Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
--- "J. Seth Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their > router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, > but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current > crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track > record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under > $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router > for about that. where are you getting these reviews? the 83x series is a replacement for the 806 and 827 which is a very solid router that runs the full IOS, not some stripped version. the 83x are relatively new devices, so i'm not sure how they can get a bad track record. i've read nothing that gives these devices a poor review. any problem these devices will have will be IOS related problems. i don't see how the hardware can be flaky. > Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the > Cisco ATA186)? doesn't vonage use proprietary tech for their VoIP solutions? i dunno, i'm of the school, if you want to get use a router... then buy just that, a router. if you have access to someone who is a cisco netacad student, ask them to purchase a 831 for you. netacad students have an option for a one time purchase for one 831 for somewhere around $200-$250. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
On 14 Aug 2003 10:39:55 -0400 "J. Seth Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > I have recently been having problems with my Netgear RT314 broadband > gateway router. Having decided to replace it, I started searching for a > new router - only to discover that every sub $300 router I found had a > history of problems. Lockups, random reboots, or worse, they would just > turn into black holes (like my RT314). > > First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their > router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, > but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current > crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track > record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under > $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router > for about that. > > Barring finding a decent, reliable router, I thought about building a > mini-ITX system (with the 800Mhz C3) with a second NIC, and a CF card > for storage - and using FreeBSD as a router. I'm fairly certain that I > can get most of what I need to work going, DHCP client on the WAN link, > DHCP server and NAT/PAT on the LAN side. Apparently, firewall support is > built-in as well. > > What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem > gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, > what were your results? > > Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the > Cisco ATA186)? > > Thanks, > Seth Henry I personally would go with FreeBSD as a router. I have been used both a 200Mhz P1 and a 300Mhz P2 as routers with out problems. I personally have really liked being able to ssh into it su to root and change what ever I want to. It makes for a really flexible system. BTW I would suggest staying away from rl cards. I have a problems with them befor, especially under heavy load. Fxp cards and dc cards have done well from my experience. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
J. Seth Henry wrote: Hello, I have recently been having problems with my Netgear RT314 broadband gateway router. Having decided to replace it, I started searching for a new router - only to discover that every sub $300 router I found had a history of problems. Lockups, random reboots, or worse, they would just turn into black holes (like my RT314). First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router for about that. Barring finding a decent, reliable router, I thought about building a mini-ITX system (with the 800Mhz C3) with a second NIC, and a CF card for storage - and using FreeBSD as a router. I'm fairly certain that I can get most of what I need to work going, DHCP client on the WAN link, DHCP server and NAT/PAT on the LAN side. Apparently, firewall support is built-in as well. What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, what were your results? Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the Cisco ATA186)? Thanks, Seth Henry Well, a FreeBSD router is going to significantly outperform any of those cheapo routers. Which are mostly running either a custom Linux or something similar on a 386 or 486 equivalent. Of course, the issues with them tend to be either buggy proprietary code or flaky hardware. Even a P100 running FreeBSD will easily outperform them, and will be very stable if the hardware's decent. I've used Linux, Mac OS X (Darwin) and FreeBSD as a router, routing PPPoE 1MB DSL, Dial and my current PPPoA 3MB DSL, on systems ranging from a P90 with 16MB of RAM to the current PowerMac G3/333. The hardware you're looking at is massive overkill, a used P2 or Pentium system is more than enough to route cable or DSL. And yes, it will support just about anything you have living behind it. Probably better than the POS hardware routers you were looking at. Hardware routers don't really get to be decent until you;'re looking at a real Cisco (1000 series or better) running real IOS. As a Note, the top end routers out there, Junipers, run JunOS, which is a FreeBSD variant. A Juniper M160 can route OC192's at wire speed (That's 10Gb/s folks). Adam ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
