Re: Resurrecting games/wmfortune (Was: Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Julian H. Stacey]

> Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
> > FYI in case newer than yours, Fonz, I have
> >   MD5 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) =3D fa8db5d9a46d9afe7757f498c7=
> 81e8c9
> >   SHA256 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) =3D b149067b7e3521f7e03354b=
> 12754baaf9c5556af4d286bbd6d169b1db9f6dba0
> >=20
> > It builds & run on my 9.2, I've not tried on current.
> 
> That matches what I've got and appears to be the most recent, thanks.
> 
> Considering the overly aggressive pruning of the ports tree that the
> Powers That Be have been conveying (but what to me rather more seems like
> attempting to perform intricate neurosurgery using a sledgehammer and a
> chainsaw), it's unlikely that a port which is no longer maintained
> upstream will be welcomed back into the tree, even though people are
> willing to maintain the port and host the distfiles. There probably needs
> to be some sort of alternative--or "underground" if you like--tree that
> can serve those ports that are not to the liking of a select few (and/or
> that have been taken away from the tolerant in order to appease the
> intolerant, such as in the misc/jive case). 

Agreed.  I will also contribute deleted working ports.


> I'm currently looking into
> what's the best way to go about setting up such a supplementary tree.

To prevent ports deleters further disruption, I created 
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports
& cc'd "FreeBSD Ports Resuscitation" 

I can offer a FreeBSD server, space for freebsd.org + supplmentary
SVN trees, + ftp & http (as used for http://ctm.berklix.org ) .

Initially non SVN'd last working copies would be something.
We'd next want SVN to maintain it. SVN is already installed on
server, I would need to add http support for SVN (suggestions welcome).
Hopefully others would volunteer for SVN admin & port meta data recovery.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, BSD Linux Unix Sys Eng Consultant Munich
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Re: Resurrecting games/wmfortune (Was: Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Alphons van Werven]

Julian H. Stacey wrote:

> FYI in case newer than yours, Fonz, I have
>   MD5 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) = fa8db5d9a46d9afe7757f498c781e8c9
>   SHA256 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) = 
> b149067b7e3521f7e03354b12754baaf9c5556af4d286bbd6d169b1db9f6dba0
> 
> It builds & run on my 9.2, I've not tried on current.

That matches what I've got and appears to be the most recent, thanks.

Considering the overly aggressive pruning of the ports tree that the
Powers That Be have been conveying (but what to me rather more seems like
attempting to perform intricate neurosurgery using a sledgehammer and a
chainsaw), it's unlikely that a port which is no longer maintained
upstream will be welcomed back into the tree, even though people are
willing to maintain the port and host the distfiles. There probably needs
to be some sort of alternative--or "underground" if you like--tree that
can serve those ports that are not to the liking of a select few (and/or
that have been taken away from the tolerant in order to appease the
intolerant, such as in the misc/jive case). I'm currently looking into
what's the best way to go about setting up such a supplementary tree.

Fonz

-- 
A.J. "Fonz" van Werven 
mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: Resurrecting games/wmfortune (Was: Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi, Reference:
> From: Alphons van Werven 
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:37:52 +0200

Alphons van Werven wrote:
> Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 
> >> There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this=
> =20
> >> case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That=20
> >> was the base system though; not the ports tree.
> >=20
> > Not to mention "fortune -o" (to get the obscene versions) and there were
> > some beauties there...
> 
> That's actually what I meant :-)
> 
> The funny thing to me is that fortune-o got removed, while murphy-o is
> still around. Moreover, there are a couple of aphorisms in there of which
> I honestly can't for the life of me fathom what could possibly be
> offensive about them, but that's a different matter altogether.
> 
> > aneurin% cd wmfortune=20
> > aneurin% less *descr
> > WMFortune outputs fortune messages, just as its name says.
> > aneurin% make
> > =3D=3D=3D>  wmfortune-0.241_3 is marked as broken: No public disfiles.
> > *** [all] Error code 1
> >=20
> > Stop in /usr/ports/games/wmfortune.
> 
> I've been doing some searching, but upstream games/wmfortune appears to
> have indeed vanished entirely. I still have what seems to be the latest
> distfile in my archives and I'd be happy to host it if this port still
> builds and works properly.

FYI in case newer than yours, Fonz, I have
  MD5 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) = fa8db5d9a46d9afe7757f498c781e8c9
  SHA256 (9.2-RELEASE/wmfortune-0.241.tar.gz) = 
b149067b7e3521f7e03354b12754baaf9c5556af4d286bbd6d169b1db9f6dba0

It builds & run on my 9.2, I've not tried on current.

