Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Hi Joseph and list, this is an amazing community, and I would like to say thank you for all the valuable help I am getting here. Since this is a process of playful learning for me, all your responses have been most welcome, and all have been useful to different degrees and in different areas. Your openness and questions are giving me some excellent opportunities to spread the word on how blind people use computers. Eric, your Dosemu approach seems optimum to me for casual gaming scenarios. Thank you very much for this. Joseph, you are correct in assuming I have been using Talking Dosbox, and so I'll definitely look into your VM solution. Thank you very much for that one. Could you please elaborate a bit on how I might get some games I have on my hard drive into the VM? Is there a way in VMWare Player to map, for instance, drive d: to point to some directory on the host? Or can I somehow mount and edit the VM's file system while the VM is sleeping? Best, Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 04:01 Uhr schrieb : > > Hi Felix: > > > > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you have > everything you need to run FreeDOS. > > > > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it. > > > > I put together a version of FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 a couple months ago. Here is > the instruction files I posted back then. > > > > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured for > com9 as one of the ports. If that’s the case, just substitute com9 for the > reference to com3. Anyway, here is the instructions file I put together > along with links that should get you on the way. You probably don’t need to > download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, but, it just > depends on what you want. > > > > Reply to me off-list at: > > > > joseph.nor...@gmail.com > > > > if you have any questions: > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Dear FreeDOS community, it's great to be here, and amazing that a project such as FreeDOS exists, preserving access to some of the greatest software ever written. My name is Felix Grützmacher. I am 39, I work as a software developer in assistive technology, and I was born blind. In my spare time I play such video games as are accessible to me, my blindness restricting this set of games to mostly text adventure games from the 80s and early 90s, a fact which I don't find restricting at all because some of the best games are contained in this descriptor. ... Which brings me to my question. A substantial subset of these games don't run natively on Windows, which is the platform I mostly use. I can run some of them with the help of Dosbox, but this approach requires that a native DOS screen reader be running in the Dosbox environment, sending its output to a serial port which I redirect and pass to a speech synthesizer emulator running on the host computer. It sounds just as messy as it is, and it is slow as ... well, let's just say it does not exactly qualify as a walk in the park as it relies on an impressive chain of components. As soon as one of those stops working, I am literally left in the dark. Without speech output, that is. To make matters worse, I have grown rather disenchanted with Dosbox recently as it seems to have emulation problems which surface in some of the games I'd like to run, in some instances leading to garbage output. It's not really DOS, after all, but a thin layer atop Windows to run DOS games. FreeDOS to the rescue, or so I thought, but I have yet to find any documentation on how to create a blind-friendly environment with it. A native install seems to be out of the question: neither does my computer hav a serial port, nor am I in possession of a hardware speech synthesizer. The former might be acquired, but the latter, alas, is no longer on sale. So I guess what I need is a virtual machine running FreeDOS, but I have no idea how to install FreeDOS on a virtual machine without sighted assistance, and even if this could be accomplished, how would I then install a screen reader into that virtual machine, or for that matter, how would I get any files downloaded from the net into that virtual environment? If you have come this far in reading my ramblings, I hope you will be so kind as to offer some advice. And if the last few paragraphs have made no sense whatsoever, consider my question to be as follows: What is the established route by which a blind user may install and use FreeDOS? All the best, Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Hi Eric! Thank you for your helpful suggestions! While they may ultimately come in handy if all else fails, I was actually hoping, coming from operating system A, that I would not have to familiarize myself with operating system C first in order to then use operating system B. In fact, since I don't really feel confident enough to install Linux natively on my machine alongside Windows 10, again I would need to go the virtual route, only now with an additional step of indirection, namely, Dosemu2 running on Linux running on Windows. Is that even viable, by the way? On a related note, how does Dosemu actually stack up compared to FreeDOS in a virtual machine? Is Dosemu2 considered mature enough to be an alternative to FreeDOS, or is it, like Dosbox, an attempt at getting DOS-like behavior from a non-DOS machine without doing actual deep virtualization? Can FreeDOS genuinely run inside Dosemu2, and is there any documentation on how to get it up and running on an existing Linux system? All the best, Felix Am So., 15. März 2020 um 18:04 Uhr schrieb Eric Auer : > > > Hi Felix, welcome to FreeDOS! > > If you do not like dosbox, you may want to try > dosemu2 in Linux. That way, you can use Linux > audio drivers and speech synthesizers, which is > probably easier than using DOS ones, while still > being able to switch away from dosbox. > > While dosemu2 is more modern, you can fall back to > a pre-packaged dosemu which various Linux distros > have available. It can be run either in a plain > text mode or graphically