Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 01:22:53AM -0500, Shaun T. Erickson typed: Steve Ireland wrote: This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. I suppose it's possible, but I know I 've never fry'd one. I'm always unplugging and pluging mine back in. The key to getting the keyboard re-initialized, when you plug it back in - at least under 5.2.1-RELEASE-p3 - is to change hint.atkbd.0.flags=0x1 to hint.atkbd.0.flags=0x0 in /boot/device.hints and reboot. After that, you can plug and unplug to your heart's content. I'm told this setting may have to be made in the kernel, requiring a custom kernel, in 4.x releases. Yes. In 4.x GENERIC kernel, change the line: device atkbd0 at atkbdc? irq 1 flags 0x1 to: device atkbd0 at atkbdc? irq 1 recompile kernel and reboot. Ruben ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Wayne Sierke wrote: On Tue, 2004-03-23 at 16:52, Shaun T. Erickson wrote: Steve Ireland wrote: This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. I suppose it's possible, but I know I 've never fry'd one. I'm always unplugging and pluging mine back in. I'd never fried one either until just recently. Of all things when I plugged a mouse back in. It disabled the keyboard as well. Luckily the 'fried' part turned out to be a fusible link on the motherboard and was easily repaired. This was an old board, though, and I've certainly not had any problems with more recent boards. I'm not sure why fusible links were thought to be necessary. Possibly it was the early days of PS/2 and there was uncertainty about what people would be plugging in to those connectors. But of course, the best solution to this whole hot-plugging issue is this: BUY ANOTHER KEYBOARD OR MOUSE. What you would rather do? Buy a $20 keyboard/mouse or a $150+ motherboard? Heck, you can buy cheap 4-port KVMs for under $200 these days too. -- Matt Emmerton ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 01:10:13AM -0500, Steve Ireland wrote: snip This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. Regards, Steve This is off-topic to the list, but I've been wondering about this issue for some time; not whether a PS/2 device stops working when hotplugged, but whether it may damage your mainboard. I spent a while one day searching on the web for definitive documentation stating that unquestionably you run the risk of destroying your entire mainboard and/or the PS/2 if you hotplug. I couldn't find any. As far as I know the PS/2 devices are supplied power through the port, so I guess it seems logical that hotplugging could be a risk, but other than conjecture and various anecdotal evidence, I have come up blank on the risks. Can anyone on the list point me to a manufacturers site or documentation that unequivocally states in clear terms the real dangers of hotplugging a PS/2 device? Like some of the other people who have replied, in the past I have hot-plugged many a PS/2 device to no detriment. However, I now only do it if there is no other practical alternative just to be on the safe side. Thanks, Nathan -- gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys D8527E49 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Hello, sorry for butting in late here, but this keyboard plugging issue has been a pet peeve of mine for quite a while. But of course, the best solution to this whole hot-plugging issue is this: BUY ANOTHER KEYBOARD OR MOUSE. What you would rather do? Buy a $20 keyboard/mouse or a $150+ motherboard? Heck, you can buy cheap 4-port KVMs for under $200 these days too. That argument just doesn't hold in home environments or low-budget colo environments. Myself and pretty much everyone I know have a habit of unplugging and plugging keyboards freely and have done so for years and a multitude of machines, and so far I have never ever heard of it causing hardware problems. The reality is that it is *extremely* annoying when you need physical console access and find yourself dead in the water because apparently the keyboard was disconnected during boot. Whether that is because of some cabling issue, a lack of keyboards, or something else isn't important - it can easily happen at home. And it may very well lead to some database corruption (or what-have-you) if you are forced to do an unclean shutdown. In a colo situation it can be much worse. In order to remedy the situation you need a digital KVM switch since an analog switch is essentially emulating plugging/unplugging quickly rather than acting as an active keyboard for each machine it is connected to. Not only can such a switch cost more than $200 (at least the ones I've seen) - they can also break (which happened to the one and only digital KVM switch I have ever used), and they waste precious rack space. And even with a KVM switch the flexibility of being able to re-arrange cabling is quite useful. Serial redirection is not always an option in a low-budget environment such as personal colo boxes where you try to really press the costs. How many low-budget motherboards have you seen that support console redirection? Not many I