Cheers,
Julian
--
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Patrick Powell]

On 10/26/16 03:56, David Demelier wrote:

On 10/26/2016 09:32 AM, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

Hi!


I think unless FreeBSD makes explicit antichrist statement, there is
no problem having a daemon mascot. I have never heard any religious
problem so far. Or then I missed something.

Approx. 20 years ago (?), some FreeBSD developer with a old-style
logo on a t-shirt was asked to leave some saloon in Texas
because the logo suggested that they worship the antichrist.

Brilliant ! :-)

There was a job (in rec.humor.funny?) about it 8-}

That's why this reference to the demon logo is made 8-}



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I have an autographed T Shirt by the artist -  Phil Foglio.  Who also 
did the artwork for the MythAdventures (Graphic Novel) as well as 
others.  When asked for an update at one of the San Diego Comic Cons,  
he just laughed hysterically and then politely said 'No!'


See http://www.studiofoglio.com/ for examples of his work.

--
Patrick Powell Astart Technologies
papow...@astart.com1530 Jamacha Rd, Suite X
Network and System San Diego, CA 92019
  Consulting   858-874-6543 FAX 858-751-2435
Web: www.astart.com

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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[David Demelier]

On 10/26/2016 09:32 AM, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

Hi!


I think unless FreeBSD makes explicit antichrist statement, there is
no problem having a daemon mascot. I have never heard any religious
problem so far. Or then I missed something.

Approx. 20 years ago (?), some FreeBSD developer with a old-style
logo on a t-shirt was asked to leave some saloon in Texas
because the logo suggested that they worship the antichrist.

Brilliant ! :-)

There was a job (in rec.humor.funny?) about it 8-}

That's why this reference to the demon logo is made 8-}



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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:32:55 +0200
Kurt Jaeger  wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> > I think unless FreeBSD makes explicit antichrist statement, there is
> > no problem having a daemon mascot. I have never heard any religious
> > problem so far. Or then I missed something.  
> 
> Approx. 20 years ago (?), some FreeBSD developer with a old-style
> logo on a t-shirt was asked to leave some saloon in Texas
> because the logo suggested that they worship the antichrist.
> 
> There was a job (in rec.humor.funny?) about it 8-}
> 
> That's why this reference to the demon logo is made 8-}
> 

http://www.milk.com/true-stories/unix_for_the_masses.html
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Kurt Jaeger]

Hi!

> I think unless FreeBSD makes explicit antichrist statement, there is
> no problem having a daemon mascot. I have never heard any religious
> problem so far. Or then I missed something.

Approx. 20 years ago (?), some FreeBSD developer with a old-style
logo on a t-shirt was asked to leave some saloon in Texas
because the logo suggested that they worship the antichrist.

There was a job (in rec.humor.funny?) about it 8-}

That's why this reference to the demon logo is made 8-}

-- 
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[David Demelier]

2016-10-25 22:57 GMT+02:00 Dave Horsfall :
> Have you seen the FreeBSD home page?

Well, I thought the OP was talking about the logo [0], not the home
web page. Anyway, I think comparing religious and offensive content a
bit offtopic.

I think unless FreeBSD makes explicit antichrist statement, there is
no problem having a daemon mascot. I have never heard any religious
problem so far. Or then I missed something.

Regards,

[0]: https://www.freebsd.org/fr/logo.html (why the english version
does not have them?)

-- 
Demelier David
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Dave Horsfall]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, David Demelier wrote:

> I'm a bit surprised to see so much traffic about the jive removal.

I'm not :-)

> I personally don't care about offensive software, users are free to not 
> use it (sudo may have funny insults, disabled by default though). 
> Perhaps marking it broken because it's offensive was inappropriate.

Which was the whole point of the argument.

> However bapt pointed out some valuable reasons, the software is not 
> maintained and has no more distfiles available and this was a good 
> reason for being removed.

So once the *technical* requirements have been met (as opposed to 
someone's delicate sensibilities being offended), it's OK to bring it 
back?

Could be tricky, though, as the sources were posted to USENET some time in 
the 80s...

> And the daemon logo is a ball for several years now, not really a daemon 
> anymore. :)

Have you seen the FreeBSD home page?