and the plain text mode > can be used in terminal or console, which should > make it convenient to use with standard speech > output functionality in Linux graphical desktops. > > Ironically, I do not know how to enable speech > in non-graphical Linux, but probably other users > here can make suggestions. Linux also has BRLTTY > support for Braille displays, which in turn can > be connected to speech software which might be > easier to use in non-graphical contexts. > Regards, Eric > > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Hello Mateusz, there is no such thing as a dumb question when asked in the spirit in which you are asking. Let me clarify inline below: > FreeDOS - and DOS in general - is a text-based system, hence one could > technically imagine that a virtualization platform could be able to > provide an embedded screen reader that reads whatever is present in the > VGA buffer. Whether such a contraption exists I have no clue. And neither do I, which is why I chose to run Dosbox and redirect its serial port output to an emulated speech synth on the host. Were I given a way to browse the VGA buffer in some VM, I would be overjoyed. > Questions: how can a blind user install any operating system at all on a > PC? Are there some tricks that allow such feat, or is this a step that > always require sighted assistance? Most operating systems have built-in accessibility features accomodating for blind users. For example, during Windows setup one could press ctrl+Windows+enter to start Narrator, the native Windows screen reader. On MacOS you would bring up VoiceOver with command+f5. And on Ubuntu you would press alt+super+s to start Orca. Pretty much every operating system that's been around for more than two decades has evolved some way to do this. I was actually hoping FreeDOS could be counted among that lot. > You are mentioning serial port and hardware speech synth. I can only > suppose that blind users would connect such synth to an RS-232 port and > provide appropriate instructions to the program or OS so they output > meaningful descriptions over this port. But you say these hardware > gimmicks aren't in sales any longer - what are the current ways that > blind people use for interacting with computers? Are there some software > standards or APIs for screen reader emulation? There are screen readers for Windows, most kinds of Linux, as well as MacOS, and they all use software speech synthesizers which are accessed through dedicated APIs. On Windows this API would be called SAPI, while on Linux it is the so-called Speech Dispatcher which is part of BRLTTY. DOS didn't have memory-resident software speech synthesizers, which is why people connected hardware ones to RS-232 ports just as you assumed, and used special TSR programs to grab text as it was displayed, and to browse the VGA buffer. The installation itself wasn't accessible, of course, but then again this was the 20th century, and now we can do better, or so I hope. All the best, Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Sorry for the double-post, but I forgot to mention one detail: The old DOS screen readers worked in two ways: (a) by hijacking interrupt 21h so they'd be the first to know when a program wrote to the screen, and to grab (and act upon) keystrokes. (b) by directly accessing the video buffer to enable browsing screen content, independently of whether or not it had gone through int 21h or had been mov'd there directly. I hope I'm making any sense. I'm more of a mathematician than a programmer, but I'm doing my best to use the terminology correctly, and I feel this is very old code we're talking here. Best, Felix Am So., 15. März 2020 um 18:35 Uhr schrieb Felix G. : > > Hello Mateusz, > there is no such thing as a dumb question when asked in the spirit in > which you are asking. Let me clarify inline below: > > > FreeDOS - and DOS in general - is a text-based system, hence one could > > technically imagine that a virtualization platform could be able to > > provide an embedded screen reader that reads whatever is present in the > > VGA buffer. Whether such a contraption exists I have no clue. > > And neither do I, which is why I chose to run Dosbox and redirect its > serial port output to an emulated speech synth on the host. Were I > given a way to browse the VGA buffer in some VM, I would be overjoyed. > > > Questions: how can a blind user install any operating system at all on a > > PC? Are there some tricks that allow such feat, or is this a step that > > always require sighted assistance? > > Most operating systems have built-in accessibility features > accomodating for blind users. For example, during Windows setup one > could press ctrl+Windows+enter to start Narrator, the native Windows > screen reader. On MacOS you would bring up VoiceOver with command+f5. > And on Ubuntu you would press alt+super+s to start Orca. Pretty much > every operating system that's been around for more than two decades > has evolved some way to do this. I was actually hoping FreeDOS could > be counted among that lot. > > > You are mentioning serial port and hardware speech synth. I can only > > suppose that blind users would connect such synth to an RS-232 port and > > provide appropriate instructions to the program or OS so they output > > meaningful descriptions over this port. But you say these hardware > > gimmicks aren't in sales any longer - what are the current ways that > > blind people use for interacting with computers? Are there some software > > standards or APIs for screen reader emulation? > > There are screen readers for Windows, most kinds of Linux, as well as > MacOS, and they all use software speech synthesizers which are > accessed through dedicated APIs. On Windows this API would be called > SAPI, while on Linux it is the so-called Speech Dispatcher which is > part of BRLTTY. DOS didn't have memory-resident software speech > synthesizers, which is why people connected hardware ones to RS-232 > ports just as you assumed, and used special TSR programs to grab text > as it was displayed, and to browse the VGA buffer. The installation > itself wasn't accessible, of course, but then again this was the 20th > century, and now we can do better, or so I hope. > All the best, > Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Hi Mateusz, I agree it is convoluted, but it's fun to play with such things. The user experience is less than optimum because NVDA has its own ideas about what part of a terminal window has changed between consecutive states. So the virtualization approach is not off the table and is, indeed, scheduled for tonight. Working in such environments is just a matter of training. No outstanding memory or very high IQ or any such thing is required. Rather, when working this way on a daily basis, your memory would gradually adjust to this kind of demand, just as it naturally learned over time to recall points of interest when driving, if indeed you do drive. Our brains wire in such a way that we develop an encoding which is isomorphous to the aspects of reality to which we relate, which is the exact same process as learning a language. You might go so far as to say that reality itself is a self-processing self-configuring language, but now that's metaphysics and way off topic. Best, Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:46 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > > Wow, that is much more convoluted than I was expecting. I'm impressed > you were able to figure out such a solution. > > Is this NVDA-over-ssh-over-dosemu approach providing satisfying > usability compared to a native DOS screen reader like JAWS or ASAP? In > other words, is there any point in trying to run a native screen reader > within FreeDOS? As a test I tried this morning using FreeDOS being > blindfolded, using only JAWS + espeak, and I am staggered how you guys > are able to do anything at all in such environment. I was barely able to > open a text file, and failed miserably trying to edit it - all this seem > to require an outstanding memory just to keep track of what is supposed > to be displayed on the screen at any given moment. > > Mateusz > > > > On 16/03/2020 14:20, Felix G. wrote: > > Hi Mateusz, > > I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu, > > then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode. > > In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and > > reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the > > DOS environment. > > Here is how I got Dosemu2: > > $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa > > $ sudo apt-get install dosemu2 > > I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and > > copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I > > also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that > > comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys > > until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather > > convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just > > a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it > > and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu. > > Best, > > Felix > > > > Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > >> > >> On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote: > >>> In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level > >>> 9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2 > >> > >> May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen > >> reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm > >> geniunely curious. > >> > >> Mateusz > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Made my day! I'll try the FTP way, then I won't constantly be creating ISOs just because something else came to mind. In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level 9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2, so functionally I'm already mostly where I wanted to be. Ask away if you'd like to replicate. Nostalgia knows no bounds, though, and will carry me into VM land tonight. Best, Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 12:37 Uhr schrieb : > > Hi: > > > > VMWare itself does not provide a solution for copying files into the DOS > system. > > > > However, one way I did is using ftp. > > > > FreeDOS comes with an ftp server that you can start up. > > > > You need to edit the configuration file to put in the User name and password > you want to set up, then, once you start the program, you can use FTP on the > host to upload files into your system. > > > > What I would do is to zip up any set of files I wanted and then upload it > using ftp. > > > > Then, I can go into the DOS system, stop the FTP server with ctrl+x and then > unzip the files I just uploaded, since zip and unzip are already included. > > > > Here's another thought, and this has also worked for me. > > > > If you have a way to create ISO files, you can create an ISO file containing > whatever software you have and have VMWare mount that file. > > > > FreeDOS has CD-Rom support built in, so upon next bootup, it should find your > mounted iso, and you can have a CD-Rom full of stuff you can manipulate. > > > > There may be a samba client or other network client in there, but, my family > and other obligations prevent me from committing a lot of time to this. > > > > I basically set it up and hoped someone with more time might be able to > improve on it. > > > > Maybe later today, I can try building another image with provox in it, but, I > can't be sure, depending on what happens around here. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: Felix G. > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 4:38 AM > To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. > Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using > FreeDOS as a blind user > > > > Hi Joseph and list, > > this is an amazing community, and I would like to say thank you for > > all the valuable help I am getting here. Since this is a process of > > playful learning for me, all your responses have been most welcome, > > and all have been useful to different degrees and in different areas. > > Your openness and questions are giving me some excellent opportunities > > to spread the word on how blind people use computers. > > Eric, your Dosemu approach seems optimum to me for casual gaming > > scenarios. Thank you very much for this. > > Joseph, you are correct in assuming I have been using Talking Dosbox, > > and so I'll definitely look into your VM solution. Thank you very much > > for that one. Could you please elaborate a bit on how I might get some > > games I have on my hard drive into the VM? Is there a way in VMWare > > Player to map, for instance, drive d: to point to some directory on > > the host? Or can I somehow mount and edit the VM's file system while > > the VM is sleeping? > > Best, > > Felix > > > > Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 04:01 Uhr schrieb : > > > > > > Hi Felix: > > > > > > > > > > > > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you > > have everything you need to run FreeDOS. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I put together a version of FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 a couple months ago. Here is > > the instruction files I posted back then. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured for > > com9 as one of the ports. If that’s the case, just substitute com9 for the > > reference to com3. Anyway, here is the instructions file I put together > > along with links that should get you on the way. You probably don’t need > > to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, but, it just > > depends on what you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply to me off-list at: > > > > > > > > > > > > joseph.nor...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > if you have any questions: >
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user
Hi Mateusz, I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu, then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode. In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the DOS environment. Here is how I got Dosemu2: $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa $ sudo apt-get install dosemu2 I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu. Best, Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > > On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote: > > In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level > > 9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2 > > May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen > reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm > geniunely curious. > > Mateusz > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user
Which is exactly why I'd love to boot natively into DOS, but as soon as I do this, my accessibility provisions break down. This is why I sometimes tend to sound like a grumpy old accessibility evangelist ranting about how everything is so much more complicated just because one sensory channel doesn't work. You should listen to me sometimes. Right now I caught myself rambling to a friend about how I need to invent convoluted cascades of virtualizations and emulations just to get an old game to run as it's supposed to, whereas a sighted person would just grab an old laptop, install FreeDOS natively, burn all their vaforite games to a cd and enjoy the ride. Oops, sorry, did it again. Best, Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Bret Johnson : > > I'm not sure if it will end up being relevant to this discussion or not, but > I use VMWare version 14 under Windows 10 to create a virtual machine for DOS. > I prefer MS-DOS to FreeDOS for various reasons, though I do use some of the > FreeDOS utilities. I actually have the machine set up to dual-boot, where I > can either boot Windows 10 or boot directly to "real" DOS. Virtual machines > are nice for some things, but they are far from a panacea. > > The main reason I like VMWare is that it allows you to use a real partition > on the hard drive as one of the disks in the DOS virtual machine. You are > not limited to "software hard drives" like you are in most other VM's. That > is, whatever I do to the hard drive in the DOS VM (or even directly from > Windows) automatically shows up when I boot to real DOS and vice versa. I > don't need to do any FTP'ing or creating new ISO's or even remembering what I > need to change the next time I boot up to keep my real DOS and my Virtual DOS > synchronized. > > The ability to access a real hard drive (or partition) from inside the DOS VM > is the part of VMWare that I really like. The part I really dislike is that > it does a VERY bad job of handling the keyboard. Inside the DOS VM the > modifier keys (Shift, Control, Alt) are constantly getting "stuck" and the > keyboard releases for some reason are not always correctly sent to the VM. > I'm constantly needing to press the modifier keys in the middle of my VM > sessions so the key releases are recognized like they're supposed to be. For > that reason, I don't use the VMWare Virtual DOS for any serious work since > it's a real PITA to use the keyboard. > > I do know that DOSBox will also let you access real partitions, but almost > none of the DOS programs I use work properly in DOSBox. DOSBox is FAR from > being a "real" DOS environment and is very limited in what you can do with it. > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] C: location
