Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
At 1:36 PM -0800 1/3/2011, John Carmonne wrote: On Jan 3, 2011, at 6:28 AM, Dan wrote: At 1:48 PM -0800 1/2/2011, John Carmonne wrote: 3 GB's per second Time Warner RoadRunner turbo Talladega Fast Run some traceroutes to the destination, to make sure there isn't a problem between you. This is not happening when using the G4 MDD, G5 Dual 2.7 or MacBook Pro on the same network. Which still does not preclude a network issue ON THAT MAC. So again, run some traceroutes. Ok. Run Activity Monitor and watch the paging and i/o rates. I have no idea what this is. If I have to be on iChat to check this it's hard to get anyone to stay up long enough.:-) Launch Activity Monitor. View the System Memory pane. Observe the page in/out numbers. If they change a lot while you're doing video then you have a paging problem. View the Disk Activity pane. Observe the data written/sec. If it's high while you're doing video then you're caching to disk like crazy. At 10:49 AM -0800 1/4/2011, John Carmonne wrote: I may not be correctly adding the fmt=5 to the url. can you explain how to do that. when I start the YouTube I add the code to the end of the url but I get no change on the Cube or my TiBooks. Take the YouTube url, add fmt=5 and refresh the browser page. eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMltvlqEM54 vs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMltvlqEM54fmt=5 Again - try Yahoo! Messenger's video. I suggest this because if it works ok then the problem is not your basic network connectivity etc. I don't know how to use Yahoo that's why I have iChat and Skype It's for the layamn. Have you bothered to try? There are Help Files available. It's quite simple. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On 03/01/11 10:16 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: Yes it DOES have to do with the video card. 10.4 offloads a bunch of processing to the video GPU if possible (and it's not just Core Video stuff). Was this an error on Apple's side. Was it fixed in 10.5. Why would they do this? Could this explain similar problems I have on my Sawtooth with 10.4 and a good video card. Lots of questions, some of which are just thoughts. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On 03/01/11 10:52 AM, John Carmonne wrote: Streaming video is MUCH more CPU intensive than DVD playback. (This was covered in exhaustive detail on this list a month or so back), so anything that can be moved to the much-faster GPU really makes a difference. John, What Bruce is really saying here is this: no one in this group, or perhaps, anywhere can find a way to sort out the problem with online videos on G4s such as yours and the Sawtooth. He has said though something new; that this problem is partly a cause of how 10.4 was written. That's very new and adds valuable insight to this common problem. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 4, 2011, at 8:56 AM, Nestamicky wrote: On 03/01/11 10:16 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: Yes it DOES have to do with the video card. 10.4 offloads a bunch of processing to the video GPU if possible (and it's not just Core Video stuff). Was this an error on Apple's side. ?? No this was a conscious design decision in 10.4 on the part of Apple, part of the really bug 'under-the-hood' improvements in 10.4. See John Siracusa's in depth review of 10.4: http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2005/04/macosx-10-4.ars/ the whole discussion of Quartz starting at page 13 is what I'm referring to. Was it fixed in 10.5. No, it was significantly enhanced in 10.5. OSX offloads much more processing onto the video card, the Core Video, Core image technologies are much improved. Why would they do this? Because Video card GPU's are VASTLY faster at these sorts of calculations than the CPU in the Mac. Could this explain similar problems I have on my Sawtooth with 10.4 and a good video card. Lots of questions, some of which are just thoughts. Possibly. More likely, however, is that the streaming videos we get today are simply bigger...most are now HD using very processor-dependent codecs. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 3, 11:16 am, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: Yes it DOES have to do with the video card. 10.4 offloads a bunch of processing to the video GPU if possible (and it's not just Core Video stuff). Streaming video is MUCH more CPU intensive than DVD playback. (This was covered in exhaustive detail on this list a month or so back), so anything that can be moved to the much-faster GPU really makes a difference. Also a Geforce 6200 is a much newer card than a GeForce3, iirc. Interesting. I thought the reason that VLC handles video playback on older Macs (this is true, right?) was that it offloaded a lot of video processing to the video card, whereas iTunes/Quicktime did not. Have I been misinformed? Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 2, 1:24 pm, John Carmonne carmo...@aol.com wrote: I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get aYouTubeto play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. My G4 MDD 1.25 is 100 % better than the Cube. Can this be a Bus speed issue the Cube is 100 and the MDD is 167. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP As an additional note, if you right click on a Flash video (or animation), Settings... is one of the options. If you click on Settings, then go to the Display tab (looks like a flat screen monitor) there is an Enable Hardware Acceleration checkbox. In my case, it was off by default. Turning this on didn't seem to help playback on my G5, but I was wondering if it helped anyone else. Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