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Vitaly Magerya]

> can anyone in
> this thread explain why misc/jive is considered offensive and removed

I'd like to extend the question: is there a new policy about "offensive"
ports not being allowed in the ports tree any longer? If so, could
someone point me to it?

If not, then, well, I don't know what to say. You leave me very
confused. Was the removal arbitrary? Is someone working on updating
ports tree policies?
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Re: Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[David Demelier]

2016-10-24 20:21 GMT+02:00 Dave Hayes :
> On 10/23/2016 19:10, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
>>
>> In a mail thread about jive that finding is very mature 8-}
>
>
> Speaking of maturity and attempting to add consistency, can anyone in this
> thread explain why misc/jive is considered offensive and removed, but the
> FreeBSD daemon logo (on the main web page) is left there ... even though
> there are numerous searchable stories about that image being offensive to
> some religious people?
>
> Thank you for your cogent reply. :)

I'm a bit surprised to see so much traffic about the jive removal.

I personally don't care about offensive software, users are free to
not use it (sudo may have funny insults, disabled by default though).
Perhaps marking it broken because it's offensive was inappropriate.
However bapt pointed out some valuable reasons, the software is not
maintained and has no more distfiles available and this was a good
reason for being removed.

And the daemon logo is a ball for several years now, not really a
daemon anymore. :)

Regards,

-- 
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Inconsistency? (was Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Dave Hayes]

On 10/23/2016 19:10, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

In a mail thread about jive that finding is very mature 8-}


Speaking of maturity and attempting to add consistency, can anyone in 
this thread explain why misc/jive is considered offensive and removed, 
but the FreeBSD daemon logo (on the main web page) is left there ... 
even though there are numerous searchable stories about that image being 
offensive to some religious people?


Thank you for your cogent reply. :)
--
Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - d...@jetcafe.org
 *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* 

Enjoyment is not a goal,
it is a feeling that accompanies important ongoing activity
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[FreeBSD Core Secretary]

On 24/10/2016 17:11, Mikhail T. wrote:

> Now that we are done with the hairsplitting, and I shall put the port
> back as soon as I have a moment -- unless someone else beats me to it.
> 
> I'd also like to ask portmgr@ to avoid taking such steps in the future
> -- inventing a policy in order to immediately act on it. Though we do
> not have a strict separation of powers, portmgr@ is primarily an
> executive body -- and should defer "lawmaking" to the wider audience of
> committers, however cantankerous we may be.
> 
> Portmgr's mandate is to ensure, ports continue to build smoothly despite
> changes to the OS and other ports. Policing the contents is a
> regrettable overreach (a.k.a. "powergrab").

Hi, Mikhail and everyone else involved here,

The misc/jive port was actually removed at the request of core@.  Please
can you raise your concerns with core privately, rather than letting
this thread get out of hand (as it seems likely to do) in public.

Cheers,

Matthew, with hat core-secretary.





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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mikhail T.]

On 24.10.2016 11:51, Mark Linimon wrote:

Or:

  - expired, replaced by newer version
  - unfetchable
  - license does not allow anyone to package it
  - author requested(*) removal

I have personally removed ports fitting each of these criteria at various
times.  I am sure I am missing some other criterion as well.

So, your claim is simply false.


I stand corrected and apologize. Allow me to rephrase my argument:

Technically, the only reasons to remove a port is due to one of the 
following reasons:


 * continuous failure to build
 * expiration, replaced by newer version
 * unfetchable
 * license does not allow anyone to package it
 * author requested(*) removal

None of the above is applicable to jive. Therefore, for purely technical 
reasons, it ought to be put back.



I have personally removed ports fitting each of these criteria at various
times.  I am sure I am missing some other criterion as well.
Yes, I'm sure you could, eventually, think of others -- but, just as 
with the above list, none that would apply to jive. It is -- to my 
knowledge and yours, evidently -- the very first one removed for a 
patently non-technical reason of being "offensive".


Now that we are done with the hairsplitting, and I shall put the port 
back as soon as I have a moment -- unless someone else beats me to it.


I'd also like to ask portmgr@ to avoid taking such steps in the future 
-- inventing a policy in order to immediately act on it. Though we do 
not have a strict separation of powers, portmgr@ is primarily an 
executive body -- and should defer "lawmaking" to the wider audience of 
committers, however cantankerous we may be.


Portmgr's mandate is to ensure, ports continue to build smoothly despite 
changes to the OS and other ports. Policing the contents is a 
regrettable overreach (a.k.a. "powergrab").