Hi Regan, I'll be happy to assist with that within the constraints of limited time and resources. Let's take it to private email from here on out. Best, Felix Am Do., 2. Apr. 2020 um 23:22 Uhr schrieb Regan Russell : > > Hi Felix, > I am am app developer. I am working on a bank app. A blind person > has threatened to take the bank to a special discrimination court. I am > working to fix the accessibility aspects of the app. I got the idea to write > a book on accessibility for iOS and Android developers. I might put it on > iBooks or approach publishers. > Can I talk to you about it? Maybe you could be a reviewer? > > Regan > > ____ > From: Felix G. > Sent: Thursday, 2 April 2020 8:23 PM > To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. > > Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] C: location > > Hi, > you may use the boot screen blind, with VoiceOver on the Mac. You can > start it with cmd+f5. > I actually am blind so I know it works. > HTH, > Felix > > Am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020 um 20:32 Uhr schrieb RJ Givens > : > > > > Ok, so I got ATIFlash to run form > > Booting by disk, but it is not seeing the RX580, it is only seeing the > > original video card ( have to leave it in otherwise I don’t get the boot > > screen when holding down option) > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Eric Auer wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > >> Would that work if I have a second graphics card ? > > > > > > To be honest, I am pessimistic. I once tried to use > > > the real graphics card of a commercial VMWare server > > > workstation for GPU calculations by making it visible > > > to the OS inside the virtual computer and just got the > > > ability to crash the real hardware :-p I actually had > > > more luck to tune a DJGPP app into using 2 PCI or AGP > > > graphics cards simultaneously by PCI bus config tricks. > > > > > >> If the Mac Pro 5,1 would let you boot from USB, > > >> this wouldn’t be an issue. > > > > > > Or from CD or DVD, but I guess the Mac firmware has > > > never introduced PC compatible BIOS since they went > > > for PC compatible CPU? So, as said, you would have > > > to first load a CSM BIOS layer and I have no idea > > > whether that ever has been done successfully yet? > > > > > > Given that Mac are a lot more expensive than PC > > > anyway, you could maybe just acquire any simple > > > new or 2nd hand PC with the right slot (PCIe?) > > > for the graphics card, plug it there, boot DOS > > > from CD or USB, update your graphics BIOS, put > > > the graphics card back in the PC... Few 100 USD > > > should be plenty. Or of course ask any friend or > > > shop whether they let you use their PC for the > > > task, which should take at most a few hours to > > > figure out and then just a few minutes to do? > > > > > > Regards, Eric > > > > > > PS: It surprises me that you have no Mac version > > > of the VGA BIOS update installer tool available. > > > Maybe you just need the right Mac terminology to > > > find whatever Apple calls the DOS tool you have? > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Freedos-user mailing list > > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > > > > > ___ > > Freedos-user mailing list > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] C: location
Hi! The C: drive does not map directly to a folder on your host machine. What I would suggest, because it worked great for me, is that you create an ISO image containing your files then mount that to your VM as a CD ROM. Note that files you copy off of CD ROM in the DOS context will have the read-only attribute set, which may need to be removed with attrib for some applications. Hope this helps. Best, Felix Am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020 um 00:25 Uhr schrieb RJ Givens : > > I’ve just installed Freedos 1.2 in VMWare on OSX. Does anyone know where I > might be able to find the c: drive location? > > I need to flash a bios on my video card and need to drop some files in the > FreeDos C: > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] C: location
Hi, you may use the boot screen blind, with VoiceOver on the Mac. You can start it with cmd+f5. I actually am blind so I know it works. HTH, Felix Am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020 um 20:32 Uhr schrieb RJ Givens : > > Ok, so I got ATIFlash to run form > Booting by disk, but it is not seeing the RX580, it is only seeing the > original video card ( have to leave it in otherwise I don’t get the boot > screen when holding down option) > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Eric Auer wrote: > > > > > > Hi! > > > >> Would that work if I have a second graphics card ? > > > > To be honest, I am pessimistic. I once tried to use > > the real graphics card of a commercial VMWare server > > workstation for GPU calculations by making it visible > > to the OS inside the virtual computer and just got the > > ability to crash the real hardware :-p I actually had > > more luck to tune a DJGPP app into using 2 PCI or AGP > > graphics cards simultaneously by PCI bus config tricks. > > > >> If the Mac Pro 5,1 would let you boot from USB, > >> this wouldn’t be an issue. > > > > Or from CD or DVD, but I guess the Mac firmware has > > never introduced PC compatible BIOS since they went > > for PC compatible CPU? So, as said, you would have > > to first load a CSM BIOS layer and I have no idea > > whether that ever has been done successfully yet? > > > > Given that Mac are a lot more expensive than PC > > anyway, you could maybe just acquire any simple > > new or 2nd hand PC with the right slot (PCIe?) > > for the graphics card, plug it there, boot DOS > > from CD or USB, update your graphics BIOS, put > > the graphics card back in the PC... Few 100 USD > > should be plenty. Or of course ask any friend or > > shop whether they let you use their PC for the > > task, which should take at most a few hours to > > figure out and then just a few minutes to do? > > > > Regards, Eric > > > > PS: It surprises me that you have no Mac version > > of the VGA BIOS update installer tool available. > > Maybe you just need the right Mac terminology to > > find whatever Apple calls the DOS tool you have? > > > > > > > > ___ > > Freedos-user mailing list > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user
Hello Joseph, I'm loving your live image! However, I'm unsuccessfully trying to find the place in fdauto.bat or fdconfig.sys where it loads asap, because maybe I'd like to replace asap with hal for kicks, or giggles, or both. Could you please enlighten me? Best, Felix Am Mi., 18. März 2020 um 17:02 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > > On 18/03/2020 16:54, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote: > > I just booted into FreeDOS and it worked ok. Pressing /l told me I was > > on line 25 and read the DOS prompt. > > Sounds nice. Thanks for confirming, at least I know now that it is > supposed to work out of the box. It must be something off with my > VirtualBox configuration then - in fact I tested ASAP right now and it > immediately freezes. The only screen reader that appears to work for me > is JAWS. I suspect this has to do with some RTS/CTS emulation glitch > within VirtualBox, I will have to do some deeper investigations. > > cheers, > Mateusz > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user