would guess. In short - it may seem like a trival problem but it's helluva annoying and can easily lead to serious problems both at home and in colocation environments. I'm very surprised FreeBSD doesn't handle this by default out of the box. -- / Peter Schuller, InfiDyne Technologies HB PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller [EMAIL PROTECTED]' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.scode.org ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Peter Schuller wrote: Hello, sorry for butting in late here, but this keyboard plugging issue has been a pet peeve of mine for quite a while. But of course, the best solution to this whole hot-plugging issue is this: BUY ANOTHER KEYBOARD OR MOUSE. What you would rather do? Buy a $20 keyboard/mouse or a $150+ motherboard? Heck, you can buy cheap 4-port KVMs for under $200 these days too. That argument just doesn't hold in home environments or low-budget colo environments. If you're low-budget, buy another keyboard! In short - it may seem like a trival problem but it's helluva annoying and can easily lead to serious problems both at home and in colocation environments. I'm very surprised FreeBSD doesn't handle this by default out of the box. FreeBSD should not be working around user's bad practices. It has *always* been a bad idea to hot-plug PS/2 peripherals, and until USB is the norm, will continue to be the case. -- Matt Emmerton ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tuesday 23 March 2004 19.44, Matthew Emmerton wrote: That argument just doesn't hold in home environments or low-budget colo environments. If you're low-budget, buy another keyboard! And have ten+ keyboards in the rack? At home? It's a pain. And even with ten keyboards it's a pain having to reboot a machine just because the keyboard died or because the cabling needs to be re-arranged. FreeBSD should not be working around user's bad practices. It has *always* been a bad idea to hot-plug PS/2 peripherals, and until USB is the norm, will continue to be the case. Again I've never heard of anyone running into any kind of problems due to this. And someone else recently posted about not being able to find any conclusive information on this info at all while googling. So really I don't consider it bad practice at all, since I have never heard of a failure, nor seen any concrete evidence why it would actually be bad. -- / Peter Schuller, InfiDyne Technologies HB PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller [EMAIL PROTECTED]' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.scode.org ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:44:11 -0600 Nathan Kinkade [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone on the list point me to a manufacturers site or documentation that unequivocally states in clear terms the real dangers of hotplugging a PS/2 device? How about http://www.heurtley.com/richard/maintenance.html ? It's basic electronics - plugging or unplugging anything from a powered device has a greater-than-zero chance of frying it. The difference between hot-pluggable USB and risky PS/2 can be summed up like so: re USB: A USB transceiver is required to withstand a continuous short circuit of D+ and/or D- to VBUS, GND, other data line, or the cable shield at the connector, for a minimum of 24 hours without degradation. It is recommended that transceivers be designed so as to withstand such short circuits indefinitely. The device must not be damaged under this short circuit condition when transmitting 50% of the time and receiving 50% of the time (in all supported speeds). -- http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20.zip (a standards document - note required and must not be damaged) re PS/2: Vcc/Ground provide power to the keyboard/mouse. The keyboard or mouse should not draw more than 100 mA from the host and care must be taken to avoid transient surges. Such surges can be caused by hot-plugging a keyboard/mouse (ie, connect/disconnect the device while the computer's power is on.) Older motherboards had a surface-mounted fuse protecting the keyboard and mouse ports. When this fuse blew, the motherboard was useless to the consumer, and non-fixable to the average technician. Most newer motherboards use auto-reset Poly fuses that go a long way to remedy this problem. However, this is not a standard and there's still plenty of older motherboards in use. Therefore, I recommend against hot-plugging a PS/2 mouse or keyboard. -- http://panda.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~achapwes/PICmicro/PS2/ps2.htm (note not a standard) -Chris ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 04:49:09PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:44:11 -0600 Nathan Kinkade [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone on the list point me to a manufacturers site or documentation that unequivocally states in clear terms the real dangers of hotplugging a PS/2 device? How about http://www.heurtley.com/richard/maintenance.html ? It's basic electronics - plugging or unplugging anything from a powered device has a greater-than-zero chance of frying it. The difference between hot-pluggable USB and risky PS/2 can be summed up like so: snip -Chris Nice research, Chris, thanks for that...here's an embedded reference at a hardware site http://www.majikmarcer.com/html/tutorials/entsys.htm FWIW, and hopefully not just a me too, but merely anecdotal evidence: I've blown an AT mobo (old keyboard, what was that ... DIN 5-pin?) this way. Very disappointing. However, I may search the junk closet and pull it to check for fusible links thanks to your post ;-) Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