   -mi

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 03:56:07PM -0400, Mikhail T. wrote:
> Technically, the only reason to remove a port is due to a failure to
> build -- and that hasn't happened.

Or:

 - expired, replaced by newer version
 - unfetchable
 - license does not allow anyone to package it
 - author requested(*) removal

I have personally removed ports fitting each of these criteria at various
times.  I am sure I am missing some other criterion as well.

So, your claim is simply false.

mcl

(*) ok, in one case, it was actually a demand, with the threat of legal
action appended.
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Marko Cupać]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 01:59:17 +1100 (EST)
Dave Horsfall  wrote:

> Next thing you know, "valgirl" will be deleted from Usenet...

Let's not forget about Corporate Bullshit Generator!
http://cbsg.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/live

Those poor C-suites must feel offended by such mockery!

Not in freebsd ports, I know. But why stop there?
-- 
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Greg Byshenk]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 09:54:56AM +0200, Torsten Zuehlsdorff wrote:
> On 24.10.2016 09:16, Greg Byshenk wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 01:05:52AM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> >
> >> "Common decency" is disputable even in within USA; Europe is less
> >> infested with USA style prissy "political correctness", & other
> >> places less than Europe.  Censorship of Global FreeBSD to USA norms
> >> is Offensive.
> >
> > Point of information: I can't speak knowledgeably about the
> > rest of the world, but Europe tends to have -more- stringent
> > restrictions on abusive speech than does the USA.
> 
> Just at a side note - this statement is far to general. It depends very 
> heavenly on the country. There are around 50 different countries in 
> Europe which differs quite a lot - some have more restrictions and some 
> less than the USA. Its quite surprising.

Yes, it is overly general, but it was in response to an 
equally overly-general statement. To my knowledge, it also
is -generally- (though not univerally) true. (And, of course,
the nature of such restrictions is highly variable from one
state to another.) 

-- 
greg byshenk  -  gbysh...@byshenk.net  -  Leiden, NL
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Torsten Zuehlsdorff]

On 24.10.2016 09:16, Greg Byshenk wrote:

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 01:05:52AM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

Mark Linimon wrote:



It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.



"Common decency" is disputable even in within USA; Europe is less
infested with USA style prissy "political correctness", & other
places less than Europe.  Censorship of Global FreeBSD to USA norms
is Offensive.


Point of information: I can't speak knowledgeably about the
rest of the world, but Europe tends to have -more- stringent
restrictions on abusive speech than does the USA.


Just at a side note - this statement is far to general. It depends very 
heavenly on the country. There are around 50 different countries in 
Europe which differs quite a lot - some have more restrictions and some 
less than the USA. Its quite surprising.


Greetings,
Torsten
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Greg Byshenk]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 01:05:52AM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Mark Linimon wrote:

> > It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.
 
> "Common decency" is disputable even in within USA; Europe is less
> infested with USA style prissy "political correctness", & other
> places less than Europe.  Censorship of Global FreeBSD to USA norms
> is Offensive.

Point of information: I can't speak knowledgeably about the
rest of the world, but Europe tends to have -more- stringent
restrictions on abusive speech than does the USA. 
 

-- 
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Thomas Mueller]

> Why can't we accept that a program which may be well over 30 years old,
> hasn't seen any update since 20 years, is more or less lost since some
> time and has no technical value (it's just some parody of a text filter)
> can be removed from the tree? Anyone who needs this port can install it
> on their own.
 
> Regards,
> Christoph

I found misc/jive in NetBSD pkgsrc, and might build and install it in NetBSD, 
since it is small and my curiosity is aroused.

But misc/jive does not like something particularly valuable or important.

Regardive offensiveness, what I really find offensive is the notion of 
political correctness; people should not be so tongue-tied.

Tom

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Kurt Jaeger]

Hi!

> > that makes them look like a bunch of out-of-touch clueless old white
> > guys;
> 
> Inflamatory language degrades,  Mature language builds.

In a mail thread about jive that finding is very mature 8-}

-- 
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 01:31:04PM +0200, Alphons van Werven wrote:
> > I'm still half waiting for someone with misguided delusions of moral
> > superiority to delete that port, thinking it's their decision to make
> > that FreeBSD must not enable people to display their system load as a
> > cartoon woman in various stages of undress.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.

"Common decency" is disputable even in within USA; Europe is less
infested with USA style prissy "political correctness", & other
places less than Europe.  Censorship of Global FreeBSD to USA norms
is Offensive.