Hello everyone, I'd like to report that I got FreeDOS to work, and speak to me, from a virtual machine using a speech synthesizer emulator on the host, thanks to Joseph's kind help in the form of valuable advice and a great live image with ASAP. I was also able to get files into the VM by converting a folder to an iso then mounting that as a virtual CD-ROM. Still moderately convoluted, as I am the first to admit. Karen, I agree with you, based on first principles, that every operating system should be accessible out of the box. However, given the nature of FreeDOS, I currently don't see any viable way of accomplishing this. Mind you, I want it to happen, and I have already joined you in this battle by doing research, I just haven't figured out how. On a related note, I like your style of advocacy for the blind, especially your emphasis on individual preferences, freedom of choice, and avoidance of unnecessary categorization. Best, Felix Am Mi., 18. März 2020 um 08:57 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > > On 18/03/2020 02:37, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > Why cannot speech be built native to freedos the way it is, I > > understand, native to Linux distros, including the use of hardware? > > FreeDOS, like other flavors of DOS, is a 16-bit, real-mode operating > system. This means it runs within an extremely constrained environment: > typically with access to a maximum of 640 kilobytes of memory, one taks > at a time, and being able to address objects no bigger than 64 > kilobytes. It is technically unrealistic to expect performing any kind > of native voice synthesis in such configuration. The only realistic way > would be to output text through a hardware port, like the RS-232, and > let an external device do the sound generation. And that's exactly what > screen readers do already. But it means of course that one must have an > extra hardware synthesizer, which may or may not be an acceptable > investment, depending on the ultimate goal. For people like Felix, who > only want to play an old adventure game from time to time, this seems > overkill - hence my idea to use VirtualBox instead, to run FreeDOS > inside of it and connect an emulated software synthesizer. All this can > be done for free, without any extra hardware, given that one has the > patience and skills to set it all up. > > Now, going back to FreeDOS: the only improvement I can think of is to > include some sort of screen reader into the distribution. That is why I > was interested in the PROVOX option, since PROVOX appears to have a > license perfectly compatible with FreeDOS. Sadly, I was unable to make > it output any sound, so I wonder whether it works at all. JAWS, on the > other hand, works very well, but cannot be included into FreeDOS due to > an incompatible license. > > Mateusz > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user
I'd also like to add that when I speak of a battle, I am in no way referring to a battle against anyone here, or any FreeDOS developer. The rather military term was strictly in reference to the effort of overcoming or circumventing technical limitations. Best, Felix Am Mi., 18. März 2020 um 10:22 Uhr schrieb Felix G. : > > Hello everyone, > I'd like to report that I got FreeDOS to work, and speak to me, from a > virtual machine using a speech synthesizer emulator on the host, > thanks to Joseph's kind help in the form of valuable advice and a > great live image with ASAP. I was also able to get files into the VM > by converting a folder to an iso then mounting that as a virtual > CD-ROM. Still moderately convoluted, as I am the first to admit. > Karen, I agree with you, based on first principles, that every > operating system should be accessible out of the box. However, given > the nature of FreeDOS, I currently don't see any viable way of > accomplishing this. Mind you, I want it to happen, and I have already > joined you in this battle by doing research, I just haven't figured > out how. On a related note, I like your style of advocacy for the > blind, especially your emphasis on individual preferences, freedom of > choice, and avoidance of unnecessary categorization. > Best, > Felix > > Am Mi., 18. März 2020 um 08:57 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste : > > > > On 18/03/2020 02:37, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > > Why cannot speech be built native to freedos the way it is, I > > > understand, native to Linux distros, including the use of hardware? > > > > FreeDOS, like other flavors of DOS, is a 16-bit, real-mode operating > > system. This means it runs within an extremely constrained environment: > > typically with access to a maximum of 640 kilobytes of memory, one taks > > at a time, and being able to address objects no bigger than 64 > > kilobytes. It is technically unrealistic to expect performing any kind > > of native voice synthesis in such configuration. The only realistic way > > would be to output text through a hardware port, like the RS-232, and > > let an external device do the sound generation. And that's exactly what > > screen readers do already. But it means of course that one must have an > > extra hardware synthesizer, which may or may not be an acceptable > > investment, depending on the ultimate goal. For people like Felix, who > > only want to play an old adventure game from time to time, this seems > > overkill - hence my idea to use VirtualBox instead, to run FreeDOS > > inside of it and connect an emulated software synthesizer. All this can > > be done for free, without any extra hardware, given that one has the > > patience and skills to set it all up. > > > > Now, going back to FreeDOS: the only improvement I can think of is to > > include some sort of screen reader into the distribution. That is why I > > was interested in the PROVOX option, since PROVOX appears to have a > > license perfectly compatible with FreeDOS. Sadly, I was unable to make > > it output any sound, so I wonder whether it works at all. JAWS, on the > > other hand, works very well, but cannot be included into FreeDOS due to > > an incompatible license. > > > > Mateusz > > > > > > ___ > > Freedos-user mailing list > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user
