Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 10:15:22PM +0100, RW wrote: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:28:09 +0200 (CEST) Oliver Fromme o...@lurza.secnetix.de wrote: Randi Harper wrote: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB Depending on the size of installed RAM, /tmp could also be a memory disk by default. I don't see why it should depend on the amount of RAM, since it would normally be swap-backed. It should depend on the amount of RAM because putting /tmp in memory takes away from the RAM available to the rest of the system. If your system typically runs processes that consume a lot of RAM (like Firefox, ha ha), your system could bog down a lot during typical use if you use a RAM disk for /tmp without considering how much RAM you have and need to use. By default, I think, /tmp should be on the hard drive -- perhaps with an option when partitioning to set it up to use RAM instead of physical storage. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpqwLNGkePpj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 11:39:58PM -0700, Randi Harper wrote: I was thinking that a more acceptable default layout (leaving swap at it's current default size) would be: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB One thing to remember is that these are just suggested defaults. Most experienced users are going to use a custom layout when setting up a new server, so the goal here is to have partition sizes that work for everyone else. Although FreeBSD does work on older hardware, I'd guess that most of the hardware it is being installed on now is less than 10 years old. The defaults we currently have in place are outdated. They are targeted more for older systems, perhaps because sysinstall hasn't been touched in quite a while. I'm looking for community input on this, so feel free to pipe up with your $.02. I think that's a great idea. As you pointed out, the defaults should be for most users, who don't really want to have to think about it, don't really want to have to deal with shuffling partitions around, et cetera. If you have an abnormal setup (say, a computer with a 2GB hard drive or one with 8GB of RAM so you want 2GB of RAM dedicated to swap), you should alter your partitioning scheme to suit. Someone mentioned giving the `home` directory its own partition. I think a separate partition for /usr/home, mounted within /usr, is a great idea. It would help substantially with system rebuilds, backups, and using separate drives for `home`, because that's where the majority of the stuff you want to keep between installs will reside. Basically everything else within /usr (with the possible exception of /usr/local/etc) is just what happens when you install and configure your system in the first place. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpFlW5yiinpn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:36:08 -0600, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: Someone mentioned giving the `home` directory its own partition. I think a separate partition for /usr/home, mounted within /usr, is a great idea. It would help substantially with system rebuilds, backups, and using separate drives for `home`, because that's where the majority of the stuff you want to keep between installs will reside. Basically everything else within /usr (with the possible exception of /usr/local/etc) is just what happens when you install and configure your system in the first place. If you can estimate disk requirements good enough, or simply have huge hard disks that can compensate any requirements, there's no problem giving /home a separate partition. There's no need to put the mountpoint into /usr, because /home could physically exist; in the home in usr setting, /home is just a symlink to /usr/home. Personally, I often put /home on a separate partition, simply because of comfortability. If I can't say enough about how /usr and /home will grow, I go with the default approach. I sometimes even use the one big / setting. One advantage of /home as a separate partition is that you can easily use dump to create a backup - you simply backup the whole partition. You could have a directory, let's say /home/settings, where you keep duplicates of /etc, /usr/local/etc and other files that contain settings you consider worth being backed up. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
--- On Sat, 10/10/09, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: From: Polytropon free...@edvax.de Subject: Re: / almost out of space just after installation To: Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 2:04 PM On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:36:08 -0600, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: Someone mentioned giving the `home` directory its own partition. I think a separate partition for /usr/home, mounted within /usr, is a great idea. It would help substantially with system rebuilds, backups, and using separate drives for `home`, because that's where the majority of the stuff you want to keep between installs will reside. Basically everything else within /usr (with the possible exception of /usr/local/etc) is just what happens when you install and configure your system in the first place. If you can estimate disk requirements good enough, or simply have huge hard disks that can compensate any requirements, there's no problem giving /home a separate partition. There's no need to put the mountpoint into /usr, because /home could physically exist; in the home in usr setting, /home is just a symlink to /usr/home. Personally, I often put /home on a separate partition, simply because of comfortability. If I can't say enough about how /usr and /home will grow, I go with the default approach. I sometimes even use the one big / setting. One advantage of /home as a separate partition is that you can easily use dump to create a backup - you simply backup the whole partition. You could have a directory, let's say /home/settings, where you keep duplicates of /etc, /usr/local/etc and other files that contain settings you consider worth being backed up. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... I agree completely. I also go a step farther and put most other things that I consider user data in there. Like Subversion repositories and non-user-specific Samba shares (E.g. public type shares). I do not generally want /tmp on memory, though. While it can be fun and quite a festive thing, I have far too many systems too limited in RAM to want to do this (my current production system at home is 512 MB of RAM, my play box is 256 MB). The only time I can really think I'd want /tmp to be in RAM is if I already had too much RAM for the needs of the box - otherwise, just give me the RAM... While I'm reasonably happy rolling my own FS sizes, I would be even happier if I didn't have to. As long as we're doing the wish list, I'd guess for this (all numbers significantly flexible): Drive 16 GB = keep current layout? Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = remaining space Drive 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = 1/2 of remaining space, min 20 GB, max 35 GB /home = everything else. And, as long as this is a wish list, how about... 1) When I create, I would love to not to *always* have to backspace over like 17 digits every time to type something short like 16G. Can we just make it operate in MB or something instead of blocks? Does anyone need smaller than 1 MB divisions now? 1.1) If it would take a decimal point, I'd be fine with GB, for that matter. (For compatibility, allow either , or . as decimal.) 1.2) Or if there was just a quick key to delete all 14 digits of number of blocks left at once. 2) When I 'auto' size, I end up deleting most except / and swap partition and remaking (it is just habit I 'a'uto before I think, and no harm in it) except the last few times I've done it, as I deleted all the other partitions, / kept expanding from the default (512 MB?) until it was 1.5 GB. So I had to deleted them ALL and start over. Bug or Feature? 3) Ability to resize any partition directly, if there's empty space left. So if I have 30 GB of my 400 GB drive already decided upon, and I decide that I want /var to be 5 GB instead of 2 GB, I would love to be able to just highlight it and press some key to Resize and it would just move the rest of them up to fit. Of course, Just because this is a bike shed doesn't mean I will get upset if any or even all of this is too much to implement and doesn't make it in any revision of sysinstall. It's just a wish list. In fact, I may pull open the code myself... though I've heard it's pretty nasty... -Rich ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT), Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: I agree completely. I also go a step farther and put most other things that I consider user data in there. Like Subversion repositories and non-user-specific Samba shares (E.g. public type shares). Historically, there was /export in Solaris. The home directory was /export/home, because it was usually distributed via NFS to other machines. Things that were shared, but not primarily under- stood as user data, went there, too, such as repositories, file collections and exported storages - files that have not been connected to a specific user. While I'm reasonably happy rolling my own FS sizes, I would be even happier if I didn't have to. In ZFS, you don't have to. :-) According to your suggestion: Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM I know that there was the idea of saying swap = 2 x the maximum of RAM you could put into the box, but is this approach still valid today? Drive 40 GB = /var = 2 GB There could be a different requirement, especially when someone wants to run a) an anonymous FTP server (/var/ftp subtree) b) database operations (/var/db subtree) and have the /var sizes grow very fast. Of course, there's no problem putting databases and FTP stuff somewhere under /home (which is in /usr in your example). And, as long as this is a wish list, how about... 1) When I create, I would love to not to *always* have to backspace over like 17 digits every time to type something short like 16G. Can we just make it operate in MB or something instead of blocks? There is an easier approach, I'd call it overwrite with first keystroke. This is common for many dialog libraries, such as in Midnight Commander. For example, the content of the input field is 33554432 and the cursor is at the last position; if I press 1, the content is then 1 so I can easily continue entering g and have 1g with 2 keystrokes. The backspace and navigation keys should work as they do now. Maybe Meta-Backspace (Esc, then Backspace) would be available to erase the whole content of the input field as you suggested in 1.2. Maybe this is a nice item for a dialog wishlist for sysinstall. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:00:53 +0200 Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT), Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: I agree completely. I also go a step farther and put most other things that I consider user data in there. Like Subversion repositories and non-user-specific Samba shares (E.g. public type shares). Historically, there was /export in Solaris. The home directory was /export/home, because it was usually distributed via NFS to other machines. Things that were shared, but not primarily under- stood as user data, went there, too, such as repositories, file collections and exported storages - files that have not been connected to a specific user. While I'm reasonably happy rolling my own FS sizes, I would be even happier if I didn't have to. In ZFS, you don't have to. :-) According to your suggestion: Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM I know that there was the idea of saying swap = 2 x the maximum of RAM you could put into the box, but is this approach still valid today? Having just built a desktop PC which can fit 24GB RAM (but has 6GB installed currently), I don't think having 48GB swap really makes any sense. With minidumps you don't even need swap=1x RAM any more, so I've started allocating up to 4GB swap in my machines, which should still provide enough warning of a runaway process. -- Bruce ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:27:31 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 10:15:22PM +0100, RW wrote: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:28:09 +0200 (CEST) Oliver Fromme o...@lurza.secnetix.de wrote: Depending on the size of installed RAM, /tmp could also be a memory disk by default. I don't see why it should depend on the amount of RAM, since it would normally be swap-backed. It should depend on the amount of RAM because putting /tmp in memory takes away from the RAM available to the rest of the system. If your system typically runs processes that consume a lot of RAM (like Firefox, ha ha), your system could bog down a lot during typical use if you use a RAM disk for /tmp without considering how much RAM you have and need to use. By default, I think, /tmp should be on the hard drive -- perhaps with an option when partitioning to set it up to use RAM instead of physical storage. But it's not really a true RAM disk unless you use specify a malloc backed md device - which you should never do because it keeps the /tmp data in RAM unconditionally. tmpfs and swap-backed md devices normally used for /tmp are similar to conventional partitions in that they are disk-based storage cached in RAM. The difference is that because swap is ephemeral there's no need to commit updates to the backing store except for memory management reasons. Most people's /tmp requirements are pretty modest compared to modern swap and RAM sizes, but my /tmp device is ~3 times RAM size and it doesn't seem to create problems when I fill it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
From: Polytropon free...@edvax.de Subject: Re: / almost out of space just after installation Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 4:00 PM On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT), Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: According to your suggestion: Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM I know that there was the idea of saying swap = 2 x the maximum of RAM you could put into the box, but is this approach still valid today? Unknown, but since most servers support more RAM than you are likely to put in them*, I think it would make more sense to set swap to 2x the largest _likely_ amount of RAM (assuming the 2x rule IS good in a general sense). I seem to recall the reason for the 2x was a combination of reasons, but it seemed the most important internally was because the memory management routines in place when the rule was created were built to be most effective at that particular ratio. This was many, many years ago, and heaven knows I could be totally wrong ... so some research may be warranted. *The HP DL380 G6s we've been buying now support something like 128 GB. Drive 40 GB = /var = 2 GB There could be a different requirement, especially when someone wants to run a) an anonymous FTP server (/var/ftp subtree) b) database operations (/var/db subtree) and have the /var sizes grow very fast. Of course, there's no problem putting databases and FTP stuff somewhere under /home (which is in /usr in your example). Excellent point. I was trying to stay away from usage patterns, though, and just stick with predetermined items like how much space do I have available?. Once you get past that, you have an order of magnitude more things to consider, IMO. I think the most commonly increased partition would be /var. Again, I think something reasonably simple like being able to delete the last partition (we'll assume /home at the moment), then just resize /var to be bigger, let all the intermediary partitions slide up and then recreating /home to be whats left now would be simple and may work to handle these cases more cleanly. And, as long as this is a wish list, how about... 1) When I create, I would love to not to *always* have to backspace over like 17 digits every time to type something short like 16G. Can we just make it operate in MB or something instead of blocks? There is an easier approach, I'd call it overwrite with first keystroke. This is common for many dialog libraries, such as in Midnight Commander. That would be stellar. I hadn't even realized it but so many things (in all *sorts* of places!) use that method. A quick glance at the code that seems to be responsible for the keystroke handling (/usr/src/gnu/lib/libdialog/lineedit.c) seems to indicate it's fairly stateless - it doesn't seem to know things like if the dialog still has the oroginal input values in it or if you've already typed something. Also, changes here may affect all sorts of things (since it's as far from /usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/ as you can get, tree-wise). Maybe Meta-Backspace (Esc, then Backspace) would be available to erase the whole content of the input field as you suggested in 1.2. This would be fairly easy to implement, I think. Unfortunately, I would feel horrible for implementing something like this when there's so many serious bugs in sysinstall. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?text=sysinstall I wonder if the delete key, when pressed at the end of the input, would do? Seems like a magic key, but on the other hand, it also seems pretty innocuous. I'm still thinking that using MB or GB as the default might be easier. Maybe this is a nice item for a dialog wishlist for sysinstall. :-) I couldn't agree more. Does anyone really know what the plans for either sysinstall or a replacement is? There's a ton of bugs in it... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: The only time I can really think I'd want /tmp to be in RAM is if I already had too much RAM for the needs of the box - otherwise, just give me the RAM... But it wouldn't actually be a ram disk, that's just just a misnomer that people, who ought to know better, are throwing around. It would probably be tmpfs. While I'm reasonably happy rolling my own FS sizes, I would be even happier if I didn't have to. As long as we're doing the wish list, I'd guess for this (all numbers significantly flexible): Drive 16 GB = keep current layout? Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = remaining space 2 GB each for /var and /tmp is far too high for such small disks, I wouldn't want to squander 4GB like that much below a TB. It's a figure that's hardly ever going to be about right either for /tmp or /var, when it isn't far too big, it's likely to be too small. Drive 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = 1/2 of remaining space, min 20 GB, max 35 GB /home = everything else. Having a home directory separate from /usr is often a good idea, but making it part of the default install is a really bad idea IMO. A desktop user with a largish disk may want 98% of it under /home, a server may need next to nothing under /home. The amount needed for /usr also varies enormously. It's so hard to come-up with sensible values that the only sensible thing to do is leave them on the same partition by default. It's not exactly rocket science to add your own /home partition. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
--- On Sat, 10/10/09, RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: From: RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com Subject: Re: / almost out of space just after installation To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 8:43 PM On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: The only time I can really think I'd want /tmp to be in RAM is if I already had too much RAM for the needs of the box - otherwise, just give me the RAM... But it wouldn't actually be a ram disk, that's just just a misnomer that people, who ought to know better, are throwing around. It would probably be tmpfs. Correction (or at least correction to precision) noted. I'd still rather use it as RAM the regular way. :) While I'm reasonably happy rolling my own FS sizes, I would be even happier if I didn't have to. As long as we're doing the wish list, I'd guess for this (all numbers significantly flexible): Drive 16 GB = keep current layout? Drive 16 and 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = remaining space 2 GB each for /var and /tmp is far too high for such small disks, I wouldn't want to squander 4GB like that much below a TB. It's a figure that's hardly ever going to be about right either for /tmp or /var, when it isn't far too big, it's likely to be too small. So, your opinion is that if 768 MB (or 512 MB, or 1G, whatever) isn't enough, then it's likely that 2 GB also isn't enough? That those who need more than the default /var and /tmp often (or usually) need a LOT more? Reasonable, and I am not sure I could disagree with that completely. I was approaching it from perhaps a slightly different tack, though. What I was thinking of was of defaults for people who will use the defaults. Someone running a mail server is unlikely to use the defaults, and you are completely correct that they'd need a lot more space in /var. But, average Joe may just use it for fiddling around with. Maybe one day he'll start fiddling with MySQL or perhaps even trying to partially or completely host his own email. I'd like him, with his 250 GB drive, to have enough space to at least play with that for a while without worrying overly much about running out of room or having to move DB files or something. For that matter, I wonder if the solution for those sorts is to make a 'simple' mode that does swap and one big partition for everything else? Or make 'auto' do that, and let everyone else use their own sizes? Thinking out loud here: What if 'auto' did one big /, and 'advanced' only laid in the partitions without sizes at all, then for each you'd have to just tell it how big to make it. A special option would be on the /home one, which would be to symlink it to /usr/home. Not that this would happen any time soon - that code doesn't look to be easily convertable to somethign like this. Drive 40 GB = / = 1 GB swap = 1.5x RAM /tmp = 2 GB /var = 2 GB /usr = 1/2 of remaining space, min 20 GB, max 35 GB /home = everything else. Having a home directory separate from /usr is often a good idea, but making it part of the default install is a really bad idea IMO. A desktop user with a largish disk may