> There's no "censorship" if the FreeBSD developers make a collective
> decision that they don't want to be associated with juvenile junk

Some will consider games/* & misc/jive etc juvenile,  & other ports offensive
for licence or many other reasons.  Tolerate them all, Live & let live.

The vast majority of commiters are innocent.  Just a few ports butchers
have degraded FreeBSD, removing working ports in last few years.

Rather than delete or move sensitive ports to a new SUBDIR, causing
disruption, & SVN work, Add a flag to bsd.port.mk
like NO_CDROM eg SENSITIVE= (like a TV / Cinema adults only flag).


> that makes them look like a bunch of out-of-touch clueless old white
> guys;

Inflamatory language degrades,  Mature language builds.

Cheers,
Julian
--
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Christoph Moench-Tegeder]

## Mikhail T. (mi+t...@aldan.algebra.com):

> > It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.
> If it was "decent" in 1997, when obrien added it, it must still be 
> decent today, only 19 years later. Nothing has changed about "decency" 
> since then.

Oh, it has changed. And it keeps changing, that's how it goes with
social norms, culture etc.
Mark has already explained that at least some of the terms are
clearly offensive. This offensivenes may be more obvious to him as
a native speaker, especially given that one needs some background to
understand what this program tried to "parodize" and where some of
the terms are derived from.

Why can't we accept that a program which may be well over 30 years old,
hasn't seen any update since 20 years, is more or less lost since some
time and has no technical value (it's just some parody of a text filter)
can be removed from the tree? Anyone who needs this port can install it
on their own.

Regards,
Christoph

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mikhail T.]

On 22.10.2016 Mark Linimon wrote:

It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.


If it was "decent" in 1997, when obrien added it, it must still be 
decent today, only 19 years later. Nothing has changed about "decency" 
since then.



juvenile junk that makes them look like a bunch of out-of-touch clueless old 
white guys


Somebody got his metaphors mixed up -- if it is "juvenile", then "old 
guys" (of any color) just does not ring true.


On 23.10.2016 12:03, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

So, lets get back to technical stuff 8-}


Technically, the only reason to remove a port is due to a failure to 
build -- and that hasn't happened. Therefore, the removal was in error, 
which should be rectified.


   -mi

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[scratch65535]

[Default] On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 20:30:05 +0200, Matthias Apitz
 wrote:

>El día Sunday, October 23, 2016 a las 02:13:12PM -0400, scratch65...@att.net 
>escribió:
>
>> I've to disagree, Matthias.   Technical people refusing to be
>> part of the social world make themselves the tools of
>> psychopaths.  Then we have, as the mordant joke goes, the program
>> nuke_germany being objected to not on humanitarian grounds, but
>> because the program should be nuke_country with the target name
>> being passed as an arg.
>
>I do not understand your reply. It already starts with top posting, what
>I do not understand. Your message itself, I do no understand either due
>to my poor English knowledge or the grammar and syntaxis of your
>lines.
>
>   matthias

I'd be surprised if my top posting really prevented your being
able to understand me, Matthias, :-)  but let me try again, using
different syntax.

Technical people live in the consensual world, not in some
special sanitised world where only bits and bytes are real.

Because technical people live in the same world everyone else
lives in, we must not pretend that social questions are someone
else's problem.

The reason we must not pretend is that psychopaths (those who
have no conscience, and exploit other living creatures  without
hesitation or remorse) would use us for their purposes.  And,
like poleznye duraki / nützliche Idioten, we would obey them
willingly.

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Sunday, October 23, 2016 a las 02:13:12PM -0400, scratch65...@att.net 
escribió:

> I've to disagree, Matthias.   Technical people refusing to be
> part of the social world make themselves the tools of
> psychopaths.  Then we have, as the mordant joke goes, the program
> nuke_germany being objected to not on humanitarian grounds, but
> because the program should be nuke_country with the target name
> being passed as an arg.

I do not understand your reply. It already starts with top posting, what
I do not understand. Your message itself, I do no understand either due
to my poor English knowledge or the grammar and syntaxis of your
lines.

matthias
-- 
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+49-176-38902045
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Oktober feiern.
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[scratch65535]

I've to disagree, Matthias.   Technical people refusing to be
part of the social world make themselves the tools of
psychopaths.  Then we have, as the mordant joke goes, the program
nuke_germany being objected to not on humanitarian grounds, but
because the program should be nuke_country with the target name
being passed as an arg.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:04:04 +0200, Matthias Apitz
 wrote:

>
>I think, we should end this thread. The port was removed, sure with good 
>reasons. If someone wants to use it. he can pull out from svn the old port 
>and continue with it to maintain.
>
>matthias
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Resurrecting games/wmfortune (Was: Re: misc/jive deleted)

[Alphons van Werven]

Dave Horsfall wrote:

>> There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this 
>> case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That 
>> was the base system though; not the ports tree.
> 
> Not to mention "fortune -o" (to get the obscene versions) and there were
> some beauties there...

