while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
Hi all, given how clearly you-all answered my query about 'hostname' (thanks folks) I thought I'd chance my luck. so, let me get this straight... in the IPv4 world there is this thing called DNS and domain names... I can buy my self a name off a name vendor - eg. bergen.org... I then get to own that name... so, Question 1) where does the DNS record for that name reside? with my ISP? with the name vendor? lets say I have a network and wish to name the boxen depending on the OS running on them thus... microsoft.bergen.org SCO.bergen.org Sun.bergen.org Question 2) where do those DNSrecord reside? Question3) surely I'm breaking copyright or trademark laws here? whats to stop me being sued? for that matter, whats to stop vexatious litigation? and what about the name brokers? do they have legal responsibilities? and if I run DNS server on my network am I then a name provider for myself and have to worry about litigation? Question4) or to put it another way, what is the relationship between trademark control institutions and name brokers? -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 And some run up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stones to pieces wi' hammers, like so many road makers run daft. They say it is to see how the world was made. Sir Walter Scott, St. Ronan's Well 1824 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
Ooops... I forgot the most important part of my question... IPv6 how does this all work under IPv6? is the IPv6 domain name allocation as fully fledged as teh IPv4 services? I.e. are there and what are the restrictions on who can set up a name broker service for IPv6? what are the likely gottchas? -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 And some run up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stones to pieces wi' hammers, like so many road makers run daft. They say it is to see how the world was made. Sir Walter Scott, St. Ronan's Well 1824 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
Question 1) where does the DNS record for that name reside? with my ISP? with the name vendor? Let's assume that the name is bergen.org. bergen.org is stored in three places: * the registry for .org (http://www.pir.org/) points bergen.org to a registrar. * the registrar pointed to by the registry contains the name, along with your contact data, and DNS nameservers. * the DNS nameservers for bergen.org will answer queries to everything related to *.bergen.org. The name vendor registers your name with a registrar, which in turn registers the name with its registry (for org, its PIR, for .com and .net it's VeriSign, and for ccTLDs like .fr, .de. ,us, ... its the national registry for that country). Now, the registry responsible for e.g. .org will use the information stored to configure the DNS name servers for .org by adding name server records for bergen.org. In other words, the .org name servers are configured to point to the DNS nameservers for bergen.org. lets say I have a network and wish to name the boxen depending on the OS running on them thus... microsoft.bergen.org SCO.bergen.org Sun.bergen.org Question 2) where do those DNSrecord reside? On the nameservers of bergen.org. These are the name servers you configured at your registrar when you manage your domain. Question3) surely I'm breaking copyright or trademark laws here? whats to stop me being sued? for that matter, whats to stop vexatious litigation? and what about the name brokers? do they have legal responsibilities? and if I run DNS server on my network am I then a name provider for myself and have to worry about litigation? You are totally responsible for respecting coyright and trademark laws. Registrars (and registries) are not responsible for this. In the agreements you electronically sign, you confirm that you are responsible for the names that you choose. If a company discovers that you've registered their name in your name, they'll contact you (using the admin address contact that you submitted at your registrar), and will require you to return or give them this name. You would then agreen to a transfer of domain to the company, if you think that their claim is justified. But if you disagree, you'd enter a formalized procedure called UDRP (Uniform Domain Resolution Policy) so solve the issue: http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm but be careful: nothing prevents a legal name owner for suing you anyway, and you'll have to prove that you acquired/registered the name in good faith. So don't register ibm.com [if it were not already registered!] :-) Question4) or to put it another way, what is the relationship between trademark control institutions and name brokers? I don't know an answer to this. I'd just assume that there are no relationships at all, and that you are responsible for the names that you acquire, from whatever source (name brokers, or self registration). Of to put in another way: the domain namespace is not directly related to the trademark, or registered mark namespace; but generally, TM or (R)'s have precedence over DNS domain names. You would need to seek legal assistance here, if you are not sure about the status of a DNS name! Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 And some run up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stones to pieces wi' hammers, like so many road makers run daft. They say it is to see how the world was made. Sir Walter Scott, St. Ronan's Well 1824 -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
paul van den bergen wrote: Hi all, given how clearly you-all answered my query about 'hostname' (thanks folks) I thought I'd chance my luck. so, let me get this straight... in the IPv4 world there is this thing called DNS and domain names... I can buy my self a name off a name vendor - eg. bergen.org... I then get to own that name... so, Question 1) where does the DNS record for that name reside? with my ISP? with the name vendor? Well, the short version is there are several 'root servers' which anyone running BIND/DNS should laready have a list of- they are the initially consulted servers with respect to which servers are 'authoritative' for a given TLD(Top level domain, eg .com, .net, .edu, ) If you registered a .org domain, one of the TLD Domain servers for .org would be queried, and then down to your domain, eg bergen.org, which would point to who is registered as being Authoritative for the bergen.org domain. This is generally handled when you register the domain name- you're given the option in many cases to have the registrar (eg, Network Solutions, GoDaddy.com (sucky name, but very inexpensive domain registrations), etc) handle DNS for your domain, or to specify your own name servers (which can be hosted by yourself, or someone that has agreed to providfe DNS services for your domain(s)). In theory, and generally in practice, these changes can take up to ~12 hours or so to propgate, up to 48-72 hours to propogate your DNS records to the rest of the nameservers online. lets say I have a network and wish to name the boxen depending on the OS running on them thus... microsoft.bergen.org SCO.bergen.org Sun.bergen.org Question 2) where do those DNSrecord reside? On whomever is authoritative for the bergen.com domain. type at a Unix prompt: dig bergen.org and you'll see the system ns.bergen.org is Authoritative for that domain...although you may want to do a 'dig bergen.com' for comparison :-) Question3) surely I'm breaking copyright or trademark laws here? whats to stop me being sued? for that matter, whats to stop vexatious litigation? and what about the name brokers? do they have legal responsibilities? and if I run DNS server on my network am I then a name provider for myself and have to worry about litigation? This is a grey area (surprise), with both the Trademark owners as well as the 'little people' winning in various cases. AFAIK, I haven't seen anyone go to court over the hostname portion of their site- remember, 'the Net as we know it' has now almost been reduced to simply ftp.domain.TLD and www.domain.TLD at this point, with 'the world at large' rarely using hostnames other than ftp or www. Also, see: http://www.networksolutions.com/en_US/help/legal-info.jhtml and http://www.networksolutions.com/en_US/help/domain-magistrate.jhtml for some info on domain disputes, or Google for 'domain disputes' Question4) or to put it another way, what is the relationship between trademark control institutions and name brokers? See above, it's still being figured out ;-) Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
paul van den bergen wrote: Ooops... I forgot the most important part of my question... IPv6 how does this all work under IPv6? is the IPv6 domain name allocation as fully fledged as teh IPv4 services? I.e. are there and what are the restrictions on who can set up a name broker service for IPv6? what are the likely gottchas? Paul- AFAIK, IPv6 is in fact enabled/capable in BIND currently, but no one uses it- IPv6 will be a LONG time in coming to everyone, with the major challenge being a 'transition phase' where devices (routers for a prime example) are able to handle both ipv4 and ipv6...without that, ipv6 is useless outside of 'playing with it locally.' This shouldn't have any effect on name registrations, they will just eventually map to both ipv4 AND ipv6 addresses.. Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