Hello everyone! I am blown away, in the most positive sense of the word, by the fruitful discussion my original post seems to have sparked, or rekindled. For this discussion to have its heated moments is only natural as emotions, passions and frustrations are involved. If there is one point of constructive criticism I would like to make, it is to draw attention to the fact that some remarks have ranked rather high on my personal confrontational scale. While this does not render these remarks false in any way, they might come across as intimidating or, depending on personal associations, eristic. I want to appeal to all of us, explicitly including myself, if we feel we need to correct someone, to always do so gently and charitably. Here's to the accessibility of FreeDOS, and to tomes full of knowledge rather than dictionaries of limitations. Best, Felix Am Fr., 20. März 2020 um 11:01 Uhr schrieb Eric Auer : > > > Hi Mateusz, hi speech experts, > > >> DJGPP is a complete 32-bit C/C++ development system for Intel > >> 80386 (and higher) PCs running DOS. > > > I am saying that DOS is a 16-bit, real-time operating system. You say > > that DJGPP is more powerful. Yes, but DJGPP is not DOS. Then of course, > > one could imagine a 32-bit DOS-like system with 386 memory management, > > protected mode etc but it simply would not be called DOS. > > Actually the FD32 project is or was about running the DOS kernel > in protected mode, but the performance gains were small. I have > used DJGPP myself for tasks where I wanted many megabytes of RAM > directly available and of course you do notice that DOS will not > do anything in the background. So for example I buffered file I/O > during busy periods and only called DOS to write data files later > when it did not disturb me that I had to wait until DOS was done. > > So I would say if you only need real-time at moments without DOS > kernel (or BIOS) interaction and if you need much RAM directly > available without the hassles of EMS or XMS, then DJGPP is nice! > > About the feasibility of speech synthesis in DOS: If you use the > SoundBlaster AWE, you can load samples into the RAM of the sound > card and "play" speech like an instrument :-) Games usually take > either the protected mode or EMS (or XMS) route to access their > sample library. The PC speaker speech TSR contains a few dozen, > of course low quality, phoneme samples in only tens of kB RAM. > > So yes, it can be done, but which modern computer can still be > connected to a SoundBlaster? You would have to use HDA / AC97. > Which a few modern DOS media players are actually able to use. > > In short, I think it is feasible to do this. But remember that > games are very different from a screen reader TSR which has to > run in the background without disturbing normal DOS usage. This > would be pretty hard but still feasible. On the other hand, it > just is a lot easier to run DOS in dosemu or a VM and make use > of sound drivers, speech synthesizers and infrastructure running > on the host operating system with all fancy multitasking and 32 > or 64 bit memory and disk management features readily available. > > Many speech synth and screen reader software packages for DOS and > other systems have been named in this thread, so I would be glad > to hear more about features and requirements of those which have > a free license. Maybe somebody could publish a howto for using > them with FreeDOS, either on raw hardware or in a VM or dosemu? > > Thanks :-) Exiting to have such featurs for DOS! > > Regards, Eric > > PS: auersoft.eu is down at the moment due to an IP address > change, let me know if you want to help fixing that ;-) > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS and screen readers for blind users
Hi! > You're going to get different answers. Empirically, yes it works fine > in some cases. Theoretically, however, it is apparently impossible. Made my day. Story of my life. > I think, the most important question here is, if the BIOS of your computer > does handle USB in the way you want. Otherwise it will be a long ride, I > guess. ... It was at that moment that he knew he'd stick with a vm. ;-) > Hope that helps in some way, Everything helps at this stage of data collection. Best, Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] FreeDOS and screen readers for blind users
Hello dear community! It's been a long time since I contributed here. Some of you might remember me as a blind text adventure enthusiast trying to get very old DOS text games to run in a blind-accessible manner. Long story short, I made it. Long story long: Joseph Norton put together a FreeDOS bootable installation ISO with a DOS screen reader, becoming my hero in the process, and using this I was able to install FreeDOS on a virtual machine using a Windows-hosted speech synthesizer emulator listening on a virtual serial port. ASAP, from deep within DOS, sends its output to a serial port of my vm which is mapped to one end of a pair of COM0COM ports. On the other end I have a speech synthesizer emulator picking up that output and transforming it into actual speech using ESpeak. It's a wild construction but it works beautifully. If anybody else here would like to try it and is running into problems, please contact me and I'll try to help. Two follow-ups: 1. My installation is based on FreeDOS 1.3 RC3. Is there a stable version incorporating ASAP somewhere? 2. I'd love to go native with DOS, preferrably booting from a USB flash drive. Of course insodoing I lose my speech synthesizer emulator as this is Windows-hosted. This leads to the following sub-problems: a) Can FreeDOS boot from a flash drive? b) Can it subsequently have write access to that drive? c) Is there a software speech synth for FreeDOS for contemporary on-board sound hardware? Thanks in advance for any clues, and all the best, Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS and screen readers for blind users