On Thursday 14 August 2003 09:57 am, Jason Stewart wrote: > I've even heard of people using 486's as firewalls, but havent tried > it myself. Many of the SOHO routers use 486-system-on-chip solutions. -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] = The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
> What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem > gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, > what were your results? > I'm using mine for DSL on a PII 333 and I've not seen any performance problems other than some that were the ISP's fault (recently fixed). I'm running FreeBSD-CURRENT on that machine, and aside from the once per month that I update it to the latest -CURRENT, I have no problems. You'd probably want to use one of the -RELEASE's or -STABLE if you want it to "just work." On my router I'm running postfix (actually writing the mail on that machine right now), dhcpd, DNS, and using ipfilter/ipnat for NAT and firewall capabilities, and using dummynet for some basic QoS type stuff. Works great with no performance problems. Ken ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
J. Seth Henry wrote: Hello, I have recently been having problems with my Netgear RT314 broadband gateway router. Having decided to replace it, I started searching for a new router - only to discover that every sub $300 router I found had a history of problems. Lockups, random reboots, or worse, they would just turn into black holes (like my RT314). First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router for about that. Barring finding a decent, reliable router, I thought about building a mini-ITX system (with the 800Mhz C3) with a second NIC, and a CF card for storage - and using FreeBSD as a router. I'm fairly certain that I can get most of what I need to work going, DHCP client on the WAN link, DHCP server and NAT/PAT on the LAN side. Apparently, firewall support is built-in as well. What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, what were your results? Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the Cisco ATA186)? Thanks, Seth Henry ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" Hi Seth, I have a P90 machine with 40MB of memory faithfully serving me as a router with firewall and NAT for 10 users right now. The machine has been stable and works well since it was put into service 61 days ago. I've even heard of people using 486's as firewalls, but havent tried it myself. Good Luck, Jason ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
At 2003-08-14T14:39:55Z, "J. Seth Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem > gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, what > were your results? Under full load, the (old) machine never uses more than 1 or 2% CPU - including interrupt servicing. It moves along nicely. The reason that I tend to prefer "soft" routers is that if you need extra functionality, it's usually very easy to add it. A friend just replaced a FreeBSD box with a Linksys SOHO router and was kind of peeved to realize that he lost: 1) DHCP that's more than trivially configurable 2) The ability to send signed nameserver updates whenever his IP changes 3) IPv6 4) Totally configurable NAT and firewalling For most people, those probably aren't things that would be missed. I'd hate to lose any of them. -- Kirk Strauser pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
> Based on prior discussions regarding minimal hardware, I think the main > thing to pay attention to is the type and brand of network cards you > are going to be using. I would stay away from those interrupter from > hell rl0 cards. You won't be able to budge a 30-40 dollar pentium box Agreed. I ditched the one that was the LAN interface for an Intel EtherExpress (fxp) and picked up at least 2MB/s in peak bandwidth. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
Wow, I think you guys have convinced me. I have had very good luck with FreeBSD on an 933MHz EPIA board. It has performed well, and remained stable for several months now. Nary a single lockup, even under load (though it doesn't like floating point math much - [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashes immediately) Only the network controller has problems occasionally, sometimes causing initial connections to hang for a few seconds. I understand it's a quirk in the VIA ethernet controller - but I've found a dual slot PCI riser board, so I can load two normal cards into the router. One quick question, though - how much RAM should I install in this beast? I have a 65Mb DIMM laying around, but I could probably pull some 128's from my Windows box if need be. Thanks, Seth Henry On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 11:16, Mykroft