Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Peter Mudie]

Try some clear lacquer spray – if you spray it on and add another couple of 
fine coats when its still wet, the lay-off should be smooth and it will be 
fairly flexible. I've done this in the past and you have to get the lacquer to 
'soak' over/around your mark making while wet without skimming over the 
sprocket holes (and clogging them). You can let this dry – it doesn't take long 
– and then lay on another fine coat. Don't go too thick or the celluloid may 
cause it to crack. You can either use a charcoal fixative (from art supply 
shops) or just use some automotive lacquer (the motorcycle stuff works the 
best).
P

Thank you all for the info. My films aren't too long, max five minutes. I will 
probably try the clear nail polish option, as I'm looking for a way to 
stabilize the material on the film until I can wrangle up the money needed to 
get internegatives and prints made, they are both on clear super-8 leader so 
I'll also need to do a 16mm blow-up.  The shorter film is simply dirt on clear 
leader, and I'm afraid that any printing process might smear the dirt off if I 
attempted to do so as is (not to mention gum up any equipment)

again, thanks!

-JH


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Isaac Brooks 
mailto:isaacbrook...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi,

Yes, I agree with previous comments about adding yet another layer to the film: 
don't, at least not as a long lasting projection solution.

If break-down / image degeneration during exhibition is your thing, then that's 
another story. But it sounds like you want what you've made to stay more or 
less the same.

Not sure how long your films are, as that might affect how easily you can 
rephotograph them yourself.

If you have access to an optical printer, and your films are relatively short, 
then then that would be the way I'd go. I work with a lot of folks who 
optically print any direct animation / manipulation they do on 16mm right off 
the bat, so they have a clean, lab-friendly negative / camera original.

But get lots of isopropyl alcohol, as the projection side of the printer will 
need cleaning. I'd look within your filmmaking community to see what sort of 
optical printer access you have, and if there is a machine that other people 
have used for this sort of slightly messier stuff.

Other list members might have solutions as to labs that deal happily with this 
sort of thing. If your movies are long, then you might have to look into 
something more specialized. But I would consider doing it yourself if you have 
some equipment access. While it's slightly against the camera-less film ideal, 
it's a measure that has frequently been made in order to ensure that a decent 
print of your work is shown, and that doesn't gum up a projector.

Isaac
Common Pictures


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Tom Whiteside 
mailto:tom.whites...@duke.edu>> wrote:
I don’t think you can safely add a layer of finish – ink and markers probably 
won’t change much, but craft paint is going to come off (to some degree) so if 
you want to project this (much) you need to make a print.

As I’m sure you are aware, the motion of the film through the projector is 
intermittent, it is vigorous, anything up on top of the surface of the plastic 
is going to come off.

Good luck!

From: FrameWorks 
[mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com]
 On Behalf Of Jarrett Hayman
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 9:02 PM
To: FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Subject: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

Hello,
I have recently completed two films made using direct application techniques, 
such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent markers and other 
media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of finish to the film so 
that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off with projection, but I'm 
afraid to use a spray finish for traditional paintings, as they are usually 
quite flammable. Any ideas?
-JH

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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Jarrett Hayman]

Thank you all for the info. My films aren't too long, max five minutes. I
will probably try the clear nail polish option, as I'm looking for a way to
stabilize the material on the film until I can wrangle up the money needed
to get internegatives and prints made, they are both on clear super-8
leader so I'll also need to do a 16mm blow-up.  The shorter film is simply
dirt on clear leader, and I'm afraid that any printing process might smear
the dirt off if I attempted to do so as is (not to mention gum up any
equipment)

again, thanks!