That's actually what I meant :-)

The funny thing to me is that fortune-o got removed, while murphy-o is
still around. Moreover, there are a couple of aphorisms in there of which
I honestly can't for the life of me fathom what could possibly be
offensive about them, but that's a different matter altogether.

> aneurin% cd wmfortune 
> aneurin% less *descr
> WMFortune outputs fortune messages, just as its name says.
> aneurin% make
> ===>  wmfortune-0.241_3 is marked as broken: No public disfiles.
> *** [all] Error code 1
> 
> Stop in /usr/ports/games/wmfortune.

I've been doing some searching, but upstream games/wmfortune appears to
have indeed vanished entirely. I still have what seems to be the latest
distfile in my archives and I'd be happy to host it if this port still
builds and works properly.

Fonz

-- 
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mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Matthias Apitz]

I think, we should end this thread. The port was removed, sure with good 
reasons. If someone wants to use it. he can pull out from svn the old port 
and continue with it to maintain.


matthias



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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Kurt Jaeger]

Hi!

> Is this -- being more inclusive (whatever that means) -- 
> even a valid goal for a technical project?

That depends on those working on the project. If they wonder
why systems programming is so one-sided when it cames to age,
gender, race, etc, then: yes, it becomes a goal.

Please remember that there was another discussion at that time (August 2016),
which caused the loss of relevant contributors because the project
did not react in a manner that was seen sensible from all sides.

I would not count one such action as a huge change of direction,
but I would not welcome it either if the project started long
discussions on on-sidedness and missed out on the technical ones.

So, lets get back to technical stuff 8-}

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Kurt Jaeger]

Hi!

> Who exactly was offended by the existence of misc/jive in ports? Were
> there any actual complaints? How many?

One, in August. portmgr had a look at the port and decided on the removal.

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Marko Cupać]

Hi,

Who exactly was offended by the existence of misc/jive in ports? Were
there any actual complaints? How many?

Regards,
-- 
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After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Alphons van Werven]

Mark Linimon wrote:

>>> 
>> 
>> Answering opposition/criticism with violence isn't exactly my style.
> 
> If you say something that makes me want to plow my face into my hands,
> that's violence?

I stand corrected. Something got lost in translation there.

Fonz

-- 
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mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 02:44:11AM +0200, Alphons van Werven wrote:
> > 
> 
> Answering opposition/criticism with violence isn't exactly my style.

So.

If you say something that makes me want to plow my face into my hands,
that's violence?

Wow.

mcl
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Alphons van Werven wrote:

> There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this 
> case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That 
> was the base system though; not the ports tree.

Not to mention "fortune -o" (to get the obscene versions) and there were
some beauties there...

> Come to think of it, I'm quite (be it pleasantly) surprised to see that 
> deskutils/hot-babe is still allowed. I'm still half waiting for someone 
> with misguided delusions of moral superiority to delete that port, 
> thinking it's their decision to make that FreeBSD must not enable people 
> to display their system load as a cartoon woman in various stages of 
> undress. Or something along those lines. But I digress...

I never cease to be astonished by censorship.

> Anyway, if anyone misses this port, I'll be happy to maintain it 
> privately and make it available from a public repository, if only 
> because I strongly oppose censorship, so I would gladly help circumvent 
> what I consider to be a hopelessly outdated and even morally wrong 
> concept.

Yes please; it seems to be marked as broken:

aneurin% cd wmfortune 
aneurin% less *descr
WMFortune outputs fortune messages, just as its name says.
aneurin% make
===>  wmfortune-0.241_3 is marked as broken: No public disfiles.
*** [all] Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/games/wmfortune.

Sigh...

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Alphons van Werven]

Mark Linimon wrote:

> 

Answering opposition/criticism with violence isn't exactly my style. I
tend to take it as an indication that one has run out of rational
arguments.

Moreover, I think you'll find that the word you're looking for is
.

> It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.