Holmes IV wrote: > J. Seth Henry wrote: > > > Hello, > > I have recently been having problems with my Netgear RT314 broadband > > gateway router. Having decided to replace it, I started searching for a > > new router - only to discover that every sub $300 router I found had a > > history of problems. Lockups, random reboots, or worse, they would just > > turn into black holes (like my RT314). > > > > First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their > > router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, > > but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current > > crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track > > record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under > > $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router > > for about that. > > > > Barring finding a decent, reliable router, I thought about building a > > mini-ITX system (with the 800Mhz C3) with a second NIC, and a CF card > > for storage - and using FreeBSD as a router. I'm fairly certain that I > > can get most of what I need to work going, DHCP client on the WAN link, > > DHCP server and NAT/PAT on the LAN side. Apparently, firewall support is > > built-in as well. > > > > What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem > > gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, > > what were your results? > > > > Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the > > Cisco ATA186)? > > > > Thanks, > > Seth Henry > > > > > Well, a FreeBSD router is going to significantly outperform any of those > cheapo routers. Which are mostly running either a custom Linux or > something similar on a 386 or 486 equivalent. Of course, the issues with > them tend to be either buggy proprietary code or flaky hardware. Even a > P100 running FreeBSD will easily outperform them, and will be very > stable if the hardware's decent. > > I've used Linux, Mac OS X (Darwin) and FreeBSD as a router, routing > PPPoE 1MB DSL, Dial and my current PPPoA 3MB DSL, on systems ranging > from a P90 with 16MB of RAM to the current PowerMac G3/333. The hardware > you're looking at is massive overkill, a used P2 or Pentium system is > more than enough to route cable or DSL. > > And yes, it will support just about anything you have living behind it. > Probably better than the POS hardware routers you were looking at. > > Hardware routers don't really get to be decent until you;'re looking at > a real Cisco (1000 series or better) running real IOS. > > As a Note, the top end routers out there, Junipers, run JunOS, which is > a FreeBSD variant. A Juniper M160 can route OC192's at wire speed > (That's 10Gb/s folks). > > Adam > > ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
On Thursday 14 August 2003 09:50 am, Kenneth Culver wrote: > > What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable > > modem gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like > > this? If so, what were your results? I'm using openbsd now but have ran freebsd as a router with minimal hardware. P133 32 megs of ram. 30 dollar box. 4 network cards. Based on prior discussions regarding minimal hardware, I think the main thing to pay attention to is the type and brand of network cards you are going to be using. I would stay away from those interrupter from hell rl0 cards. You won't be able to budge a 30-40 dollar pentium box with 32 or more megs of ram with your cable modem connection. -- Matthew Bettinger System Administrator Champion Elevators, Inc. Houston, Texas 77061 713.640.8500 -- Key fingerprint = 1510 343D 41A3 5D55 D3AF 1ED7 72CD 7022 A70A 39F4 http://championelevators.com/~mbettinger/pubkey.htm ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
> As a Note, the top end routers out there, Junipers, run JunOS, which is > a FreeBSD variant. A Juniper M160 can route OC192's at wire speed > (That's 10Gb/s folks). However, the way those are set up, FreeBSD doesn't do the actual routing, as far as I can remember they upload a routing table to the line cards and transfer any changes to the routing table to the line cards, so the routing itself is done by high-speed hardware, and FreeBSD is mainly managing all the custom hardware. We did a similar thing when I worked for Ericsson with FreeBSD. Ken ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
Hello, I have recently been having problems with my Netgear RT314 broadband gateway router. Having decided to replace it, I started searching for a new router - only to discover that every sub $300 router I found had a history of problems. Lockups, random reboots, or worse, they would just turn into black holes (like my RT314). First, and I know this is off-topic, is anyone here happy with their router enough to recommend it? I'd prefer to go with a hardware router, but I prize reliability and stability apparently higher than the current crop of manufacturers. Even the Cisco SOHO9x/83x series has a bad track record, and they are $250/$500 respectively! I'd like to keep it under $300, as I can build a mini-ITX box with everything I need for a router for about that. Barring finding a decent, reliable router, I thought about building a mini-ITX system (with the 800Mhz C3) with a second NIC, and a CF card for storage - and using FreeBSD as a router. I'm fairly certain that I can get most of what I need to work going, DHCP client on the WAN link, DHCP server and NAT/PAT on the LAN side. Apparently, firewall support is built-in as well. What I'm not sure about is performance. Has anyone built a cable modem gateway router using FreeBSD and "low-end" hardware like this? If so, what were your results? Also, can a FreeBSD router support things like the Vonage VOIP box (the Cisco ATA186)? Thanks, Seth Henry ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