-JH


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Isaac Brooks wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Yes, I agree with previous comments about adding yet another layer to the
> film: don't, at least not as a long lasting projection solution.
>
> If break-down / image degeneration during exhibition is your thing, then
> that's another story. But it sounds like you want what you've made to stay
> more or less the same.
>
> Not sure how long your films are, as that might affect how easily you can
> rephotograph them yourself.
>
> If you have access to an optical printer, and your films are relatively
> short, then then that would be the way I'd go. I work with a lot of folks
> who optically print any direct animation / manipulation they do on 16mm
> right off the bat, so they have a clean, lab-friendly negative / camera
> original.
>
> But get lots of isopropyl alcohol, as the projection side of the printer
> will need cleaning. I'd look within your filmmaking community to see what
> sort of optical printer access you have, and if there is a machine that
> other people have used for this sort of slightly messier stuff.
>
> Other list members might have solutions as to labs that deal happily with
> this sort of thing. If your movies are long, then you might have to look
> into something more specialized. But I would consider doing it yourself if
> you have some equipment access. While it's slightly against the camera-less
> film ideal, it's a measure that has frequently been made in order to ensure
> that a decent print of your work is shown, and that doesn't gum up a
> projector.
>
> Isaac
> Common Pictures
>
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Tom Whiteside wrote:
>
>>  I don’t think you can safely add a layer of finish – ink and markers
>> probably won’t change much, but craft paint is going to come off (to some
>> degree) so if you want to project this (much) you need to make a print.**
>> **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> As I’m sure you are aware, the motion of the film through the projector
>> is intermittent, it is vigorous, anything up on top of the surface of the
>> plastic is going to come off.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* FrameWorks [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jarrett Hayman
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 9:02 PM
>> *To:* FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> *Subject:* [Frameworks] painted film finisher
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have recently completed two films made using direct application
>> techniques, such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent
>> markers and other media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of
>> finish to the film so that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off
>> with projection, but I'm afraid to use a spray finish for traditional
>> paintings, as they are usually quite flammable. Any ideas?
>>
>> -JH
>>
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
>>
>
> ___
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Robert Schaller]

I'd like to second the internegative idea. If your work is done, then take it 
to a lab, have a contact internegative struck, and sit in on the timing session 
to ensure that the colors are just the way you want them.

Or, and here is an opportunity for more creative work, if you have access to a 
contact printer, make your own internegative and then print.  Contact printers 
normally print emulsion to emulsion, and continuously, and are (in principle) 
very easy on irregular materials.


On May 26, 2013, at 7:06 PM, Roger Wilson wrote:

> The process that is normally done is to have an internegative completed from 
> the painted film and then a print made from this internegative. I think 
> anything you place on the film will eventually wear off. 
> 
> 
> Roger D. Wilson
> 613 324 - 7504
> rogerdwil...@sympatico.ca
> http://www.rogerdwilson.ca
> 
> Without failure you can never achieve success. I have based my process and my 
> career as an experimental film artist on this statement; and I welcome it as 
> it pushes me forward as an artist to try something different, something new. 
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:01:37 -0500
> From: jfhay...@gmail.com
> To: FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> Subject: [Frameworks] painted film finisher
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have recently completed two films made using direct application techniques, 
> such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent markers and 
> other media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of finish to the 
> film so that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off with projection, 
> but I'm afraid to use a spray finish for traditional paintings, as they are 
> usually quite flammable. Any ideas?
> 
> -JH
> 
> ___ FrameWorks mailing list 
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Isaac Brooks]

Hi,

Yes, I agree with previous comments about adding yet another layer to the
film: don't, at least not as a long lasting projection solution.

If break-down / image degeneration during exhibition is your thing, then
that's another story. But it sounds like you want what you've made to stay
more or less the same.

Not sure how long your films are, as that might affect how easily you can
rephotograph them yourself.

If you have access to an optical printer, and your films are relatively
short, then then that would be the way I'd go. I work with a lot of folks
who optically print any direct animation / manipulation they do on 16mm
right off the bat, so they have a clean, lab-friendly negative / camera
original.

But get lots of isopropyl alcohol, as the projection side of the printer
will need cleaning. I'd look within your filmmaking community to see what
sort of optical printer access you have, and if there is a machine that
other people have used for this sort of slightly messier stuff.