want 98% of it under /home, a server may need next to nothing under /home. The amount needed for /usr also varies enormously. I had been assuming that someone setting up a server was unlikely to accept the default 'a'uto sizes and would have rolled their own. Under the scheme I had above, the desktop user with a large disk - say 1 TB - would have ended up with 1TB - (1 GB / + ~4 GB swap + 2 GB /var + 2 GB /tmp + 35 GB /usr) = about 950 GB in /home. (Or, well, that'd be what, 870MB out of 925MB or something?) A server with that same drive would likely never have had the 'a' key pressed inside disklabel. It's so hard to come-up with sensible values that the only sensible thing to do is leave them on the same partition by default. It's not exactly rocket science to add your own /home partition. I do agree to some extent. On the other hand, what's the 'a'uto key do now? / seems a bit small, notice the OP's subject? I've never had this problem, though... Hmm. All food for thought. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Richard Mahlerwein mahle...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Sat, 10/10/09, RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: But it wouldn't actually be a ram disk, that's just just a misnomer that people, who ought to know better, are throwing around. It would probably be tmpfs. Correction (or at least correction to precision) noted. I'd still rather use it as RAM the regular way. :) You can't, there is no regular way, it's not 1975 anymore: http://varnish.projects.linpro.no/wiki/ArchitectNotes If you allocate 1.5 x RAM to swap, your system will grind to a halt long before you half-fill it with conventional paging, so you might as well allow tmpfs to use a substantial amount to back /tmp. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:02 AM, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: At least as far back as SunOs 3.5* the installer was able to auto- size the partitions based on the selected distribution sets. Of course, this means that the installer must know the size of each distribution set -- on each of /, /usr, and /var -- and that the selection of what to install has to happen before the partitioning is actually done. I would think that the sizing of the distribution sets could easily be automated as part of the release process, and that the needed reordering of the installation process would not be all that difficult for someone familiar with sysinstall and accustomed to coding in the language involved. 1.) Look at the PR database and search for sysinstall. See all those open reports, some from 8 years ago? sysinstall needs some babying. There are bugs that need to be addressed, and I'm making those a much higher priority than feature requests, although this isn't to say that you can't submit a feature request anyways. 2.) The problem isn't that the current default partition sizing doesn't work with a newly installed system. It does. The problem is what happens afterwords: compiling a new kernel or two, installing third party software (while it's true that most files from installed ports are installed to /usr/local, that doesn't mean that they are all configured to only write data to /usr/local at run time, obviously), etc. syslogd is installed by default, but there's no way for me to know if you plan on logging to a remote host, or even using this host as a syslog server for multiple hosts, or what your log retention is going to be, nor do I know if this is going to be a database or mail server, so I can't guess the size of /var. Knowing the size of the data to be installed is easily enough done, but it's not going to solve this problem at all. 3.) Although your comparison to SunOS isn't really all that relevant, your complaint about default partition size is. This is something that I'm considering changing, although I expect some backlash/bikeshed. I've not yet run into problems with / unless I had more than 2 kernels around, but I have seen a default-sized /tmp fill up due to some third party software. I was thinking that a more acceptable default layout (leaving swap at it's current default size) would be: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB One thing to remember is that these are just suggested defaults. Most experienced users are going to use a custom layout when setting up a new server, so the goal here is to have partition sizes that work for everyone else. Although FreeBSD does work on older hardware, I'd guess that most of the hardware it is being installed on now is less than 10 years old. The defaults we currently have in place are outdated. They are targeted more for older systems, perhaps because sysinstall hasn't been touched in quite a while. I'm looking for community input on this, so feel free to pipe up with your $.02. -- randi ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Randi Harper wrote: I was thinking that a more acceptable default layout (leaving swap at it's current default size) would be: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB One thing to remember is that these are just suggested defaults. Most experienced users are going to use a custom layout when setting up a new server, so the goal here is to have partition sizes that work for everyone else. Although FreeBSD does work on older hardware, I'd guess that most of the hardware it is being installed on now is less than 10 years old. The defaults we currently have in place are outdated. They are targeted more for older systems, perhaps because sysinstall hasn't been touched in quite a while. I'm looking for community input on this, so feel free to pipe up with your $.02. I believe it's been years since I didn't bump up the sizes on an install, otherwise I just end up with all this space where it's least likely to save me from a filled disk in the future. While I am actually running some hardware that is over 10 years old with FreeBSD, quite happily, every single hard drive involved has been replaced due to failure or as a preventative measure. You just can't get general purpose disks that small anymoreI'd think that assuming everyone had at least 10 GB disks at this point would be reasonable. I'm all for increased defaults. -- --Jon Radel j...@radel.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Jon Radel j...@radel.com wrote: I believe it's been years since I didn't bump up the sizes on an install, otherwise I just end up with all this space where it's least likely to save me from a filled disk in the future. While I am actually running some hardware that is over 10 years old with FreeBSD, quite happily, every single hard drive involved has been replaced due to failure or as a preventative measure. Oh, I'm not saying people aren't running FreeBSD on older hardware, I'm just guessing that *new* installs mostly happen on hardware that is less than 10 years old. :) -- randi ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Randi Harper wrote: 1.) Look at the PR database and search for sysinstall. See all those open reports, some from 8 years ago? sysinstall needs some babying. It doesn't need babying, it needs killing. :-) Quotes from the sysinstall(8) manpage: This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and will eventually be replaced. And: This utility is a prototype which lasted several years past its expira- tion date and is greatly in need of death. Actually I hoped that 8.0 would be released with the new installer that has been under development for some time. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be ready yet. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd I suggested holding a Python Object Oriented Programming Seminar, but the acronym was unpopular. -- Joseph Strout ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
From: Randi Harper ra...@freebsd.org I was thinking that a more acceptable default layout (leaving swap at it's current default size) would be: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB Similar enough to what I use for general systems that I vote YES. I'd love to add one more - on a drive bigger than, say, 40 GB, adding a separate /home would be wonderful. Maybe allow up to 20 GB for user, all remaining space allocated to /home? Regardless of the second point, the first point is fine, though. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Randi Harper wrote: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB Depending on the size of installed RAM, /tmp could also be a memory disk by default. I do that on all of my machines. I never have /tmp physically on disk anywhere. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Can the denizens of this group enlighten me about what the advantages of Python are, versus Perl ? python is more likely to pass unharmed through your spelling checker than perl. -- An unknown poster and Fredrik Lundh ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
2009/10/9 Oliver Fromme o...@lurza.secnetix.de Randi Harper wrote: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB Depending on the size of installed RAM, /tmp could also be a memory disk by default. I do that on all of my machines. I never have /tmp physically on disk anywhere. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Can the denizens of this group enlighten me about what the advantages of Python are, versus Perl ? python is more likely to pass unharmed through your spelling checker than perl. -- An unknown poster and Fredrik Lundh ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org personally i prefer the following layout which i use on work kit. The smallest drives we have are 76 gb sas / 4gb /tmp 4gb /var 8GB /home 4gb swap at least as big as ram on box /usr/local all the rest ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:28:09 +0200 (CEST) Oliver Fromme o...@lurza.secnetix.de wrote: Randi Harper wrote: / = 1GB /var = 2GB /tmp = 2GB Depending on the size of installed RAM, /tmp could also be a memory disk by default. I don't see why it should depend on the amount of RAM, since it would normally be swap-backed. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 23:39:58 -0700, Randi Harper ra...@freebsd.org said: R I was thinking that a more acceptable default layout (leaving swap at R it's current default size) would be: R / = 1GB R /var = 2GB R /tmp = 2GB I usually create something like this: / = 200M /usr = 8G /var = 2G /stage = 8G /home = everything else * Root stays small, so I can have backup root partitions all over without feeling guilty about wasting space. * /tmp is a limited-size memory disk. * /usr and /var are on separate partitions, preferably on different drives so I'm not seeking all over creation if /, /usr, and /var are busy. Also, filling up /usr/tmp or /var/log will be annoying but not critical. * /stage is a staging area, usually for backups to another host. I put it on a different drive than /home, so I don't compete too much with my users when, say, doing hourly backups: # cd /home # find . -newer /last/bkup -depth -print | pax -x cpio -wd | bzip2 -c /stage/bkup.bz2 # touch /last/bkup # su bkup -c 'scp -c arcfour /stage/bkup.bz2 remote:/some/place' Could we also have some nicer defaults for /etc/fstab? # Device MountFStype Options Dump Pass # - /dev/ad0s1a /ufsrw 11 devfs/dev devfs rw 00 fdescfs /dev/fd fdescfsrw 00 proc /procprocfs rw 00 md /tmp mfsrw,-s512m 20 /dev/ad0s1b none swap sw 00 # /dev/ad0s1d /usr ufsrw,noatime,snapshot 22 /dev/ad0s1e /var ufsrw,noatime,snapshot 22 /dev/ad0s1f /homeufsrw,noatime,nosuid,snapshot 22 # # CD/DVD: #/dev/acd0/cdrom cd9660 ro,noauto 00 # # CD/DVD/RW: #/dev/cd0 /cdrom cd9660 ro,noauto 00 # - -- Karl Vogel I don't speak for the USAF or my company A society that champions freedom of religion but at the same time countenances state regulation of education has a great deal of explaining to do. --James R. Otteson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Oliver Fromme o...@lurza.secnetix.de wrote: Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@yahoo.com wrote: ... Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? It depends on the FreeBSD version, and whether you installed the kernel with debug symbols. 430 MB space used in the root file system isn't completely uncommon. Nowadays I recomment to spend 1 GB for the root file system ... I have long wondered where sysinstall gets its default FS sizes. At least as far back as SunOs 3.5* the installer was able to auto- size the partitions based on the selected distribution sets. Of course, this means that the installer must know the size of each distribution set -- on each of /, /usr, and /var -- and that the selection of what to install has to happen before the partitioning is actually done. I would think that the sizing of the distribution sets could easily be automated as part of the release process, and that the needed reordering of the installation process would not be all that difficult for someone familiar with sysinstall and accustomed to coding in the language involved. * a commercial incarnation of 4.2BSD, some 20 or 30 years ago; I date myself by having even heard of it :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
/ almost out of space just after installation
Hello, I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? Q2: Will I be able to install GNOME, Firefox, download 30 MB of files, and place them on my GNOME dekstop? (I believe the desktop is located at /home/cstankevitz/.desktop aka on the root partition where there is only 26M of free space) Q3: Which changes, if any, should I make to my system? Thank you, Chris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Hi, Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? That is not the right question to ask :) The question would be is it normal that / is using 430M?. It depemds what you have in / file system. After instal, I have 271M used, but for example, my user home directory is on a separate file system. Q2: Will I be able to install GNOME, Firefox, Yes, the installed software goes to /usr download 30 MB of files, and place them on my GNOME dekstop? (I believe the desktop is located at /home/cstankevitz/.desktop aka on the root partition where there is only 26M of free space) No because you have your home directory in the root file system and there is only 36 MB left, so you cannot use 30MB. Q3: Which changes, if any, should I make to my system? Reinstall with sensible partitioning; for a desktop machine I'd use: /2GB /usr 20~30GB /var 2GB /tmp 1GB /home the rest On the servers I have, have a maximum of 10GB used on the busiest machine, including a full buildworld/buildkernel. Best regards, Olivier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Chris Stankevitz wrote: Hello, I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? Goodness! What version did you install? Q2: Will I be able to install GNOME, Firefox, download 30 MB of files, and place them on my GNOME dekstop? (I believe the desktop is located at /home/cstankevitz/.desktop aka on the root partition where there is only 26M of free space) The default installation used to make /home a symbolic link to /usr/home. Q3: Which changes, if any, should I make to my system? Move /home to /usr/home and create a symbolic link /home - /usr/home That should give you some breathing room in / unless you have the bad habit of running as root and crud accumulates in /root or you keep several old kernels. -- Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/index.html 8800 N IH35 APT 1191 AUSTIN TX 78753-5266 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 02:57:27 -0500 (CDT) Lars Eighner luvbeas...@larseighner.com wrote: *SNIP* That should give you some breathing room in / unless you have the bad habit of running as root and crud accumulates in /root or you keep several old kernels. / and /root should be cleaned as you said, but I don't ever change the size of the / partitions and I personally think they are perfectly sized. I'm thinking the person who asked came from Linux where it's common, and perfectly fine, I might add, to have just the / and /swap partitions. This is perfectly fine, but FreeBSD does more work for you without you having to set up partitions yourself. It keeps busy file systems from bleeding into the ones where the systems keeps its bins. Anyway, I use both Linux and BSD, and I don't understand quite so well why someone said this person couldn't keep things on their desktop, when that stuff is all on /usr You're partitions are fine, and using root for everything and filling up that file system... heh, you could do worse using root that often. Using everything as root is a lot like Heroin; You might like it so much you want to do it all the time because NOTHING is holding you back... But, you might also ruin your life BECAUSE nothing is holding you back. Every time you use it (root, Heroin) you're risking your ass ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 11:28:00PM -0700, Chris Stankevitz wrote: Hello, I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? The amount used (ie: 430M) looks about right. On my FreeBSD-7.2-STABLE/amd64, running a GENERIC kernel with a minimal /etc, my / filesystem is using 443M. However, this has a /boot/kernel and a /boot/kernel.old, both of which chews up 210M each. Cheers. -- Jonathan Chen j...