At 08:44 AM 3/23/2004, Nathan Kinkade wrote: Can anyone on the list point me to a manufacturers site or documentation that unequivocally states in clear terms the real dangers of hotplugging a PS/2 device? Like some of the other people who have replied, in the past I have hot-plugged many a PS/2 device to no detriment. However, I now only do it if there is no other practical alternative just to be on the safe side. No because you would need the schematic of the mainboard and no manufacturer will give you that (go figure.) Power is supplied on the PS/2 pin and the WinHEC standard calls for there to be a fuse on that supply. If you short the power pin to ground while attempting to plug in something (or while unplugging) and blow that fuse, the motherboard is toast. This is not a user replacable part. (you'd have to find it amongst the many surface mount parts if it wasn't already in the PS/2 shroud, and then you would have to pull just that part off the board. I'm sure if you get the Intel ATX Motherboard documentation (need a signed non-disclosure with Intel) it specifies the size/type of fuse. --Chuck ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
- Original Message - From: Peter Schuller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matthew Emmerton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 15:54 Subject: Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?! On Tuesday 23 March 2004 19.44, Matthew Emmerton wrote: snip FreeBSD should not be working around user's bad practices. It has *always* been a bad idea to hot-plug PS/2 peripherals, and until USB is the norm, will continue to be the case. Again I've never heard of anyone running into any kind of problems due to this. And someone else recently posted about not being able to find any conclusive information on this info at all while googling. So really I don't consider it bad practice at all, since I have never heard of a failure, nor seen any concrete evidence why it would actually be bad. -- / Peter Schuller, InfiDyne Technologies HB Hello, I wasn't to post further to this to the list as it is not FreeBSD related, but it seems to be of community interest. Why is PS/2 different from USB? Leaving aside the different physical and electronic designs, the USB spec calls for hotplugging, and the PS/2 spec doesn't. The PS/2 IO spec, written in 1986-87 as part of IBM's Micro Channel architecture, doesn't mention hotplugging all. It probably never occurred to the original engineers that someone would try it. (Ever see a spark when plugging something into a wall socket?) Interestingly, every operating system I've used since PS/2 came on the market either had no way to detect a PS/2 device was hotplugged, or it was disabled by default. I believe that's for a reason. As always, whenever there is a blank spot in a spec, different companies fill it in differently, so too with PS/2 controllers. Here is what I have witnessed first-hand happen when hotplugging: works perfectly, fails to recognize the keyboard without power cycling, fails to recognize both the keyboard and mouse because they were in the wrong ports, and of course blows the MB. Also, just because it worked on one particular MB, don't assume that make and model is safe. As I commented off-list, a likely scenario is Brand X buys its components from various suppliers that have various brands with various models within brands with various revisions within models; each of which may or may not support hotplugging. Ultimately, the question is, what will the particular controller on the motherboard in the box in front of you do when you hotplug it? Two methods exist for finding out: the smoke test (pull the plugs, put them back in, wait for smoke) and o-scoping the ports. Because I don't care for smoke tests and don't usually have a scope handy, I power down. Is it a hassle? Oh yeah, but not as big a hassle as replacing a MB in a box at a colo or datacenter or my desk at home, for that matter. For those with a perverse sense of humor, IBM has extended the PS/2 spec for optical mice, etc. but has not added hotplugging. The perverse part? You can hotplug some of their product lines. But you didn't hear that from me ;). Regards, Steve ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Hi, For some reason, I needed to borrow the keyboard from my FreeBSD PC (running 4.9 STABLE). So I disconnected the keyboard. When I reconnected it some time later, the system refused to use the keyboard. Key hits were totally ignored. I had to brutally reset my PC to get it back to work properly again. What else could I have done, if I can't type a single command anymore ?!? Isn't this silly? Can I configure my PC, so that a reconnected keyboard will work again automatically? Thanks, Rob. PS: If there's no local solution to the problem above, would it then be of help to have access by remote login? If so, what command can I then use to bring my console keyboard back to life again. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Hello: For some reason, I needed to borrow the keyboard from my FreeBSD PC (running 4.9 STABLE). So I disconnected the keyboard. When I reconnected it some time later, the system refused to use the keyboard. Key hits were totally ignored. Is the keyboard USB or PS/2? It is my understanding PS/2 keyboards (or mice, or anything) are not required to be hot-pluggable. Some them, by the grace of the motherboard maker, are ... but hot-plugging PS/2 has been known to fry the (otherwise reputable) motherboard. If it's USB, then check /etc/usbd.conf. Robert Huff ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Robert Huff wrote: For some reason, I needed to borrow the keyboard from my FreeBSD PC (running 4.9 STABLE). So I disconnected the keyboard. When I reconnected it some time later, the system refused to use the keyboard. Key hits were totally ignored. Is the keyboard USB or PS/2? Sorry, forgot to mention this. Yes, it is PS/2. Both, mouse and keyboard are. Is there really no way to let FreeBSD reinitialize the keyboard? Is a reboot the only way to go when the PS/2 keyboard has been unplugged? Regards, Rob. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
- Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 00:42 Subject: Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?! Robert Huff wrote: For some reason, I needed to borrow the keyboard from my FreeBSD PC (running 4.9 STABLE). So I disconnected the keyboard. When I reconnected it some time later, the system refused to use the keyboard. Key hits were totally ignored. Is the keyboard USB or PS/2? Sorry, forgot to mention this. Yes, it is PS/2. Both, mouse and keyboard are. Is there really no way to let FreeBSD reinitialize the keyboard? Is a reboot the only way to go when the PS/2 keyboard has been unplugged? Regards, Rob. This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. Regards, Steve ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Steve Ireland wrote: Robert Huff wrote: For some reason, I needed to borrow the keyboard from my FreeBSD PC (running 4.9 STABLE). So I disconnected the keyboard. When I reconnected it some time later, the system refused to use the keyboard. Key hits were totally ignored. Is the keyboard USB or PS/2? Sorry, forgot to mention this. Yes, it is PS/2. Both, mouse and keyboard are. Is there really no way to let FreeBSD reinitialize the keyboard? Is a reboot the only way to go when the PS/2 keyboard has been unplugged? This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. Hmm, really? I don't know anything about this motherboard matters. However, I used to disconnect the PS/2 mouse. When reconnected again, I restarted the FreeBSD mouse daemon and everything was fine again. Am I just lucky with the mouse here, or is a PS/2 mouse a less dangerous PS/2 device than the PS/2 keyboard? So back to my original question: a reboot is the only option after disconnecting the PS/2 keyboard. Right? Regards, Rob. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
Steve Ireland wrote: This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. I suppose it's possible, but I know I 've never fry'd one. I'm always unplugging and pluging mine back in. The key to getting the keyboard re-initialized, when you plug it back in - at least under 5.2.1-RELEASE-p3 - is to change hint.atkbd.0.flags=0x1 to hint.atkbd.0.flags=0x0 in /boot/device.hints and reboot. After that, you can plug and unplug to your heart's content. I'm told this setting may have to be made in the kernel, requiring a custom kernel, in 4.x releases. -ste ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: disconnecting keyboard: big trouble !?!
On Tue, 2004-03-23 at 16:52, Shaun T. Erickson wrote: Steve Ireland wrote: This is a PS/2 thing, not an operating system thing. You really can fry your motherboard plugging and unplugging PS/2 devices while the system is powered up. I suppose it's possible, but I know I 've never fry'd one. I'm always unplugging and pluging mine back in. I'd never fried one either until just recently. Of all things when I plugged a mouse back in. It disabled the keyboard as well. Luckily the 'fried' part turned out to be a fusible link on the motherboard and was easily repaired. This was an old board, though, and I've certainly not had any problems with more recent boards. I'm not sure why fusible links were thought to be necessary. Possibly it was the early days of PS/2 and there was uncertainty about what people would be plugging in to those connectors. Wayne ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