microsoft.bergen.org SCO.bergen.org Sun.bergen.org Question3) surely I'm breaking copyright or trademark laws here? whats to stop me being You are totally responsible for respecting coyright and trademark laws. Registrars (and registries) are not responsible for this. In the agreements you electronically sign, you confirm that you are responsible for the names that you choose. If a company discovers that you've registered their name in your name, they'll contact you (using the admin address contact that you submitted at your registrar), and will require you to return or give them this name. You would then agreen to a transfer of domain to the company, if you think that their claim is justified. But if you disagree, you'd enter a formalized procedure called UDRP (Uniform Domain Resolution Policy) so solve the issue: http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm but be careful: nothing prevents a legal name owner for suing you anyway, and you'll have to prove that you acquired/registered the name in good faith. So don't register ibm.com [if it were not already registered!] :-) The UDRP applies only to top level names, like bergen. Using trademarks from within your own domain name (as in SCO.bergen.org) does completly fall within your responsibility. Technically, the legal name owners could sue you for infrigement, but it's not clear how the courts would decide on a case-by-case basis. Add to this widely differing legislations all around the world, you're absolutely uncertain here. You should really seek legal advice to be sure. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
as usual, there has been a bit of a misunderstanding... being a loosely typed language, Engliosh is difficult to communicate in :-0 Names, addresses and DNS are obviously different things. I understand where IPv6 addresses come from (sort of). I understand (sort of) how IPv6 works for DNS records relating names to IPv6 addresses what I was really asking is: in the IPv4 world, name brokers sell names that are then related to IPv4 addresses. Legality of the name choice etc. is generally owner onus... Is there a similar sort of (or coincident) naming authority for IPv6 based names? example. if I operate a network, boxen1.example.org, boxen2.example.org, etc., as an IPv4 address space and a second coincident network, boxen1.example6.org, boxen2.example6.org, etc., as an IPv6 based address space, where does the authority to allocate the IPv6-network based names reside? the technical side of it is clear... someone somewhere needs to keep a track of the names... anyway, this is straying somewhat from the core subject matter of this list... On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:30 am, Cordula's Web wrote: how does this all work under IPv6? is the IPv6 domain name allocation as fully fledged as teh IPv4 services? I.e. are there and what are the restrictions on who can set up a name broker service for IPv6? what are the likely gottchas? I don't know for sure here, so please take this with a grain of salt: IPv6 addresses are represented by instead of A records in DNS nameservers. Right now, I think that you can only point .org (and other [cc]TLD) nameservers to nameservers residing on an IPv4 address [anyone correct me if I'm wrong here]. But you could always configure your nameservers (let's say ns1.bergen.org, ns2.bergen.org) to return IPv6 addresses to some names, by adding records to them. But since IPv6 names are not (yet) globally routed on the Internet, this will have local meaning only (e.g. on an intranet). Generally speaking: IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are _never_ allocated by name brokers or DNS systems. They reside at a much lower level, which has nothing to do with _names_. If you connect to the Internet, your upstream provider(s) will assign to you IPv4 address blocks automatically. You would normally not be able to influence this, because it is deeply intertwined with the routing protocols that all network operators use to transmit data on the Internet. You may ask how network operators get their IP address blocks. Check out IANA: http://www.iana.org/ especially: http://www.iana.org/ipaddress/ip-addresses.htm -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 And some run up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stones to pieces wi' hammers, like so many road makers run daft. They say it is to see how the world was made. Sir Walter Scott, St. Ronan's Well 1824 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:43:11 +1100 paul van den bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] granted us these pearls of wisdom: as usual, there has been a bit of a misunderstanding... being a loosely typed language, Engliosh is difficult to communicate in :-0 Names, addresses and DNS are obviously different things. I understand where IPv6 addresses come from (sort of). I understand (sort of) how IPv6 works for DNS records relating names to IPv6 addresses what I was really asking is: in the IPv4 world, name brokers sell names that are then related to IPv4 addresses. Legality of the name choice etc. is generally owner onus... Is there a similar sort of (or coincident) naming authority for IPv6 based names? example. if I operate a network, boxen1.example.org, boxen2.example.org, etc., as an IPv4 address space and a second coincident network, boxen1.example6.org, boxen2.example6.org, etc., as an IPv6 based address space, where does the authority to allocate the IPv6-network based names reside? the technical side of it is clear... someone somewhere needs to keep a track of the names... anyway, this is straying somewhat from the core subject matter of this list... On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:30 am, Cordula's Web wrote: how does this all work under IPv6? is the IPv6 domain name allocation as fully fledged as teh IPv4 services? I.e. are there and what are the restrictions on who can set up a name broker service for IPv6? what are the likely gottchas? I don't know for sure here, so please take this with a grain of salt: IPv6 addresses are represented by instead of A records in DNS nameservers. Right now, I think that you can only point .org (and other [cc]TLD) nameservers to nameservers residing on an IPv4 address [anyone correct me if I'm wrong here]. But you could always configure your nameservers (let's say ns1.bergen.org, ns2.bergen.org) to return IPv6 addresses to some names, by adding records to them. But since IPv6 names are not (yet) globally routed on the Internet, this will have local meaning only (e.g. on an intranet). Generally speaking: IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are _never_ allocated by name brokers or DNS systems. They reside at a much lower level, which has nothing to do with _names_. If you connect to the Internet, your upstream provider(s) will assign to you IPv4 address blocks automatically. You would normally not be able to influence this, because it is deeply intertwined with the routing protocols that all network operators use to transmit data on the Internet. You may ask how network operators get their IP address blocks. Check out IANA: http://www.iana.org/ especially: http://www.iana.org/ipaddress/ip-addresses.htm AFAIK domain names have little to do with your choice of IPV4 or IPV6. There can be only one registered owner of any given domain name and that domain name space could be either v4 or v6 at the discretion of the owner. LukeK ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
if I operate a network, boxen1.example.org, boxen2.example.org, etc., as an
IPv4 address space and a second coincident network, boxen1.example6.org,
boxen2.example6.org, etc., as an IPv6 based address space, where does the
authority to allocate the IPv6-network based names reside?
AFAIK, there is only one DNS system, which is designed to serve
names for both IPv4 and IPv6. It is the client who asks either
for A records (IPv4 resolution) or records (IPv6 resolution),
from the SAME set of DNS servers.
Let's assume that you want to operate *.example.org as IPv4 and
*.example6.org as IPv6 networks. You would have two domains
in the .org TLD:
example.org - NS ns1.example.org
- NS ns2.example.org
example6.org - NS ns1.example6.org
- NS ns2.example6.org
It is important to realize that ns1 and ns2 must resolve
to IPv4 addresses for both example.org and example6.org.
Now you could populate the DNS maps of ns{1,2}.example6.org
with records holding IPv6 addresses, and the DNS maps
of ns{1,2}.example.org with A records, holding IPv4 addresses.
Nothing prevents you from doing both on the same domain!
example46.org - NS ns1.example46.org
NS ns2.example46.org
ns{1,2}.example46.org could contain both A and records,
like, say:
hybrid A some-ipv4-address
hybrid some-ipv6-address
The host hybrid.example46.org would have an IPv4 and an
IPv6 address (they don't need to overlap!).
Now the clients' resolver library would generally ask
for A records, if it should resolve hybrid.example46.org.
It would therefore obtain an IPv4 address from
ns{1,2}.example46.org for the host name hybrid.example46.org.
A client could still ask for IPv6 addresses, e.g.:
% host -t hybrid.example46.org (ask for IPv6 address)
% host -t a hybrid.example46.org(ask for IPv4 address)
% host hybrid.example46.org (same as host -t a ...)
the technical side of it is clear... someone somewhere needs to keep a track
of the names...
You are responsible for keeping track of the names
under *.example.org, *.example6.org, *.example46.org.
There is no such thing as an IPv6[-only] domain name.
If you asked about PTR records, this would be more
interesting... [Hint: ip6.arpa.] ;-)
anyway, this is straying somewhat from the core subject matter of
this list...
Well, yes...
--
Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/
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Re: Ooops - Re: while I have your attention... Names, copyright and IPv6
You are responsible for keeping track of the names under *.example.org, *.example6.org, *.example46.org. There is no such thing as an IPv6[-only] domain name. If you asked about PTR records, this would be more interesting... [Hint: ip6.arpa.] ;-) The reference is: RFC 3596: DNS Extensions to Support IP Version 6 October 2003. http://www.rfc-editor.org/ -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
