RE: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD characteristics, don't they? I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart from an original disc? -smo --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=click ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel
RE: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
Sorry, I just assumed you didn't know anything about the low level disc formats. I think most people just think that the data in a raw disc image (for example) just get written straight to the disc as pits and troughs translated from the 0's and 1's. I'm not too hot on the differences between CD and DVD formats at that level but I presume they are pretty much the same. In my message, I was referring to formats that are 'uncopyable' rather than 'unripable'. If you don't want the disc to be able to be read on a pc, then it could be done by having multiple sessions, where the first session is closed and the second session starts at a specific offset into the disc. I think the dreamcast did something along these lines in addition to the second session being higher density than a normal cd. Basically the same as the TOC thing, but without a firmware change the normal cd/dvd drive probably wouldn't be able to find the second session. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:45 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hi, I'm aware of basics of CD format (apparently DVD is a lot alike though?) and I didn't imply the format was a simple thing. At least part of the disc is standard DVD, since it can be read on a PC as DVD-video. The DVD drive in both Xboxes is supposed to be a pretty standard DVD-drive with some Xbox specific things (and by that I mean the difference is in the firmware, not in the optics, correct?). Looks like weak sectors are used by SafeDisc protection on PC and they seem to have no problem ripping those... On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD characteristics, don't they? I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart from an original disc? -smo --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865opclick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --- This SF.net
Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
How about connecting the DVD drive from the xbox360 to the pc? ;)Yes, it has a special power plug, but leave that in the xbox360, connect sata to the PC and fire up both -I wonder what the results would be ... ConstiOn 11/28/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello,No problem :) I wouldn't say I know lots, but at least some basics.Basically my point is that unless the disc format is such that a PCDVD drive's optics cannot pickup the data from the disc, I don't think it's a too far-fetched idea that it could be read with a PC DVD drive(with a modified firmware).On the topic of DVD drives, is there any more info on the Xbox DVDdrive? Is there a comparable PC version of the drive available as there was for the original Xbox?On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I just assumed you didn't know anything about the low level disc formats. I think most people just think that the data in a raw disc image (for example) just get written straight to the disc as pits and troughs translated from the 0's and 1's. I'm not too hot on the differences between CD and DVD formats at that level but I presume they are pretty much the same. In my message, I was referring to formats that are 'uncopyable' rather than 'unripable'. If you don't want the disc to be able to be read on a pc, then it could be done by having multiple sessions, where the first session is closed and the second session starts at a specific offset into the disc. I think the dreamcast did something along these lines in addition to the second session being higher density than a normal cd. Basically the same as the TOC thing, but without a firmware change the normal cd/dvd drive probably wouldn't be able to find the second session. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:45 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hi, I'm aware of basics of CD format (apparently DVD is a lot alike though?) and I didn't imply the format was a simple thing. At least part of the disc is standard DVD, since it can be read on a PC as DVD-video. The DVD drive in both Xboxes is supposed to be a pretty standard DVD-drive with some Xbox specific things (and by that I mean the difference is in the firmware, not in the optics, correct?). Looks like weak sectors are used by SafeDisc protection on PC and they seem to have no problem ripping those... On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD characteristics, don't they? I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart from an original disc? -smo --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems?Stop!Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing theweb.DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems?Stop!Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing theweb.DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865opclick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https
Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
That sounds promising... Does the 360's HDD use a regular SATA hookup? Does anyone here have a 360 that they could try this with? On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:12:52 -0500, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about connecting the DVD drive from the xbox360 to the pc? ;) Yes, it has a special power plug, but leave that in the xbox360, connect sata to the PC and fire up both - I wonder what the results would be ... Consti On 11/28/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, No problem :) I wouldn't say I know lots, but at least some basics. Basically my point is that unless the disc format is such that a PC DVD drive's optics cannot pickup the data from the disc, I don't think it's a too far-fetched idea that it could be read with a PC DVD drive (with a modified firmware). On the topic of DVD drives, is there any more info on the Xbox DVD drive? Is there a comparable PC version of the drive available as there was for the original Xbox? On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I just assumed you didn't know anything about the low level disc formats. I think most people just think that the data in a raw disc image (for example) just get written straight to the disc as pits and troughs translated from the 0's and 1's. I'm not too hot on the differences between CD and DVD formats at that level but I presume they are pretty much the same. In my message, I was referring to formats that are 'uncopyable' rather than 'unripable'. If you don't want the disc to be able to be read on a pc, then it could be done by having multiple sessions, where the first session is closed and the second session starts at a specific offset into the disc. I think the dreamcast did something along these lines in addition to the second session being higher density than a normal cd. Basically the same as the TOC thing, but without a firmware change the normal cd/dvd drive probably wouldn't be able to find the second session. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:45 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hi, I'm aware of basics of CD format (apparently DVD is a lot alike though?) and I didn't imply the format was a simple thing. At least part of the disc is standard DVD, since it can be read on a PC as DVD-video. The DVD drive in both Xboxes is supposed to be a pretty standard DVD-drive with some Xbox specific things (and by that I mean the difference is in the firmware, not in the optics, correct?). Looks like weak sectors are used by SafeDisc protection on PC and they seem to have no problem ripping those... On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD characteristics, don't they? I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart from an original disc? -smo --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick ___ Free60-devel mailing list Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ --- This SF.net email is sponsored
Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
Mhh.. and the http://www.free60.org/wiki/DVD page tells us that: The DVD-ROM doesn't work on a standard pc workstation - I am gona change that to The DVD-ROM doesn't work on a standard pc workstation, yet. :)On 11/28/05, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The HDD also uses a normal SATA hookup - read on free60 on that ;)http://www.free60.org/wiki/Harddrive On 11/28/05, Sheldon Neuberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds promising... Does the 360's HDD use a regular SATA hookup?Does anyone here have a 360 that they could try this with?On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:12:52 -0500, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about connecting the DVD drive from the xbox360 to the pc? ;) Yes, it has a special power plug, but leave that in the xbox360, connect sata to the PC and fire up both - I wonder what the results would be ... Consti On 11/28/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, No problem :) I wouldn't say I know lots, but at least some basics. Basically my point is that unless the disc format is such that a PC DVD drive's optics cannot pickup the data from the disc, I don't think it's a too far-fetched idea that it could be read with a PC DVD drive (with a modified firmware). On the topic of DVD drives, is there any more info on the Xbox DVD drive? Is there a comparable PC version of the drive available as there was for the original Xbox? On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I just assumed you didn't know anything about the low level disc formats. I think most people just think that the data in a raw disc image (for example) just get written straight to the disc as pits and troughs translated from the 0's and 1's. I'm not too hot on the differences between CD and DVD formats at that level but I presume they are pretty much the same. In my message, I was referring to formats that are 'uncopyable' rather than 'unripable'. If you don't want the disc to be able to be read on a pc, then it could be done by having multiple sessions, where the first session is closed and the second session starts at a specific offset into the disc. I think the dreamcast did something along these lines in addition to the second session being higher density than a normal cd. Basically the same as the TOC thing, but without a firmware change the normal cd/dvd drive probably wouldn't be able to find the second session. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:45 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hi, I'm aware of basics of CD format (apparently DVD is a lot alike though?) and I didn't imply the format was a simple thing. At least part of the disc is standard DVD, since it can be read on a PC as DVD-video. The DVD drive in both Xboxes is supposed to be a pretty standard DVD-drive with some Xbox specific things (and by that I mean the difference is in the firmware, not in the optics, correct?). Looks like weak sectors are used by SafeDisc protection on PC and they seem to have no problem ripping those... On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that renderthem uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD characteristics,don't they? I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vaguesuggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on asecond layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (sayif a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart from an original disc? -smo --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems?Stop!Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing theweb.DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37alloc_id865op=ick
Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats
That was under the subtitle Speculation, so I guess no one has really tried it yet. I found some threads on some forums that say Xbox1's DVD drive works on a PC (though nothing too concrete). On 28/11/05, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mhh.. and the http://www.free60.org/wiki/DVD page tells us that: The DVD-ROM doesn't work on a standard pc workstation - I am gona change that to The DVD-ROM doesn't work on a standard pc workstation, yet. :) On 11/28/05, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The HDD also uses a normal SATA hookup - read on free60 on that ;) http://www.free60.org/wiki/Harddrive On 11/28/05, Sheldon Neuberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds promising... Does the 360's HDD use a regular SATA hookup? Does anyone here have a 360 that they could try this with? On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:12:52 -0500, Constantin Hofstetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about connecting the DVD drive from the xbox360 to the pc? ;) Yes, it has a special power plug, but leave that in the xbox360, connect sata to the PC and fire up both - I wonder what the results would be ... Consti On 11/28/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, No problem :) I wouldn't say I know lots, but at least some basics. Basically my point is that unless the disc format is such that a PC DVD drive's optics cannot pickup the data from the disc, I don't think it's a too far-fetched idea that it could be read with a PC DVD drive (with a modified firmware). On the topic of DVD drives, is there any more info on the Xbox DVD drive? Is there a comparable PC version of the drive available as there was for the original Xbox? On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I just assumed you didn't know anything about the low level disc formats. I think most people just think that the data in a raw disc image (for example) just get written straight to the disc as pits and troughs translated from the 0's and 1's. I'm not too hot on the differences between CD and DVD formats at that level but I presume they are pretty much the same. In my message, I was referring to formats that are 'uncopyable' rather than 'unripable'. If you don't want the disc to be able to be read on a pc, then it could be done by having multiple sessions, where the first session is closed and the second session starts at a specific offset into the disc. I think the dreamcast did something along these lines in addition to the second session being higher density than a normal cd. Basically the same as the TOC thing, but without a firmware change the normal cd/dvd drive probably wouldn't be able to find the second session. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:45 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hi, I'm aware of basics of CD format (apparently DVD is a lot alike though?) and I didn't imply the format was a simple thing. At least part of the disc is standard DVD, since it can be read on a PC as DVD-video. The DVD drive in both Xboxes is supposed to be a pretty standard DVD-drive with some Xbox specific things (and by that I mean the difference is in the firmware, not in the optics, correct?). Looks like weak sectors are used by SafeDisc protection on PC and they seem to have no problem ripping those... On 28/11/05, Darren Coles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the lowest level, CD and DVD formats are a lot more complicated than you might think. Its not just a case of writing the 0's and 1's from the data you want to store onto disc. Theres several layers of error correction and the fact that the data has To be encoded in such a way that it can be read back reliably. If you want to know more, try googling for EFM (eight fourteen modulation) and 'Weak sectors' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of smo Sent: 28 November 2005 17:02 To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Free60-Devel] Re: Game DVD formats Hello, My messages sounded a lot like it was about game piracy. My apologies, it definately wasn't about that - I'm more interested in how the security functions from end-to-end. On 28/11/05, smo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD
