Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 11/3/04 12:42:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1) Wasted my time and everyone elses who read this crap. 2) Tried to give certain freebsd developers a bad name. 3) Discredited several others on the list. 4) Contributed NO facts or hard evidence to back your claims. I provided many facts, and since no one provided any opposition to my facts, why do you categorically reject them? I can't come to any conclusion other than you don't understand the subject matter. Because if you did you wouldn't think I wasted anyone's time. The start of this thread: I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? The answer: Yes, it will work. The rl0 driver works fine. Be advised it's not the greatest NIC and you may drop packets under heavy load. I've never experienced packet loss, but I've read about it and others on the list have hinted at it before. Well lets see. If a driver drops packets, it doesn't work fine, now does it? Not only is the not the greatest NIC, its probably the worst, evidenced by the author's own comments. So I don't see what facts you are looking for. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
The charter of this list is for people who want answers about FreeBSD to be able to get them. I felt it necessary to join when I noticed that EVERYONE on the list cheerfully steers poor suckers into using 5.x, even though it appears, after having to beat it out of them, everyone pretty much admits that 5.x isn't better than 4.x at the moment, and that even 5.3 is going to be a lower performer. To me, spinning the tale of 5.x to those in search of real answers is violating the charter, unless the charter has changed to shamelessly steering everyone to use 5.x for internal, political purposes. Everyone? Who exactly is everyone? What value do your arguments have without facts? You should prove it, by means of a survey done by a professional company for instance. If it turns out that more then 75% of the FreeBSD users are unhappy with 5.x, then you have a valid argument. But now it is nothing more then saying that Osama Bin Laden is dead. You don't have any prove at all. I was asked for an explanation as to why I question drivers written by a certain developer, and I provided the info. Instead of credible counterpoint, I was told that I was wasting people's time. How am I wasting someone's time when I'm telling them not to use drivers that very likely have flaws? How are you helping someone by cheerfully recommending things known to be poorly done? To not hurt the developer's feelings? Is this forum about helping users or about coddling developers? Optimizing a driver is as important as making it bug free. If they do a half-assed job then criticism is warranted. If you don't like the driver, why don't you do a better job instead? It's fine with me to say that you don't like the driver, but why don't you do suggestions to the original author then? That will help alot more then complaining about it on the list. Or, even better, make your own driver. Its easy to dismiss people who ask hard questions as trolls. Its a lot more difficult to answer the questions credibly. Seems fairly obvious to me. You're claiming things without valuable arguments. I mean, for christ's sake, you're saying that a production release has better performance then a development release. Duh. Even my mom can come up with that. Why does 5.x make that automatically bad? If you don't like 5.x, or FreeBSD in particular, you should hook up with our friend Linus Torvalds, or even Mr. Gates if you prefer. It's all right with me to share your opinion, but you shouldn't do it this way. It's doing nobody any good. Hook up to the current list and elaborate why you feel that the driver is bad, and what you think that can be improved. Now you're doing nothing else then saying things without improving anything. Jorn (In case I'm double posting now, my mail server has been down a few days, so I might have missed something) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 11/1/04 1:36:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sunday 31 October 2004 08:54 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know who Kris is. I respect and appreciate his contributions. I don't respect being lied to. And I don't respect the unconditional rejection of criticism by the team. This is not the appropriate venue for that sort of conversation. Please take it elsewhere Yes Use 5.x! is not technical help. Don't use 5.x because its slow IS technical help. You guys just dont want anyone to say it. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
Yes Use 5.x! is not technical help. Don't use 5.x because its slow IS technical help. You guys just dont want anyone to say it. I'm not about to get into whether or not these 2 things are or are not technical help. But I certainly don't think that anyone does want to say that saying Don't use 5.x because its slow is technical help because many of us see it as largely unfounded opinion. I have seen lots of posts trying to tell you that 5.x is just as fast or faster and demanding benchmarks. While I note that you have not provided any grounds on which to make the claim of decreased speed on similarly configured software running on matching (or better, the same) hardware. I think the issue is more importantly thus: For the newbies as they are called that have asked about using FreeBSD in recent months, the suggestion has been to look at 5.x (and most recently, 5.3). If it is an inferior product, as you say, you must ask why. Certainly I don't fault you for looking out for those who are new to FreeBSD. I think the reason it has been recommended is that anyone looking at FreeBSD for the first time now obviously doesn't yet know how to use it. If they do not know how to use it well, then we can reasonably assume that this person will not be using it on production servers. (Or at the very least shouldn't be as an unfamiliarity with the tools on a production server is a very dangerous thing.) In general, these people are then looking at FreeBSD either for personal use or for servers at some point in the future. In the first of these cases, 5.3 simply has more features for the Workstation. There are some great new tools that are in 5.x line and aren't in 4.x line. (If there were nothing added, FreeBSD would hardly need a new branch.) In the latter case, then looking towards the future is key. The engineers that write FreeBSD (who deserve much thanks from us all) have made it clear that 5.x is the near future replacement to the 4.x line. I believe those to be the primary reasons why 5.x has been recommended for those trying out FreeBSD for their first time recently. Another important point is that regardless of which version they tell us to use, it is giving them what they desired, a look at how FreeBSD looks and feels. I hope that this has helped to shed a little light on our reasoning behind recommending this new and still unstable technology. Even if it doesn't, if you wait a short while, 5.x will (I'm sure) be every bit as good as 4.x was and then some. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 11/1/04 12:47:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes Use 5.x! is not technical help. Don't use 5.x because its slow IS technical help. You guys just dont want anyone to say it. I'm not about to get into whether or not these 2 things are or are not technical help. But I certainly don't think that anyone does want to say that saying Don't use 5.x because its slow is technical help because many of us see it as largely unfounded opinion. I have seen lots of posts trying to tell you that 5.x is just as fast or faster and demanding benchmarks. While I note that you have not provided any grounds on which to make the claim of decreased speed on similarly configured software running on matching (or better, the same) hardware. --- Why don't you want to get into it, since its your entire point? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 11:54:22AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know who Kris is. I respect and appreciate his contributions. I don't respect being lied to. And I don't respect the unconditional rejection of criticism by the team. And I haven't seen any evidence that anyone really has a clue as to how to measure the performance of the product they're developing. I was ridiculed for tearing apart the only test results posted, yet no credible ones were offered. You don't like the benchmarks? Fine, run your own and post the results. You've been asked repeatedly to do this, but instead you choose to continue to throw around unsupported assertions of terrible performance. That's why a number of us are annoyed with your emails. Hey, maybe you're right [1]! That would at least be the basis for directing further optimization work. So, how about it? Where are *your* numbers and testing methodology? Kris [1] In fact it would be surprising if 5.x performs better than 4.x across the board; we know there is work remaining to be done, and performance is expected to improve along the life of the 5.x branch beginning with 5.3. pgpzYOfkEWUO8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Compatible NIC
On Monday 01 November 2004 06:26 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/1/04 1:36:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sunday 31 October 2004 08:54 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know who Kris is. I respect and appreciate his contributions. I don't respect being lied to. And I don't respect the unconditional rejection of criticism by the team. This is not the appropriate venue for that sort of conversation. Please take it elsewhere Yes Use 5.x! is not technical help. Don't use 5.x because its slow IS technical help. You guys just dont want anyone to say it. You guys? I wasn't aware that I was representing anyone but myself. It seems all you want to do is contradict people, and without any data to back yourself up. Some people on this list explicitly steer new users away from 5.x, particularly users who are using FreeBSD in a production environment. Others are encouraging new users to use 5.x for its features, but I doubt that would appeal to too many sysadmins with production servers. If you have a problem with some people recommending 5.x, then you should take it up with them, and at this point I'd recommend taking it offlist - I'd also recommend doing some testing of your own if you feel you have something to prove to them, otherwise they probably won't take you that seriously. As for me, I haven't even stated my position, yet you lump me in with a bunch of other people. There is no point to this. PLONK! - jt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 11/1/04 4:37:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't use 5.x because its slow IS technical help. You guys just dont want anyone to say it. You guys? I wasn't aware that I was representing anyone but myself. It seems all you want to do is contradict people, and without any data to back yourself up Actually, I'm the only one who HAS presented my test data. And as for this subject, everyone knows that the realtek chip is a piece of garbage, so Im not sure who you're accusing me of contradicting. You don't even know what this thread was about to start with apparently, so YOU are the one wasting people's time here. Try reading entire messages instead of one line that suits you. You might learn something. I promise that I know a lot more than you do about the subjects at hand. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