Decency is subject to personal and/or cultural opinion. Selectively
suppressing matter that does not fit one's (moral, political, stylistic,
religious, whatever) agenda *is* censorship. Simple as that.

> There's no "censorship" if the FreeBSD developers make a collective
> decision that they don't want to be associated with
[snip derogative high horse description]
> and that instead they would like to seem more welcoming to people that
> don't look, think, and talk exactly like they do.

Quite the opposite, in fact. If the FreeBSD developers make a collective
decision that they don't want other people to be aware of software that
isn't in line with exactly how they happen to look, think and talk, that's
censorship. And it doesn't seem particularly welcoming to people with more
liberal/relaxed attitudes than one's own.

Fortunately, it's still possible to create one's own ports and to make the
resulting packages available from one's own repositories. Therefore, I
can't be bothered to be overly fussed when someone feels that FreeBSD
ought to take a stance on morality. I find it unfortunate and think it's
not the right way to go, but I'm accepting it and will gladly work around
it, as is apparently necessary.

Have a cookie,

Fonz

-- 
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mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mikhail T.]

On 22.10.2016 05:27, Mark Linimon wrote:

disclaimer: I wasn't the person who made the decision.


You are too humble, Mark. Whoever actually did it, would not have gone 
ahead if you objected.



The "pro" removal points: some of these terms are no longer acceptable
in polite society, and far cross the line from humor to offensive.
If FreeBSD is trying to be more inclusive, having this around isn't
the way.


That begs the question, does not it? Is FreeBSD "trying to be more 
inclusive"? Is this -- being more inclusive (whatever that means) -- 
even a valid goal for a technical project? We aren't curing the world's 
ills nor aiming for a "greater justice" here -- we are simply building 
the best Operating System.


A long as a port keeps building/packaging, it should remain available. 
Please, put it back if only to honor this sentiment:


   http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

Thanks,

   -mi

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:46:15PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Censorship is offensive. Censor the offensive Censor: remove his/her commit 
> bit.

IIUC correctly you will be removing more than one commit bit, but again,
I cannot speak for those who made the decision.

"Free Speech" means _you_ can publish anything _you_ want.  It doesn't
mean _you_ can make _other people_ publish what you want them to.

mcl
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 01:31:04PM +0200, Alphons van Werven wrote:
> I'm still half waiting for someone with misguided delusions of moral
> superiority to delete that port, thinking it's their decision to make
> that FreeBSD must not enable people to display their system load as a
> cartoon woman in various stages of undress.



It's not delusions of moral superiority.  It's common decency.

There's no "censorship" if the FreeBSD developers make a collective
decision that they don't want to be associated with juvenile junk
that makes them look like a bunch of out-of-touch clueless old white
guys; that instead they would like to look like adults rather than
some adolescent clique; and that instead they would like to seem more
welcoming to people that don't look, think, and talk exactly like
they do.

But your mileage may vary, and in this case, I'm practically certain
of it.

mcl
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Alphons van Werven]

Grzegorz Junka wrote:

> Could you maybe have a separate category in ports, called "uncensored" or
> something? We are all adults and can take care of ourselves, can't we?

If memory serves me well, that has been suggested before and there were
reasons (which I don't remember) for not doing that. Maybe something can
be found in the list archives.

Fonz

-- 
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mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Julian H. Stacey]

Grzegorz Junka wrote:
> 
> On 22/10/2016 11:31, Alphons van Werven wrote:
> > andrew clarke wrote:
> >
> >> Is this the first time a port has been deleted for being "offensive"?
> > There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this
> > case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That was
> > the base system though; not the ports tree.
> >
> > Come to think of it, I'm quite (be it pleasantly) surprised to see that
> > deskutils/hot-babe is still allowed. I'm still half waiting for someone
> > with misguided delusions of moral superiority to delete that port, thinking
> > it's their decision to make that FreeBSD must not enable people to display
> > their system load as a cartoon woman in various stages of undress. Or
> > something along those lines. But I digress...
> >
> > Anyway, if anyone misses this port, I'll be happy to maintain it privately
> > and make it available from a public repository, if only because I strongly
> > oppose censorship, so I would gladly help circumvent what I consider to be
> > a hopelessly outdated and even morally wrong concept.
> >
> > Fonz
> >
> 
> Could you maybe have a separate category in ports, called "uncensored" 
> or something? We are all adults and can take care of ourselves, can't we?

misc/jive is in 4.11-RELEASE 6.4-RELEASE 9.2-RELEASE 9.3-RELEASE 10.3-RELEASE,
https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/2016Q3/misc/jive/Makefile?view=log

Censorship is offensive. Censor the offensive Censor: remove his/her commit bit.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, andrew clarke wrote:

> At the risk of this developing into a flame war, I thought this was
> curious:
> 
> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-ports-head/2016-August/126687.html
> 
> Is this the first time a port has been deleted for being "offensive"?

