On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 11:43:22AM -0500, Ron DuFresne wrote:
Vincent, I think you lost track in your reply, he was not talking about
braondband cable access to the internet, he was talking about cable TV
services being stolen in this case, and the teft of the 'service'.
...
On Mon, 11 Oct
Giselbert Hinkelmann wrote:
Am 12.10.2004 um 01:33 schrieb Jesse Valentin:
My point is that just because something isnt recognized as incorrect
by a
legal entity this doesnt necessarily indicate that the conclusion
is sound
Which means that future generations may see not giving free/cheap
OK Barry,
I understand the point you're trying to make but regardless of the technical definition you are still using something that you should be paying for - correct? Fraud, stealing, cookie baking, whatever you want to call it - isnt it a breach of security and isnt it still wrong?
These are
Jesse Valentin wrote:
My point is that just because something isnt recognized as incorrect
by a legal entity this doesnt necessarily indicate that the
conclusion is sound
I agree with your point here, but you missed one of the nuances of my
argument. The definition of theft isn't just a legal
Hi Vincent,
The theft is theft of services, not the TV show.
cheers, bob
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Vincent Archer wrote:
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 11:43:22AM -0500, Ron DuFresne wrote:
Vincent, I think you lost track in your reply, he was not talking about
braondband cable
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 10:53:58AM -0400, Stormwalker wrote:
Hi Vincent,
The theft is theft of services, not the TV show.
Actually, as I said somewhat in passing in my original message, the
cable companies can sue you for theft of signal, not theft of service
(you can't steal a service) or
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 11:41:49AM -0700, Jesse Valentin wrote:
How about using a digital de-scrambler for cable service? You?re getting something
you?re not paying for? isn?t that stealing? True, its not a vital service, but isn?t
this still plain ?ol stealing?
It's not stealing. The cable
Mary, please don't mangle my comments like that...I did not say we are
wired to be bad. I said nothing like that at all. Point in fact, I said:
There is no moral breakdown, as humankind is not fundamentally moral.
Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or
Vincent, I think you lost track in your reply, he was not talking about
braondband cable access to the internet, he was talking about cable TV
services being stolen in this case, and the teft of the 'service'.
Thanks,
Ron DuFresne
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Vincent Archer wrote:
On Fri, Oct 08,
You are correct. I did not read your post carefully enough and responded to
my (mis) interpretation of your intent rather than the words themselves. My
apologies.
-- Mary
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mary Landesman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL
Great...another flame war!
Well, at least it helps people to update their blackhole files based on
who's got the hacker mindset and who's staunchly in the Mister MacKey
hacking is bad camp.
I guess the pundits are right - the country, hell the world, really is
more polarized than ever.
ATH0
Hey Vince,
With all due respect, while I find your argument interesting I think its a case of mental gymnastics.
You mention that descrambling is copyright violation. According to the Merriam Webster dictionary the term Copyright is defined as:
the EXCLUSIVE legal right to reproduce,
Hey there Bart,
Sorry Im getting back to this so late.
Thanks for the post. You mentioned a few things however that were not accurate with regard to my original note.
You wrote: Please don't ever depend on the nature of man changing in order to have safety and security.
Please understand, I
Hey Barry,
Thanks for the info. (You're right it is odd.. :-)
The "sophisticated" legal system never ceases to amuse me.You made me laughwith your statement - "they're fraudulantly using something they know they should be paying for".
See in my eyes, this is stealing... plain and simple
Is it just me , or are these converstations a waste of time
for this mailing list, almost makes you want to unsubscribe.
Arent these type of convos better for irc where you can all
have a group hug?? No this isnt a flame, im just wondering wtf has happened to
the list is all, it started out
Am 12.10.2004 um 01:33 schrieb Jesse Valentin:
My point is that just because something isnt recognized as incorrect
by a
legal entity this doesnt necessarily indicate that the conclusion
is sound
Which means that future generations may see not giving free/cheap access
of all published
Again, there's the problem with perception.
I don't interpret Jan's post as whining about the insecurity of the Internet
per se. To me, it appears he is simply noting, quite correctly IMO, that
there is an idiotic notion prevailing that somehow, because the Internet
*is* insecure, that it gives
Le ven 08/10/2004 à 20:09, Harry Hoffman a écrit :
Umm, should the Paladin of Security have weak locks? ;-)
His Holy Cyber-Blade of Justice should prevent them all through its 100
feet radius area of evil protection...
--
http://www.netexit.com/~sid/
PGP KeyID: 157E98EE FingerPrint:
, 2004-10-08 23:52, morning_wood :
phood 4 th0ugh7,
last i heard being on the internet was voluntary...
( whether you are a person or business enity
and many successfull business have no internet presence )
if i am correct... being on the the internet is not manditory to
conduct life
I just don't understand people who think by using some cheap trick they
get into my files or website and hack them, that they have no personal responsibility.
It's insane to think and criminal that anything you can get into is fair game.
Just because I have a cheap lock you can break does not
Who pissed in your Wheaties?
-KF
Clairmont, Jan M wrote:
I just don't understand people who think by using some cheap trick they
get into my files or website and hack them, that they have no personal responsibility.
It's insane to think and criminal that anything you can get into is fair game.
This is the internet.
This isn't your home, your car, your wallet.
This is the internet.
Offline analogies do not work. They also make my brain hurt, please do
not use them.
Whilst breaking a weak lock is criminal on the internet and in real
life, it's also a hell of a lot easier to do on the
The fact that something is illegal discourages
no-one, the fact that
they may get caught and punushed discourages most.
If you drive your Lambhorgini to a city, pull off the
side of the road, leave the keys in it and doors open,
and someone steals it...don't be surprised.
The difference
I beg to differ. This is not public domain. This is something we all
pay for and have a vested interest in.
The days of the 'wild west' are over. There is a new sheriff in town.
Because of stupid script kiddies and black hat assholes, things are
going to change whether you like it or not -
Micheal,
I beg to differ. This is not public domain. This
is something we all
pay for and have a vested interest in.
I agree that we do pay for our access.
The days of the 'wild west' are over. There is a
new sheriff in town.
How so? Who or where is this sheriff? Are you
referring
No
matter how many laws are passed or how many policies
are written, they are pretty much useless as they
are not capable of changing people.
Laws don't change people's behaviour...the enforcement
of the laws does.
In the days of NIPC, the Attorney General mandated a
threshold of $5k
Umm, should the Paladin of Security have weak locks? ;-)
Compute Fair, Compute Fun, Compute secure
Jan Clairmont Paladin of Security, Take no Prisoners!
Unix Security Support/Consultant
___
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter:
Laws don't change people's behaviour...the enforcement
of the laws does.
I'm going to be optimistic (it being Friday) and say that there are
other factors worth mentioning that act to change established behaviour.
Education is a big one--and I'm not just talking about the education
of the
I have very weak locks, because I live on the range in the wild, but have a big
pit for them to fall in after they get there, landmines and all. You may get in
but there is no guarantee you'll ever get out.;-
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
This is an interesting perspective Harlan, but I cant say that I agree with you. The point I was trying to make was that there exists a need to change the inclinations of the mind and of the heart in order to make a difference. Behavior is just a bi product of this type of change. You can enforce
Surely the threat of Take no Prisoners! is enough to scare anyone off, Harry.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:09:26 -0400, Harry Hoffman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Umm, should the Paladin of Security have weak locks? ;-)
Compute Fair, Compute Fun, Compute secure
Jan Clairmont Paladin of
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Andrew Smith wrote:
This is the internet.
This isn't your home, your car, your wallet.
This is the internet.
Offline analogies do not work. They also make my brain hurt, please do
not use them.
as if I care about yer weak brain and the pain it causes you,...
Whilst
Jesse, et al...
...expect to see an ongoing barrage on injustices...
This has been ongoing since Cain slew Abel...or if you like, since Og
clubbed Ooog outside his cave and dragged his cavewoman off by her hair.
Please don't ever depend on the nature of man changing in order to have
safety
I want to echo Andrew Smith's concern. THIS GUY IS FROM CITIGROUP!!!
I'm glad that Citigroup is building their security around what's
lawfull and what's unlawfull on the INTERNET!!!
It's the Internet dude... Next time you decide to rant like this on
the list and sign your name as a UNIX
phood 4 th0ugh7,
last i heard being on the internet was voluntary...
( whether you are a person or business enity
and many successfull business have no internet presence )
if i am correct... being on the the internet is not manditory to
conduct life sustaining activities...
( eat, shit, sleep [
OK. You're wrong.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of morning_wood
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 3:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases,
personal correspondence or
Am i the only one concerned at the childish behavious on these mailing lists?
I've not been reading for so long, but in my second or third email to
these lists i've been told that someone 'doesn't care' about me and my
'weak brain'.
And now this 'OK. You're wrong.' ?
Is this neccesary?
I beleive
You should get used to it. It's Full-Disclosure and it's unmoderated.
Somebody starts a stupid childish rant like this guy from Citigroup
(which by the way is making me think twice on doing business with
them). I would advise all people who decide to tell somebody that
they have a weak brain to
I have to laugh, since I had the same thought as you! Except I interpreted
the childish behavior as coming from the side you seem to be defending. :-)
Perception is everything.
IMO, arguing that our presence on the Internet is voluntary and that it
somehow excuses bad behavior is simply
Ok, this will be my last post on this subject. It's getting borring,
and I have work to do. My point is that, as in real life, we need
security on the Internet because of the way people choose to behave.
I, you and most others choose to behive in a socially excepted
manner, which is to say we
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