On Friday, 29 October 2004 at 18:09:25 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/29/04 3:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just voiced my opinion. If you want to use them, feel free. Use 5.2.1. with the rl driver. Have the slowest server on the block. What do I care? A lot, apparently; if you didn't care you wouldn't say anything. How much do you say your time is worth, again? You must have donated hundreds of dollars worth of your caring to the mailing list over the past few weeks. Unfortunately, valuing the time of others in the same way, you've also cost the user community many thousands of dollars reading your strangely-embittered commentary. No one is forcing you to read anything. I never copy you on anythere, I'm not sure what anythere means, but by sending messages to the mailing list, you're copying Kris and everybody else who is on the list. but here you are again With good reason. Aside from the few weenies like yourself who think you know everything and would rather not hear the truth, I'm sure that there are many who are a bit more objective and value hearing another point of view. People want to know whats good and bad about using FreeBSD. Your Klan just paints a rosey picture about everything, so nothing you say can have any credibility. You're welcome to say what you want about FreeBSD. Just find a more appropriate channel. Kris was just asking you to respect the charter of the mailing list. I've looked at about 15 messages from you, most of them insulting, some voicing opinions that run contrary to fact, and suggesting that you have a good overall understanding of the project. Given that you don't know who Kris is, it's difficult to believe the last point. In any case: please read the charter. Please abide by it. If you don't, you're in line to become one of the select few who have ever been banned from this list. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 10/31/04 5:00:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No one is forcing you to read anything. I never copy you on anythere, I'm not sure what anythere means, but by sending messages to the mailing list, you're copying Kris and everybody else who is on the list. You don't actually read every message on every list you are on, do you? If you do then you really need a hobby. I scan the subjects and read the 2 or 3 out of 50 that sound interesting. I suggest you do the same. A member of the Gustapo said: Kris was just asking you to respect the charter of the mailing list. I've looked at about 15 messages from you, most of them insulting, some voicing opinions that run contrary to fact, and suggesting that you have a good overall understanding of the project. Given that you don't know who Kris is, it's difficult to believe the last point. --- So the charter of the mailing list is that only good and positive things can be said about FreeBSD, and no one is allowed to make distinctions between good and bad code and/or drivers? Is the soviet union back or what? The charter of this list is for people who want answers about FreeBSD to be able to get them. I felt it necessary to join when I noticed that EVERYONE on the list cheerfully steers poor suckers into using 5.x, even though it appears, after having to beat it out of them, everyone pretty much admits that 5.x isn't better than 4.x at the moment, and that even 5.3 is going to be a lower performer. To me, spinning the tale of 5.x to those in search of real answers is violating the charter, unless the charter has changed to shamelessly steering everyone to use 5.x for internal, political purposes. I know who Kris is. I respect and appreciate his contributions. I don't respect being lied to. And I don't respect the unconditional rejection of criticism by the team. And I haven't seen any evidence that anyone really has a clue as to how to measure the performance of the product they're developing. I was ridiculed for tearing apart the only test results posted, yet no credible ones were offered. I was asked for an explanation as to why I question drivers written by a certain developer, and I provided the info. Instead of credible counterpoint, I was told that I was wasting people's time. How am I wasting someone's time when I'm telling them not to use drivers that very likely have flaws? How are you helping someone by cheerfully recommending things known to be poorly done? To not hurt the developer's feelings? Is this forum about helping users or about coddling developers? Optimizing a driver is as important as making it bug free. If they do a half-assed job then criticism is warranted. Its easy to dismiss people who ask hard questions as trolls. Its a lot more difficult to answer the questions credibly. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
On Sunday 31 October 2004 08:54 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know who Kris is. I respect and appreciate his contributions. I don't respect being lied to. And I don't respect the unconditional rejection of criticism by the team. This is not the appropriate venue for that sort of conversation. Please take it elsewhere. This is a technical help list, not a philosophical list nor a free-for-all discussion list about FreeBSD. Perhaps you should take this conversation to chat-. I'm coming close to PLONKing you, and even though it's not necessary for me to mention that, I'm tired of sifting through the myriad of your completely unhelpful posts - again, to a tech help list. - jt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
Yes, it will work. The rl0 driver works fine. Be advised it's not the greatest NIC and you may drop packets under heavy load. I've never experienced packet loss, but I've read about it and others on the list have hinted at it before. Claudiu Bichir wrote: I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