On Thursday 14 August 2003 12:33 pm, J. Seth Henry wrote: > Wow, I think you guys have convinced me. I have had very good luck > with FreeBSD on an 933MHz EPIA board. It has performed well, and > remained stable for several months now. Nary a single lockup, even > under load (though it doesn't like floating point math much - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashes immediately) 933??? That's way over kill. Heck my best intel machine at the house is an 750. You'd be wasting that machine if you ask me. The 933 would come in handy if you plan on cvsing and building the source. Since my router is onlyan p133 I just reformat the box every month or so and install from floppies over the net and then scp my conf files back over and i'm back up. Time to do this: ~45 mins ? > One quick question, though - how much RAM should I install in this > beast? I have a 65Mb DIMM laying around, but I could probably pull > some 128's from my Windows box if need be. 65 is plenty!! -- Matthew Bettinger System Administrator Champion Elevators, Inc. Houston, Texas 77061 713.640.8500 -- Key fingerprint = 1510 343D 41A3 5D55 D3AF 1ED7 72CD 7022 A70A 39F4 http://championelevators.com/~mbettinger/pubkey.htm ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
Kenneth Culver wrote: As a Note, the top end routers out there, Junipers, run JunOS, which is a FreeBSD variant. A Juniper M160 can route OC192's at wire speed (That's 10Gb/s folks). However, the way those are set up, FreeBSD doesn't do the actual routing, as far as I can remember they upload a routing table to the line cards and transfer any changes to the routing table to the line cards, so the routing itself is done by high-speed hardware, and FreeBSD is mainly managing all the custom hardware. We did a similar thing when I worked for Ericsson with FreeBSD. Ken That is correct, the routing for the line cards is done on dedicated hardware. Now, they also do route via the management interface, which is done by the kernel. Adam ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003, Kenneth Culver wrote: >> As a Note, the top end routers out there, Junipers, run JunOS, which is >> a FreeBSD variant. A Juniper M160 can route OC192's at wire speed >> (That's 10Gb/s folks). > >However, the way those are set up, FreeBSD doesn't do the actual routing, >as far as I can remember they upload a routing table to the line cards and >transfer any changes to the routing table to the line cards, so the >routing itself is done by high-speed hardware, and FreeBSD is mainly >managing all the custom hardware. We did a similar thing when I worked for >Ericsson with FreeBSD. ``Real Routing'' is usually not necessary on broadband connections since they use a single static route for everything outside the LAN. In fact, having things like RIP running around on an internal LAN can thoroughly confuse some things like the routed program on SCO OpenServer. The average broadband connection simply doesn't have the bandwidth to tax most PC architecture machines. Our first routers were MorningStar 501s, which were '386 based running some BSD clone from flash, and they handled a T1 adequately. Our current ``router'' is a PII 266 running Linux with a Sangoma WAN card connected to our T1. The load average is pretty constant at 0.00 with 99.2% idle time even though there are about 400 ipchains rules in play. If you're planning on using IPSec VPN tunnelling, then CPU power becomes important because it requires a fair amount of horsepower to handle then encryption. That said, we generally use the LinkSys BEFVP41 VPN boxes at customer DSL and Cable sites because they're simple, cheap, and easy to configure for the average user. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.'' ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD as router - performance vs hardware routers
> I personally would go with FreeBSD as a router. I have been used both a > 200Mhz P1 and a 300Mhz P2 as routers with out problems. I personally > have really liked being able to ssh into it su to root and change what > ever I want to. It makes for a really flexible system. > > BTW I would suggest staying away from rl cards. I have a problems with > them befor, especially under heavy load. Fxp cards and dc cards have > done well from my experience. > I have had good experiences with xl based cards too, although they're overpriced. Ken ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