Other list members might have solutions as to labs that deal happily with
this sort of thing. If your movies are long, then you might have to look
into something more specialized. But I would consider doing it yourself if
you have some equipment access. While it's slightly against the camera-less
film ideal, it's a measure that has frequently been made in order to ensure
that a decent print of your work is shown, and that doesn't gum up a
projector.

Isaac
Common Pictures


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Tom Whiteside wrote:

>  I don’t think you can safely add a layer of finish – ink and markers
> probably won’t change much, but craft paint is going to come off (to some
> degree) so if you want to project this (much) you need to make a print.***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> As I’m sure you are aware, the motion of the film through the projector is
> intermittent, it is vigorous, anything up on top of the surface of the
> plastic is going to come off.
>
> ** **
>
> Good luck!
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* FrameWorks [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Jarrett Hayman
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 9:02 PM
> *To:* FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> *Subject:* [Frameworks] painted film finisher
>
> ** **
>
> Hello,
>
> I have recently completed two films made using direct application
> techniques, such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent
> markers and other media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of
> finish to the film so that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off
> with projection, but I'm afraid to use a spray finish for traditional
> paintings, as they are usually quite flammable. Any ideas?
>
> -JH
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Melanie Wilmink]

Hi Jarrett,
I've used clear nail polish successfully, but it's really just a stopgap to
transfer it, not a permanent solution. If you send the film off for public
screenings without a print it's pretty much guaranteed that the
projectionists will be extremely annoyed at a print that is gunking up
their equipment. It will also be difficult to project it properly as it
might make the film jump around in the gate since it's not perfectly smooth
anymore. If you're just projecting it for yourself, or intending to
stabilize it for a transfer, the nail polish seems to work fine though.

Also if you haven't seen it already, Helen Hill's Recipes for Disaster is
an excellent handmade film resource -
http://www.angoleiro.com/cine_texts/recipes_for_disaster_hill.pdf. I can't
seem to find an official online publication of it, but the official
memorial website with more information on the author is
http://www.helenhill.org.

Cheers,
Melanie Wilmink



On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Jarrett Hayman  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have recently completed two films made using direct application
> techniques, such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent
> markers and other media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of
> finish to the film so that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off
> with projection, but I'm afraid to use a spray finish for traditional
> paintings, as they are usually quite flammable. Any ideas?
>
> -JH
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Tom Whiteside]

I don't think you can safely add a layer of finish - ink and markers probably 
won't change much, but craft paint is going to come off (to some degree) so if 
you want to project this (much) you need to make a print.

As I'm sure you are aware, the motion of the film through the projector is 
intermittent, it is vigorous, anything up on top of the surface of the plastic 
is going to come off.

Good luck!

From: FrameWorks [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of 
Jarrett Hayman
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 9:02 PM
To: FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Subject: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

Hello,
I have recently completed two films made using direct application techniques, 
such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent markers and other 
media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of finish to the film so 
that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off with projection, but I'm 
afraid to use a spray finish for traditional paintings, as they are usually 
quite flammable. Any ideas?
-JH
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Re: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

[Roger Wilson]

The process that is normally done is to have an internegative completed from 
the painted film and then a print made from this internegative. I think 
anything you place on the film will eventually wear off. 

Roger D. Wilson613 324 - 7504rogerdwilson@sympatico.cahttp://www.rogerdwilson.ca
Without failure you can never achieve success. I have based my process and my 
career as an experimental film artist on this statement; and I welcome it as it 
pushes me forward as an artist to try something different, something new. 

Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:01:37 -0500
From: jfhay...@gmail.com
To: FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Subject: [Frameworks] painted film finisher

Hello,

I have recently completed two films made using direct application techniques, 
such as hand painting with craft paint, india ink, permanent markers and other 
media. I would like to find a way to apply some kind of finish to the film so 
that the ink and paint do not continue to rub off with projection, but I'm 
afraid to use a spray finish for traditional paintings, as they are usually 
quite flammable. Any ideas?


-JH


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