"man jive | jive" is quite hilarious, and I almost lost my job for piping 
all man pages through it; the boss had a "drinkful night" and was sure 
that his eyes were playing tricks on him, until he figured out that I was 
the perp.

The man page for UUCP was quite interesting, for example; I actually had 
UUCP running on my home Z-80 box (there were overlays to hell and back).

Next thing you know, "valgirl" will be deleted from Usenet...

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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Grzegorz Junka]

On 22/10/2016 11:31, Alphons van Werven wrote:

andrew clarke wrote:


Is this the first time a port has been deleted for being "offensive"?

There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this
case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That was
the base system though; not the ports tree.

Come to think of it, I'm quite (be it pleasantly) surprised to see that
deskutils/hot-babe is still allowed. I'm still half waiting for someone
with misguided delusions of moral superiority to delete that port, thinking
it's their decision to make that FreeBSD must not enable people to display
their system load as a cartoon woman in various stages of undress. Or
something along those lines. But I digress...

Anyway, if anyone misses this port, I'll be happy to maintain it privately
and make it available from a public repository, if only because I strongly
oppose censorship, so I would gladly help circumvent what I consider to be
a hopelessly outdated and even morally wrong concept.

Fonz



Could you maybe have a separate category in ports, called "uncensored" 
or something? We are all adults and can take care of ourselves, can't we?


Grzegorz
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Alphons van Werven]

andrew clarke wrote:

> Is this the first time a port has been deleted for being "offensive"?

There used to be "offensive" (a term to be taken rather loosely in this
case) fortune cookies, but they got kicked out somewhere in 9.X. That was
the base system though; not the ports tree.

Come to think of it, I'm quite (be it pleasantly) surprised to see that
deskutils/hot-babe is still allowed. I'm still half waiting for someone
with misguided delusions of moral superiority to delete that port, thinking
it's their decision to make that FreeBSD must not enable people to display
their system load as a cartoon woman in various stages of undress. Or
something along those lines. But I digress...

Anyway, if anyone misses this port, I'll be happy to maintain it privately
and make it available from a public repository, if only because I strongly
oppose censorship, so I would gladly help circumvent what I consider to be
a hopelessly outdated and even morally wrong concept.

Fonz

Disclaimer: I am neither the author nor the maintainer of misc/jive.
Ditto for deskutils/hot-babe.

-- 
A.J. "Fonz" van Werven 
mailsig: Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory.


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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Mark Linimon]

disclaimer: I wasn't the person who made the decision.

This change became contentious after it was made; however, that
discussion only occurred on internal mailing lists.

The "pro" removal points: some of these terms are no longer acceptable
in polite society, and far cross the line from humor to offensive.
If FreeBSD is trying to be more inclusive, having this around isn't
the way.

The "anti" removal point: well, just don't install it, then.

I fall firmly into the former camp, and for the reason stated.  At
least one of the terms could never possibly have been interpreted
as humor in my native Texas.

And particularly in Houston, Texas, where in the late 1970s the term
was used in a police incident, in which the suspect later died.

tl:dr; it's pretty difficult to offend me personally, but when I read
that particular entry, I turned pale.

mcl
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Re: misc/jive deleted

[Eduardo Morras via freebsd-ports]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:45:10 +1100
andrew clarke  wrote:

> At the risk of this developing into a flame war, I thought this was
> curious:
> 
> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-ports-head/2016-August/126687.html
> 
> Is this the first time a port has been deleted for being "offensive"?

>From Jive description at wikipedia:

*Jive, also known as the Jive Filter, is a novelty computer program that
*converts plain English to a comic dialect known as "jive", a parody of
*African American Vernacular English. Some versions of the filter were
*adapted to parody other forms of English speech, such as valspeak,
*cockney, geordie, Pig Latin, and even the Swedish Chef. The latter form
*is sometimes known as the "Encheferator" or "Encheferizer". This family
*of programs became quite popular in the late 1980s.

So it's a parody of multiple english speechs. Also, mark it as
offensive is subjective opinion. Perhaps who made the change could
explain better.

---   ---
Eduardo Morras 
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