Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Dear Christoph: which hardware would you recommend for running FreeDOS? I had an absolute requirement of a serial port. That was for communicating with a heart-rate monitor's interface-box. So I used an old 32 bit tower-PC that had a serial port. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On 27 Apr 2021 at 18:24, Liam Proven wrote: > A BIOS is one type of firmware. UEFI is a different type of firmware. > point cordially taken. I'll pay attention to be less casual about my vocabulary at this mailing list :-) I do have a bit of an etymological issue with the thing being called a "firmware" though. In the sense, that "firmware" originally used to be something running on an MCU in some peripheral device, that you did not run your own software on. Firmware used to be for black boxes. Calling a BIOS a "firmware" is marketing newspeak to me :-) BIOS/UEFI are mostly some services stored in an EEPROM, including a primitive loader to get your OS bootstrapped. It all runs on my x86 PC computer's main CPU, and is just about good enough to get my modern OS airborne - once the OS is airborne, the BIOS/UEFI services have a marginal role. [/subjective rant] (And then there's the AMT BMC, good for god knows what. And yes that does have a firmware worth that name, stored in the same EEPROM chip as the system BIOS/UEFI.) Frank ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Hello Felix, What this reads is if it has UEFI, it has no basic input/output system. That makes no sense. Without *a* basic input/output system, by whatever Well, in practice, when we talk about "BIOS" compatibility, we are really referring to compatibility with "the" BIOS --- as in, the original IBM PC's ROM BIOS, and the programming interface that it presents. FreeDOS, and many other MS-DOS-compatible operating systems, absolutely need to run on something that is compatible with "the" BIOS. (At least for now.) Such a compatible BIOS not only needs to be able to find a keyboard --- it must also allow (e.g.) FreeDOS and MS-DOS programs to read keystrokes or send commands to the keyboard in a similar way as they might on an original IBM PC. This is the part that will be missing on an UEFI-only system. Thank you! -- https://gitlab.com/tkchia :: https://github.com/tkchia ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:24:13 +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > If I called Linux "a kind of DOS" and tried to discuss the difference > between MS-DOS, FreeDOS and Torvalds DOS we would all get very > confused and we could not effectively communicate. Well, this is not really true in tech, though. It works like that in other areas, notably politics (everybody is a "democrat" but the definition varies). I used Linux for a while without any windowing system. IIRC it took some years before that became at all useful. In some ways (for the sake of the argument...) that made DOS and Linux more similar than either were to Windows. Please try to make a truthful statement about Torvald's DOS that is likely to be misunderstood. /Tomas ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Liam Proven composed on 2021-04-27 18:24 (UTC+0200): > A BIOS is one type of firmware. UEFI is a different type of firmware. > There are others, but not in PCs, usually. > If a computer has UEFI, it doesn't have a BIOS. If it has a BIOS, it > doesn't have UEFI. > CSM is a UEFI feature. If a machine's firmware has CSM, it must be > UEFI. If it is UEFI, it is not a BIOS. That means the computer does > not have a BIOS: it has UEFI instead. > If it has UEFI then it doesn't have a BIOS. What this reads is if it has UEFI, it has no basic input/output system. That makes no sense. Without *a* basic input/output system, by whatever name, non-volatile storage's controller doesn't get found, so program code doesn't get found and loaded, keyboard can't redirect into setup,or be logically connected, etc. UEFI provides basic input/output services, so it is a BIOS, just a rather evolved one with a changed name, little different than when Lucky Goldstar changed its name to LG. > Some UEFI can emulate a BIOS. Some can't. Which ones can't find a keyboard, mouse, storage controller or other common I/O device? What am I missing? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Hi Christoph, > From what I've gathered getting FreeDOS running on "modern" hardware is > not trivial (if certain features are required/wished for) and the > general experience running it in a virtual environment might be much > better. I'll probably first go this (virtual) route and later... That depends a lot on the specific feature. I would say running DOS on for example 2019 bare metal hardware really is trivial, but you may not get any sound from your 1999 DOS game for Sound Blaster 16. Mouse, keyboard and VGA support will probably work just fine and the game may support internal speaker sound output as fallback. As your goal is to write new games, I am looking forward to hear from others about their experiences with Allegro (and maybe SDL) for games and other apps which can run on DOS (and maybe all other platforms). Regards, Eric PS: About the UEFI discussion, it does not matter for DOS or apps whether you have a BIOS or just a CSM on your UEFI. Both work LIKE a BIOS for DOS and the apps and that is what matters. It might be possible to load a third party CSM on UEFI-only systems, maybe by boot loader, but I am not aware of any proven combination for that. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 16:43, Frantisek Rysanek wrote: > > ITX motherboards by Gigabyte, with BayTrail and Apollo Lake ATOM, do > have the "legacy BIOS boot" (and CSM support) available in the BIOS. A PC BIOS is a type of program stored in a repogrammable nonvolatile memory chip on a PC's motherboard. Because it's a program, but ships in a chip, it's somewhere between software (just bits and bytes, no physical existence) and hardware (solid material object that you can kick.) So it is called "firmware", because it's between "soft" and "hard", not quite one or the other. A BIOS is one type of firmware. UEFI is a different type of firmware. There are others, but not in PCs, usually. If a computer has UEFI, it doesn't have a BIOS. If it has a BIOS, it doesn't have UEFI. CSM is a UEFI feature. If a machine's firmware has CSM, it must be UEFI. If it is UEFI, it is not a BIOS. That means the computer does not have a BIOS: it has UEFI instead. > You can select whether to have it or not, there are several items in > the BIOS Setup related to that. If it has UEFI then it doesn't have a BIOS. It is impossible to talk about the differences between BIOS and UEFI if the terms are used interchangeably. If I called Linux "a kind of DOS" and tried to discuss the difference between MS-DOS, FreeDOS and Torvalds DOS we would all get very confused and we could not effectively communicate. So it's important to be clear and get it right. Really important. I am not being picky about this for fun; it really matters. Some UEFI can emulate a BIOS. Some can't. > ITX motherboards by AsRock, with Gemini Lake ATOM: UEFI only. > Not in the least apologetic about it :-) > The motherboard user's guide, typically available in PDF for download > off the vendor's website, typically has a couple screenshots of the > BIOS SETUP. If there's not a word about a CSM or legacy boot, beware. > > There were some earlier examples of motherboards where the CSM > initially wasn't available, and got added in a later version of the > BIOS. But, I wouldn't rely on this anymore - for many vendors it's > UEFI-only from now on. They are probably all UEFI-only, but some have UEFI with BIOS emulation -- that is, CSM -- and some have UEFI without. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Hi everybody, thank you for the fast reply. From what I've gathered getting FreeDOS running on "modern" hardware is not trivial (if certain features are required/wished for) and the general experience running it in a virtual environment might be much better. I'll probalby first go this (virtual) route and later try it on bare metal. Best regards. Christoph OpenPGP_0xA362479F3F0ADC06.asc Description: OpenPGP public key OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On 27/04/2021 18:00, Michał Dec wrote: Hey I was wondering if it would make sense to step up FreeDOS to actually you know, be bootable under UEFI ;) The CPUs still got support for real mode so we should be fine. Being able to boot is only the tip of the iceberg here. Without a working BIOS (ie. working INT 13h, INT 10h etc interfaces) neither DOS nor most DOS application will be able to function. A functional solution would be to provide something that emulates a BIOS (video, storage, memory areas...) over UEFI. But at this point one could just as well run FreeDOS into an emulator. Mateusz ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Hey I was wondering if it would make sense to step up FreeDOS to actually you know, be bootable under UEFI ;) The CPUs still got support for real mode so we should be fine. W dniu 27.04.2021 o 16:41, Frantisek Rysanek pisze: On 27 Apr 2021 at 16:01, Eric Auer wrote: I agree that it will be tricky to ask vendors which styles their machine supports, but actually my impression is that support for booting DOS is not that exotic yet. In my recent experience, and I don't sell office-grade PC hardware so that experience is limited: ITX motherboards by Gigabyte, with BayTrail and Apollo Lake ATOM, do have the "legacy BIOS boot" (and CSM support) available in the BIOS. You can select whether to have it or not, there are several items in the BIOS Setup related to that. ITX motherboards by AsRock, with Gemini Lake ATOM: UEFI only. Not in the least apologetic about it :-) The motherboard user's guide, typically available in PDF for download off the vendor's website, typically has a couple screenshots of the BIOS SETUP. If there's not a word about a CSM or legacy boot, beware. There were some earlier examples of motherboards where the CSM initially wasn't available, and got added in a later version of the BIOS. But, I wouldn't rely on this anymore - for many vendors it's UEFI-only from now on. Where I work, our key supplier is Advantech = industrial-grade PC hardware. The legacy boot method is typically still supported in their hardware, ispecially in their "inhouse products", e.g. ATX / microATX / mini-ITX motherboards. But, this isn't something you'd want buy for a home PC, at the price. Otherwise it's rock solid PC hardware, and the BIOS feels very conservative / vanilla. To be honest, if I wanted to get a modern PC toy box with SoundBlaster compatibility, I'd probably use some recent ATOM, even if UEFI-only, install an appropriate version of Linux and run DOS under QEMU on top of that. And I'd be free to choose the