quick short answer : yes long answer: see hardware notes' it is listed there. RealTek 8129/8139 Fast Ethernet NICs ( rl(4) driver) --- Claudiu Bichir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 10/29/04 12:13:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: quick sho I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? rt answer : yes long answer: see hardware notes' it is listed there. RealTek 8129/8139 Fast Ethernet NICs ( rl(4) driver) Check the driver source. Any driver witten by Bill Paul should be avoided if possible. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/29/04 12:13:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: quick sho I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? rt answer : yes long answer: see hardware notes' it is listed there. RealTek 8129/8139 Fast Ethernet NICs ( rl(4) driver) Check the driver source. Any driver witten by Bill Paul should be avoided if possible. ***plonk*** [1] [2] [3] Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. [1] I am in no way associated with the FreeBSD Project or Foundation, nor America Online, not Time-Warner, etc. I am not a lawyer, nor a doctor, and I have never acted like anything but myself when on television [2] I am in no wise recommending that anyone **else** add this address to their killfile. [3] If you need help in configuring message rules for your particular MUA, there are lots of _nice_ folks on the lists who will be happy to give assistance... ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 12:22:56PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/29/04 12:13:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: quick sho I want to buy a NIC and I want it to be compatible with FreeBSD. Is RealTek 8139 compatible with FreeBsd ? rt answer : yes long answer: see hardware notes' it is listed there. RealTek 8129/8139 Fast Ethernet NICs ( rl(4) driver) Check the driver source. Any driver witten by Bill Paul should be avoided if possible. Or you can do what any remotely sane person does, which is ignoring the crap that the previous poster writes and just use the driver. --Stijn -- An adult is a child who has more ethics and morals, that's all. -- Shigeru Miyamoto pgpgDzUu2zUCG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 10/29/04 1:13:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RealTek 8129/8139 Fast Ethernet NICs ( rl(4) driver) Check the driver source. Any driver witten by Bill Paul should be avoided if possible. What the hell man. Do you have anything better to do than troll? Every responce I have read from you seems something written out of a ad or some buzz of slashdot or something you saw and thought you would spew your techy knowledge. If you have a specific reason you feel a specific driver should be avoided, please voice it. Ok. Bill Paul is an academic who was contracted to write a zillion drivers for FreeBSD. He basically cut and pasted them all, barely tested them, and when he was done he didn't support them. Read his comments and you'll know that he was more concerned with getting done than doing a good job. His goal was just to do them. I've tested most of them. Have you? Have you done anything except listen to a bunch of idiots on this list who are as far from a real network engineers that they can be? Bill Paul himself proclaimed that the realtek chip is the worst controller ever created, but you idiots wholeheartedly recommend it, as if ethernet cards and drivers are generic, interchangeable parts. You guys claim to help people. Part of helping them is steering them away from bad drivers, bad hardware and bad versions of the OS, IMO. I just voiced my opinion. If you want to use them, feel free. Use 5.2.1. with the rl driver. Have the slowest server on the block. What do I care? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 02:51:35PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just voiced my opinion. If you want to use them, feel free. Use 5.2.1. with the rl driver. Have the slowest server on the block. What do I care? A lot, apparently; if you didn't care you wouldn't say anything. How much do you say your time is worth, again? You must have donated hundreds of dollars worth of your caring to the mailing list over the past few weeks. Unfortunately, valuing the time of others in the same way, you've also cost the user community many thousands of dollars reading your strangely-embittered commentary. Kris pgpRyNwyabLQj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Compatible NIC
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:28:22 -0700, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 02:51:35PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just voiced my opinion. If you want to use them, feel free. Use 5.2.1. with the rl driver. Have the slowest server on the block. What do I care? A lot, apparently; if you didn't care you wouldn't say anything. How much do you say your time is worth, again? You must have donated hundreds of dollars worth of your caring to the mailing list over the past few weeks. Unfortunately, valuing the time of others in the same way, you've also cost the user community many thousands of dollars reading your strangely-embittered commentary. Kris This is an earnest request to everyone. Could we please ignore someone who does not have the descency to speak. One can simply go on adding to the troll but does it mean that we the comparatively sane people also go on answering that? Regards S. -- Subhro Sankha Kar School of Information Technology Block AQ-13/1 Sector V ZIP 700091 India ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Compatible NIC
In a message dated 10/29/04 3:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just voiced my opinion. If you want to use them, feel free. Use 5.2.1. with the rl driver. Have the slowest server on the block. What do I care? A lot, apparently; if you didn't care you wouldn't say anything. How much do you say your time is worth, again? You must have donated hundreds of dollars worth of your caring to the mailing list over the past few weeks. Unfortunately, valuing the time of others in the same way, you've also cost the user community many thousands of dollars reading your strangely-embittered commentary. No one is forcing you to read anything. I never copy you on anythere, but here you are again Aside from the few weenies like yourself who think you know everything and would rather not hear the truth, I'm sure that there are many who are a bit more objective and value hearing another point of view. People want to know whats good and bad about using FreeBSD. Your Klan just paints a rosey picture about everything, so nothing you say can have any credibility. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
