generally it means converting from any data representation and back again, including from one data structure to another. Have I added anything to the conversation? Or have I just told you what you already know? Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, Deirdre On 5/21/08, Kelly McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications so that the changes reflected in the other application are rendered in that application's native method. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jowens%40magma.ca Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp -chickenoregg?
You left out the is between Dying and to. Thomas Schmidt -Original Message- Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, Deirdre The Customer Rules! You call, we JUMP! Please consider the environment before printing this email CONFIDENTIAL NOTICE: This e-mail message including attachments, if any, is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Unauthorized interception of this e-mail is a violation of federal criminal law. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications so that the changes reflected in the "other" application are rendered in that application's native method. So stated, roundtrip does not mean "When I press the W key here, make a W in both places." This is purely speculative, but I bet the origin is in the UML world. That's the only place I've heard the term used where it actually makes sense. In UML, roundtrip describes a development environment functionality that enables a user to create a code block in one application that is rendered as a graphic element in another application, and create a graphic element that is rendered as a block of code. In UML, it's handy to see a graphic model of your modeling language code. It's likewise handy to create a new object in the graphic model, connect the new object to the existing structure, and have the development environment add the basic code AIBM. Roundtrip means that you are working on one thing that is rendered in more than one way. Apparently, Adobe marketing got hold of the term roundtrip. RoboHelp is an authoring and a limited-functionality publishing tool combined, where FrameMaker is an authoring tool. When you point RoboHelp to a FrameMaker project, RoboHelp creates it's own copy. The integration of the two is incomplete. The term roundtrip should not be used to describe the current functionality...Kelly. > -Original Message- > From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Combs, Richard > Sent: 2008-05-21 11:57 > To: bhechter at objectives.ca; framers at lists.frameusers.com > Subject: RE: roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg? > > Ben Hechter wrote: > > > If you had to design roundtrip documentation and help > > (Framemaker/Robohelp) for a constantly evolving product, would you: > > > > a) begin in Framemaker and export to Robohelp > > b) begin in Robohelp and export to Framemaker > > c) prototype in both and iterate as you go > > I'd pick (a), but I wouldn't try to (or _want_ to) roundtrip. I've never > understood the attraction of this "roundtripping" concept. To me, it > implies that you have not one, but two "source" files for your content. > I want just one. > > I've used WebWorks (Publisher Pro in my case) and Mif2Go in the same > manner that Linda Gallagher described. My source files are in FM, and > WWP or M2G are tools for creating specific output/deliverables from them > (just like Acrobat Distiller). I have to configure those tools for the > output I want, but all content changes are made in FM. If I had the new > Tech Comm Suite, I'd expect to work the same way. > > I wouldn't expect to edit in RH and "roundtrip" those changes back into > FM any more than I'd expect to touch up text in Acrobat and "roundtrip" > that back to FM, or make changes to WWP's .htm files and "roundtrip" > those to FM. > > Even if the FM-RH integration supports that kind of workflow, it just > doesn't strike me as a good way to work. Maybe because I'd almost > certainly lose track of which "source" file is the most current. :-} > > If Jim Owens is right, and there are desirable help features that can't > be implemented via FM, then these are shortcomings in the tools that > ought to be put on the enhancement request list. But, IMHO, "make the > HTML roundtrippable" should not be one of those requests. > > BTW, if you want to see what it takes to make HTML "roundtrippable," > have a look at the stuff MS Word creates. > > Richard > > > Richard G. Combs > Senior Technical Writer > Polycom, Inc. > richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom > 303-223-5111 > -- > rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom > 303-777-0436 > -- > > > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdaniel at pavtech.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech. com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
> > If Jim Owens is right, and there are desirable help features that can't > be implemented via FM, then these are shortcomings in the tools that > ought to be put on the enhancement request list. But, IMHO, "make the > HTML roundtrippable" should not be one of those requests. > Every tool has it's shortcomings... One that was a deal-breaker for us when evaluating TCS was the ability to convert step by step procedures in FrameMaker to drop-down sections in RH. When we looked, the only way to implement drop-down text in RH was to edit and maintain the content in RH. Anyone know if this has changed?
roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
As I have no idea what this conversation is about (great way to open a discussion in which I offer my thoughts!), I googled "round-trip" and the Wikipedia definition says something along the lines of (no, wait, it's actually a direct quote): "The term round-trip is commonly used in document conversion particularly involving markup languages such as XML and SGML. A successful round-trip consists of converting a document in format A (docA) to one in format B (docB) and then back again to format A (docA?). If docA and docA? are identical then there has been no information loss and the round-trip has been successful. More generally it means converting from any data representation and back again, including from one data structure to another." Have I added anything to the conversation? Or have I just told you what you already know? Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, Deirdre On 5/21/08, Kelly McDaniel wrote: > IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a > project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that > each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is > some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications > so that the changes reflected in the "other" application are rendered in > that application's native method.
roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp - chickenoregg?
That sounds about right to me. In the DITA world, "round-tripping" might mean that you could write your document in Frame, export it to XML, edit the XML in some other editor, then bring it back into Frame with the edits intact. Single-sourcing, on the other hand, is a one-way operation where you create all your content in one place and then render it in various formats, possibly using conditional controls to vary the content included in each format. Deirdre Reagan wrote: > As I have no idea what this conversation is about (great way to open a > discussion in which I offer my thoughts!), I googled "round-trip" and > the Wikipedia definition says something along the lines of (no, wait, > it's actually a direct quote): > > "The term round-trip is commonly used in document conversion > particularly involving markup languages such as XML and SGML. A > successful round-trip consists of converting a document in format A > (docA) to one in format B (docB) and then back again to format A > (docA$B!l(B). If docA and docA$B!l(B are identical then there has been no > information loss and the round-trip has been successful. More > generally it means converting from any data representation and back > again, including from one data structure to another." > > Have I added anything to the conversation? Or have I just told you > what you already know? > > Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, > > Deirdre > > On 5/21/08, Kelly McDaniel wrote: >> IMHO roundtrip means: With two or more applications, changes made to a >> project in one application are reflected in both, and it implies that >> each application offers some exclusive functionality, and that there is >> some translation of some sort that transpires between the applications >> so that the changes reflected in the "other" application are rendered in >> that application's native method. > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as jowens at magma.ca. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jowens%40magma.ca > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
roundtrip documentation and help (Framemaker/Robohelp -chickenoregg?
You left out the "is" between "Dying" and "to". Thomas Schmidt -Original Message- Dying to sit at the grown-ups table, Deirdre The Customer Rules! You call, we JUMP! Please consider the environment before printing this email CONFIDENTIAL NOTICE: This e-mail message including attachments, if any, is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Unauthorized interception of this e-mail is a violation of federal criminal law.
