Re: [Futurework] responses / Citizen's Income

2008-01-17 Thread Christoph Reuss
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Where does the money come from? From taxes on people who have more of
 it than they need. Like you, probably.

 But what is the point of taxing people only to give  much of the
 money back?  Income tax should be abolished and  most government
 functions  including CI  funded by

 1) a wealth tax

 b) corporation tax

(I thought you were talking about Citizen's Income, not Tax Reform...)

Okay, let's assume that Canada introduces your system.  Then the
wealthy individuals and the corporations will simply move out of
Canada.  Then there won't be much left to redistribute...  just
millions of net recipients of CI...  funded from which source?

And how will you prevent the moved-out rich and corporations from
sucking Canada dry from abroad?  Total protectionism?

Your spaceship engine is a perpetuum mobile that is losing energy.


 As for explaining how  our  system will work in the long run, first
 explain how you think the present system is going to work in the long
 run.

It won't.  But it should be replaced by one that will.

Chris





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Re: [Futurework] responses / Citizen's Income

2008-01-16 Thread Christoph Reuss
The CI proponents remind me of a group that keeps slobbering over their
new spaceship, how beautiful it is and how fast it will take humans to
new worlds, but they forget to talk about the engine of their spaceship
-- in fact, they don't have an engine that works.  They think a perpetuum
mobile will do it.  But they don't want to talk about engines -- they talk
about their beautiful spaceship hull design, the comfy chairs, the tasty
board cuisine and the great space adventures they plan.

In other words: How about a brief concise outline of where the money will
come from, and how the system will be kept sustainable in the long term.
(Economically and environmentally -- because the last thing the climate
needs is billions of motorists having too much money for gasoline...)

Chris




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[Futurework] responses

2008-01-15 Thread tar

Following up on my  “why we call it Citizen’s Income” piece  and   
reactions to it and other  ideas  people have put across; I don’t  
have any specific problem with anything anyone is saying.  But  I do  
not think much is going to come of these discussions.

It is as I said;  the people interested in a guaranteed income do not  
know enough yet.  Therefore, a  nation wide  organisation to promote  
a Citizen’s Income  is not going to happen just yet.  There is a lot  
of educating which has to be done, as well as some researching as to  
how best to promote  to the public a new type of society.

And, sorry folks,  talking about a guaranteed income or basic income  
in isolation from everything else is not going to go anywhere. I  
think I have had more experience than most people  on this list at   
talking up the concept with   various  kinds of people. I also know a  
little about framing. I would like to know a lot more.

Any kind of guaranteed income is a direct contradiction to the frame  
or paradigm  most North Americans have had rammed into their heads  
from a very early age. There simply are no answers to the objections   
to be raised about a  BI-GAI  within that frame.  You have to break  
the frame.

For example, you cannot argue  for a demogrant  from fairness.  What  
you get back is that  a bigai will be very unfair to  the people who  
will have to work harder to  support the people who  are ‘not pulling  
their weight’.  Some people with a philosophic bent are calling this  
the ‘lazy versus crazy’ or ‘free rider’ problem.  It is unanswerable  
on its own terms.

The  answer to all this is; “Nobody has any ‘weight’ to pull. There  
is  enough of every necessity for everybody. People who are working  
harder are doing so because they want to or believe they have to.   
There is no sense at all to keeping everybody working  40-60 hour   
weeks when  all material needs can be satisfied  with less than a  
twenty hour work week.

In the ‘lazy versus crazy’ parable, crazy is crazy not because she is  
working twice as hard to carry lazy, but because she  is wasting
the limited resources on their little desert island.

But the real world is not  one of these little castaway islands   
beloved by economics debaters.  We left the  neolithic age behind  
long ago.  We live in a sophisticated technological society with   
finished goods several stages removed from the resources  extracted  
in making them.  The technological machine has made it possible for  
us to produce everything we need with little effort  but we cannot  
make the mental adjustment to a world of leisure and abundance.  We  
still act like neolithic people.

We have  about fifty years to make  the mental changeover.  Then  we  
go back into a dark age for who knows how long.  The  climate change  
and  environmental contamination all around us is not  going to be  
solved by some modifications to  the existing economic structure.   
Talking about sustainable development is nonsense,  there is nothing  
which can be ‘developed’ indefinitely.

The breakdown of the natural environment is happening because we  are  
trying to take out of it more than it can give. The solution is to  
take less.  That means an end to the present economic system which  
depends on constant growth and the reification of money.  Reification  
is the fallacy of making a thing out of an abstract idea. Money is an  
abstract idea.

We are going to  organise a steady state economy, in which production  
is limited to what we can reasonably get from  the natural world  
given our technological level. This is going to happen one way or  
another. We are going back to the middle ages or we are going to  
develop a  kind of very big co-operative.

Now, what are you nattering at me about communism for? Who told you  
what communism is? Who told you what anarchism means? Who told you  
what libertarianism means? Who told you what democracy is?

The government of China still calls itself communist.  It is a  
totalitarian state running a system of state capitalism and beating  
the hell out of the  private  capitalists on this continent.  It has  
as much to do with communism as  the United States has to do with  
free markets or the vatican has to do with christianity; nothing.

Any time communism, or cooperativism because it means the same thing  
in effect, has had a chance to work, it has worked very well. So well  
in fact, that extreme efforts are  always made to stop it; for  
example, in the old Soviet Union under Stalin.

Yes, capitalism has worked very well for awhile, or corporatism, a  
much better word for it;  the control of society by and for large  
interests.  Then it destroys the  base on which it depends, because  
it requires constant growth in a finite world.  However the world is  
going to be run in the future, it will not be by  a system requiring   
interest  on money which must be repaid with wealth that does not  
exist when