@chen.org.nz -- If you're right 90% of the time, why quibble about the remaining 3%? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@yahoo.com wrote: I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? It depends on the FreeBSD version, and whether you installed the kernel with debug symbols. 430 MB space used in the root file system isn't completely uncommon. Nowadays I recomment to spend 1 GB for the root file system, especially if you plan to keep more than one kernel. Q2: Will I be able to install GNOME, Firefox, download 30 MB of files, and place them on my GNOME dekstop? (I believe the desktop is located at /home/cstankevitz/.desktop aka on the root partition where there is only 26M of free space) All third-party software goes to /usr, so there's no problem. Q3: Which changes, if any, should I make to my system? Make sure that /home is a symlink to /usr/home. You already have /var and /tmp on separate partitions, which is good. Personally I would grow the root file system to 1 GB. It's not strictly necessary, but it's better to have some more space there, especially during system updates, e.g. when updating the kernel you want to keep a copy of the old kernel. By the way, I often don't create /tmp as a disk partition, but as a memory disk. This is unrelated to the size of the root file system, though. An entry like this in /etc/fstab will do it: md /tmp mfs rw,nosuid,-s500m,async 0 0 Afterwards you can use the disk partition previously used for /tmp for a different purpose (e.g. for swap, or add it do the preceding partition which would be /var in your case, I think.) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Blogging: Never before have so many people with so little to say said so much to so few. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
Jonathan Chen writes: I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? The amount used (ie: 430M) looks about right. On my FreeBSD-7.2-STABLE/amd64, running a GENERIC kernel with a minimal /etc, my / filesystem is using 443M. However, this has a /boot/kernel and a /boot/kernel.old, both of which chews up 210M each. Agreed. Other minor suggestions to the OP: check the contents of /root, and move anything large that can live elsewhere and create a symlink. And somethings can just be deleted: if root uses preferred web browser two or three times a year, then a large cache is probably superfluous. Look for any .core files, which can usually be deleted. It is my understanding that - providing /tmp is on a separate partition - / should receive very little traffic, and the size should stabilize quickly. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
2009/10/7 Robert Huff roberth...@rcn.com Jonathan Chen writes: I just installed FreeBSD. After I installed it, I was surprised to find only 26M of space on /. I used the auto-defaults during the Disklabel portion of the install. [cstankev...@crs-m6300 ~]$ df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad4s1a496M430M 26M94%/ devfs 1.0K1.0K 0B 100%/dev /dev/ad4s1e496M 14K456M 0%/tmp /dev/ad4s1f113G1.9G102G 2%/usr /dev/ad4s1d2.9G7.9M2.6G 0%/var Q1: Is 26M free space on / after installing FreeBSD normal? The amount used (ie: 430M) looks about right. On my FreeBSD-7.2-STABLE/amd64, running a GENERIC kernel with a minimal /etc, my / filesystem is using 443M. However, this has a /boot/kernel and a /boot/kernel.old, both of which chews up 210M each. Agreed. Other minor suggestions to the OP: check the contents of /root, and move anything large that can live elsewhere and create a symlink. And somethings can just be deleted: if root uses preferred web browser two or three times a year, then a large cache is probably superfluous. Look for any .core files, which can usually be deleted. It is my understanding that - providing /tmp is on a separate partition - / should receive very little traffic, and the size should stabilize quickly. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org if only we had zfs root as standard and none of this would be an issue. 8) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:39:52 +0100, krad kra...@googlemail.com wrote: if only we had zfs root as standard and none of this would be an issue. 8) You can create one big / partition even on UFS. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: / almost out of space just after installation
On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 11:28:00PM -0700, Chris Stankevitz wrote: Q2: Will I be able to install GNOME, Firefox, download 30 MB of files, and place them on my GNOME dekstop? (I believe the desktop is located at /home/cstankevitz/.desktop aka on the root partition where there is only 26M of free space) Are you sure your home directory is at /home? What's the result of `ls -l /home`? If it looks something like this: lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8 Sep 7 09:55 /home - usr/home . . . everything should be fine. FreeBSD places the home directory in /usr by default, so instead of /home it's /usr/home, and creates a symlink from /home to /usr/home for the sake of convenience. Are you sure that isn't what happened? -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpTvTGd7yu0o.pgp Description: PGP signature