Yay! I knew why I posted here. That's exactly the kind of data I'm collecting. I'm going to try and create a FreeDOS bootable flash drive with the help of Rufus or some such, and put a screen reader on it. Then I'm going to dig out my old Juno speech synthesizer, connect it to COM1 of my old pc, and see if I can get it to speak. From there, the sky's the limit. It'll probably fail in a dozen unexpected ways and if you folks are interested I can keep you updated. In any case it's nicely adventurous. Best, Felix Am Di., 11. Mai 2021 um 13:16 Uhr schrieb tom ehlert : > > > > Two follow-ups: > > 1. My installation is based on FreeDOS 1.3 RC3. Is there a stable > > version incorporating ASAP somewhere? > as ASAP seems to have commercial license: no. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screen_readers > > > > 2. I'd love to go native with DOS, preferrably booting from a USB > > flash drive. > good luck with that. > > > Of course insodoing I lose my speech synthesizer emulator > > as this is Windows-hosted. This leads to the following sub-problems: > > > a) Can FreeDOS boot from a flash drive? > yes. every BIOS for the last 15 years can. > however, good luck if you have to tweak some BIOS options should this > be needed. > > in some cases the BIOS does not allow to boot from USB automatically > (to prevent booting from (intentionally?) forgotten USB sticks), and > you have to press some key first, then select the USB disk from a > menu. good luck with that either. > > > b) Can it subsequently have write access to that drive? > most likely, yes. > > > c) Is there a software speech synth for FreeDOS for contemporary > > on-board sound hardware? > almost definitively no. there is exactly zero support for contemporary > anything in anyDOS (that is not supported by the BIOS itself), > > > > Thanks in advance for any clues, and all the best, > > > Tom > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS and screen readers for blind users
Hi Eric, Am Di., 11. Mai 2021 um 14:08 Uhr schrieb Eric Auer : > given that you have a hardware serial port speech synthesizer, > there is a lot more optimism now! By the way, why do you want > to boot from USB? While many PC can boot from USB, the access > speed can be quite low and a few BIOS fail to support writes. The primary reason is that I want to keep Windows on my hard drive and I don't feel confident about using a boot manager. > I assume you also have the right DOS software to fetch the > on-screen text and send it to the serial port, but I guess > that is what your ASAP app does. Yes, that's exactly what it's for. It's the Automatic Screen Access Program, a sophisticated tsr for blind users that actually lets me navigate graphics memory like a text file, and that also intercepts console output in many cases. It's a masterpiece of assembly language programming. Best, Felix ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS music creation software?
Hello! If the pc speaker is alright with you, try Piano Man by Neil J. Rubenking. Best, Felix Am Do., 1. Sept. 2022 um 08:19 Uhr schrieb Mart Zirnask : > > Not sure about the keyboard part, but there was also Sound Club, an > early 90s sound editor by Skype founders Jaan Tallinn and Ahti Heinla: > http://bluemoon.ee/history/scdos/index.html > > Some music made with Sound Club: > http://digitiger.byethost7.com/sclub.htm?i=1 > > Some more details -- apparently it did have something called "virtual > keyboard": > https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/3599781 > > Obviously, I'm pointing this out mostly because of the authors (I'm > Estonian, and so are they). It is really cool that they still keep > their old homepage available; apparently it is from the pre-Skype > days: > http://bluemoon.ee/history/index.html > > Mart > > On 01/09/2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > thanks for all those prospects. > > Perhaps I should not have used the gaming concept as a framer, figuring > > there were no musicians here. > > My goal is to use my computer keyboard as a music one in pure DOS. > > I have found a copy of cakewalk for DOS, but still appreciate your > > options too. > > Karen > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, Rugxulo wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 11:45 AM Karen Lewellen > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I use dos, google has removed access to YouTube for low graphics > >>> browsers. > >>> If you have an answer, care to share? > >> > >> The YouTube link just shows "Sound Blaster Pro Intelligent Organ" > >> (Creative Technology, 1991). > >> > >> What about a so-called "tracker"? > >> > >> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker > >> > >> Here's a few links that I found (off the top of my head): > >> > >> * https://hornet.org/music/programs/trackers/scrmt321.zip > >> * https://hornet.org/music/contests/mc6/files/it214p3.zip > >> * https://github.com/herrnst/impulsetracker > >> * https://github.com/MobyGamer/MONOTONE/releases/tag/0.3.9 > >> > >> > >>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022, Björn Morell wrote: > >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAt1rWF-kqE > > Den 2022-08-30 kl. 12:02, skrev Karen Lewellen: > > with all of the vintage gaming hinted at here, was wondering if > > anyone > > knows of a simple pure DOS program that in theory allows one to treat > > their computer keyboard like a music one? > > Need not tap dance as it were, just allow for some basic work. > > Ideas? > > Karen > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Freedos-user mailing list > >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > >> > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