emulated SoundBlaster if I wanted to. As for what Linux: whatever you are familiar with. And, QEMU seems to get better with every version. In the recent years, I'm with Debian, so I'd probably choose some recent fast-paced Ubuntu, to get a fresh QEMU out of the box, with frequent updates if desired. Whenever I deal with something in DOS, the native DOS-based editors and IDE's nowadays feel so tiny, in the 80x25 terminal (even 80x43). I prefer to edit text files "out of band" in some Windows or Linux environment and maybe just run the compiler for that in DOS, if cross-development on the modern machine is not practical for some reason. Frank ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On 27 Apr 2021 at 16:01, Eric Auer wrote: > I agree that it will be tricky to ask vendors which styles > their machine supports, but actually my impression is that > support for booting DOS is not that exotic yet. In my recent experience, and I don't sell office-grade PC hardware so that experience is limited: ITX motherboards by Gigabyte, with BayTrail and Apollo Lake ATOM, do have the "legacy BIOS boot" (and CSM support) available in the BIOS. You can select whether to have it or not, there are several items in the BIOS Setup related to that. ITX motherboards by AsRock, with Gemini Lake ATOM: UEFI only. Not in the least apologetic about it :-) The motherboard user's guide, typically available in PDF for download off the vendor's website, typically has a couple screenshots of the BIOS SETUP. If there's not a word about a CSM or legacy boot, beware. There were some earlier examples of motherboards where the CSM initially wasn't available, and got added in a later version of the BIOS. But, I wouldn't rely on this anymore - for many vendors it's UEFI-only from now on. Where I work, our key supplier is Advantech = industrial-grade PC hardware. The legacy boot method is typically still supported in their hardware, ispecially in their "inhouse products", e.g. ATX / microATX / mini-ITX motherboards. But, this isn't something you'd want buy for a home PC, at the price. Otherwise it's rock solid PC hardware, and the BIOS feels very conservative / vanilla. To be honest, if I wanted to get a modern PC toy box with SoundBlaster compatibility, I'd probably use some recent ATOM, even if UEFI-only, install an appropriate version of Linux and run DOS under QEMU on top of that. And I'd be free to choose the emulated SoundBlaster if I wanted to. As for what Linux: whatever you are familiar with. And, QEMU seems to get better with every version. In the recent years, I'm with Debian, so I'd probably choose some recent fast-paced Ubuntu, to get a fresh QEMU out of the box, with frequent updates if desired. Whenever I deal with something in DOS, the native DOS-based editors and IDE's nowadays feel so tiny, in the 80x25 terminal (even 80x43). I prefer to edit text files "out of band" in some Windows or Linux environment and maybe just run the compiler for that in DOS, if cross-development on the modern machine is not practical for some reason. Frank ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:55, Mateusz Viste wrote: > > On 27/04/2021 15:43, Liam Proven wrote: > > UEFI vs BIOS is either-or. A single machine can't have both, and I do > > not know of any where it is a choice. It is a design decision. > > On my Thinkpads the BIOS allows to choose the boot method - either UEFI > or "legacy". The latter allows to boot DOS, the former doesn't. I own 5 Thinkpads. I know. This does not mean you are choosing between 2 firmware chips, a BIOS one and a UEFI one. It has 1 type of firmware, only, and this has CSM: i.e. it can emulate a BIOS. The difference is in the boot media. It can boot legacy media (via a bootsector in the MBR) and it can boot UEFI media (by loading a stub in a FAT32-format EFI System Partition, the ESP). Most firmware has this and can do both. Some have a setting to let you choose which it tries first. The Thinkpad firmware lets you make the choice every boot. This kind of thing is *why* I buy Thinkpads. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
Hi Liam, > CSM is short for Compatibility Support Module. It is a module that > enables UEFI firmware to also support "legacy" booting, i.e. BIOS > compatibility. Windows 7 required this. > > UEFI vs BIOS is either-or. A single machine can't have both There are machines where you can select whether you want to boot an UEFI capable operating system or not. When you say you want to boot a non-UEFI operating system like DOS, the system might either activate a CSM or switch to BIOS based booting - for me as user, the difference would be hard to tell. But as said, machines exist which support both modern UEFI style booting and DOS compatible booting in some way. I agree that it will be tricky to ask vendors which styles their machine supports, but actually my impression is that support for booting DOS is not that exotic yet. At least in computers ten years ago - which already had PCIe, space for many gigabytes of RAM, multiple cores etc. - booting DOS was no problem at all :-) Wikipedia says UEFI became more popular since 2010 and some vendors have stopped to include CSM since 2020. That means *most computers made before 2020 had CSM* and will happily boot FreeDOS from most MBR-partitioned drives. An exception from the 2020 statement: In 2006, Apple sold EFI- only computers, but added a Bootcamp CSM the following year. Wikipedia writes 230 mainboards are supported by Coreboot, so that and OpenBIOS might be useful in some special cases. Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On 27/04/2021 15:43, Liam Proven wrote: UEFI vs BIOS is either-or. A single machine can't have both, and I do not know of any where it is a choice. It is a design decision. On my Thinkpads the BIOS allows to choose the boot method - either UEFI or "legacy". The latter allows to boot DOS, the former doesn't. Mateusz ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr_Xw3sTgRk W dniu 27.04.2021 o 15:43, Liam Proven pisze: Therefore a salesperson will almost certainly just lie and say "yes" to get the sale. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 14:58, Eric Auer wrote: > Computers which support ONLY UEFI > operating systems will not work (unless you load a CSM, but there > is none I could recommend for DOS). CSM is short for Compatibility Support Module. It is a module that enables UEFI firmware to also support "legacy" booting, i.e. BIOS compatibility. Windows 7 required this. AFAIK this is a vendor choice, normally, not an end-user one. I do not think that an end-user, the owner, can add CSM to an existing machine whose firmware lacks it. > But most computers still do > support BIOS, I think. UEFI vs BIOS is either-or. A single machine can't have both, and I do not know of any where it is a choice. It is a design decision. I suspect that 99% of PC vendors will have no idea what "does your firmware support CSM" would mean. Therefore a salesperson will almost certainly just lie and say "yes" to get the sale. The real question is: "can the machine boot DOS?" Even so, I think very few would know. Try it and see is the best answer. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] hardware recommendations
> which hardware would you recommend for running FreeDOS? > Are there any "modern" main boards that provide the neccessary BIOS > compatibility for running FreeDOS? > Is there a hardware compatibility list available? Regarding your hardware question: Obviously, you need a computer which still has a BIOS at all. Computers which support ONLY UEFI operating systems will not work (unless you load a CSM, but there is none I could recommend for DOS). But most computers still do support BIOS, I think. You also want a computer which has a VGA BIOS, preferrably with VESA and preferrably with VGA compatible hardware. This also is the case for many graphics cards, but if you want to be on the safe side, check the web whether people are complaining about the graphics chip or graphics card you want to use. For example 8x14 fonts are often missing (TSR exist to supply them) and some modern chips are less flexible regarding "geometry" of your graphics memory. No problem, as long as your game is :-) As DOS itself does not rely on direct hardware access, you should be able to use ALL mainboards which can still boot OS with BIOS. Note that only 1 CPU core and at most 2-4 GB RAM will be active in DOS and games unless you load experimental drivers and libraries. You will not find modern sound hardware with actual soundblaster compatibility. So prepare for having to find or write drivers for HDA (or AC97) class sound chips. MPXPLAY shows that it can be done :-) Alternatively, just use the internal speaker/beeper. I guess printer ports and serial ports are not a topic for you in games. Analog joysticks were easy, but USB versions or game pads will be hard (try the Bret Johnson drivers?) For networking, some LAN chips are supported even when only a few years old, but you will have to check before you buy. WLAN is NOT supported in DOS. Your USB mouse or touchpad will be supported as simulated PS/2 device if you have a well-behaved BIOS helping you with it. Your USB keyboard will be supported by the BIOS. Same for all built-in disks (harddisks, SSD, even eMMC or M2) although the BIOS driver will not achieve the best possible speeds. Note that GPT partitioning is not yet supported by the DOS kernel: You will have to partition your disk MBR style which limits you to using the first two terabytes ;-) I recommend to keep FAT32 partition sizes limited (you can even use FAT16) as I expect DOS to be sluggish when using very large partitions. I am not aware of any DOS drivers for webcams and similar. You can check the ongoing thread about whether and how to print in DOS with modern hardware. USB storage is probably supported by the BIOS only when you boot from it, but that can be enough for getting files copied. Actual USB drivers for DOS exist, such as the Bret Johnson or Georg Potthast ones or various classic and vendor provided alternatives, but prepare to have to try some variants and tune configurations. This topic is too complex to describe all ins and outs here. Some USB controllers might not be supported at all, apart from by the BIOS, which only lets you use keyboards, mice and sometimes storage (USB sticks). No Bluetooth support is available for DOS as far as I remember. Optical CD/DVD/BD drives should be supported in ATAPI or SATA, but I would not rely on that to work on every modern computer. Also, support for UDF is at best experimental, so prepare to only be able to read ISO9660 formatted CD or DVD. Writing or burning of CD/DVD/BD has been done by some DOS fans, but that has been years ago. Nobody seems to care about that any more? Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