At 8:52 AM -0800 1/4/2011, imrazor wrote: Interesting. I thought the reason that VLC handles video playback on older Macs (this is true, right?) was that it offloaded a lot of video processing to the video card, whereas iTunes/Quicktime did not. Have I been misinformed? VLC does NOT use the GPU for video decoding on the Mac. Since OS X 10.6.3 includes a new API for accessing the GPUs, support in VLC may be added in the future. In general, VLC is so successful at what it does because it is extremely well written. Imagine how powerful QuickTime could be if it was as well done! ...Case in point, since you mentioned iTunes... It is pitiful that an app such as Audion can play streamed radio using less than 5% of a 200 MHz CPU but iTunes on the same computer uses over 20%! I think there are some misconceptions as to what does what... Video data is encoded / compressed in some way. The player must read that data, decompress it, decode it (turn it into usable frames), render the frames into video data, then display it on your screen - umpteen times per second. ...It is only those decompress and decode functions that are included in the codec module. The question is which of those steps is performed where? Normally, everything from render on is done on the video card, in its GPU. The codec - the software module that does the decompression and decoding - can also benefit from doing things in the GPU. But to do so, it needs to know how that particular GPU works, and what special features it has available (eg: MPEG-2 and more recently MPEG-4 H.264 decoding). Apple tries to make this easy(ier) to do by providing things like the OpenGL and QuickTime frameworks and providing APIs into Quartz. Still up to the codec's author to take advantage of them tho. But wait -- let's make it more complicated! LOL What if the video player supports filtering and such, as VLC does? Well, then you give the GPU the data to crunch, *then take it back*, apply those filters and such using the main CPU, then pass the data off to the GPU *again* for rendering and display. ew. A good example of a codec author failure is, of course, Adobe's Flash. Instead of cleaning up their own code and taking advantage of the great tools that Apple provides, they spent millions on a b*tchfest about Apple refusing to give them direct access to the hardware. Another example is the development of the name brand DivX codec. Why is it so abysmally slow and unstable, while Perian runs circles around it LOL At 10:16 AM -0700 1/3/2011, Bruce Johnson wrote: Streaming video is MUCH more CPU intensive than DVD playback. To elaborate a bit... DVD-Video is low-compression MPEG-2. Easy to play, even on a very slow machine. Streamed video is highly compressed Flash or MPEG-4 H.264. Very CPU intensive to decompress and decode -- and that's before the GPU involvement (if any). Now, to get back to the OP's problem... There is something going on BEYOND bus and processor speed and all that total guesswork hand-waving. On my 300 MHz Smurf, I can view YouTube video *smoothly* with fmt=5 added to the urls. If my *G3* Smurf can do that, then his *G4* Cube can certainly do it. But he says not. So there is something else happening. (waiting for specific answers to the questioned I posted on 1/3). - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 3, 2011, at 6:28 AM, Dan wrote: At 1:48 PM -0800 1/2/2011, John Carmonne wrote: 3 GB's per second Time Warner RoadRunner turbo Talladega Fast Run some traceroutes to the destination, to make sure there isn't a problem between you. This is not happening when using the G4 MDD, G5 Dual 2.7 or MacBook Pro on the same network. Ok. Run Activity Monitor and watch the paging and i/o rates. I have no idea what this is. If I have to be on iChat to check this it's hard to get anyone to stay up long enough.:-) Do YouTube vids clean up if you add fmt=5 to the end of the url? No the same deal. DVD's play perfect. The iChat and Skype is all I'm bothered with. DVDs playing fine means that your CPU, GPU, memory bus speed, and disk i/o speed are fine. Can you play streamed videos from sites such as hulu? No HuLu is a disaster Again - try Yahoo! Messenger's video. I suggest this because if it works ok then the problem is not your basic network connectivity etc. I don't know how to use Yahoo that's why I have iChat and Skype It's for the layamn. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 4, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Dan wrote: To elaborate a bit... DVD-Video is low-compression MPEG-2. Easy to play, even on a very slow machine. Streamed video is highly compressed Flash or MPEG-4 H.264. Very CPU intensive to decompress and decode -- and that's before the GPU involvement (if any). Now, to get back to the OP's problem... There is something going on BEYOND bus and processor speed and all that total guesswork hand- waving. On my 300 MHz Smurf, I can view YouTube video *smoothly* with fmt=5 added to the urls. If my *G3* Smurf can do that, then his *G4* Cube can certainly do it. But he says not. So there is something else happening. (waiting for specific answers to the questioned I posted on 1/3). - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. I may not be correctly adding the fmt=5 to the url. can you explain how to do that. when I start the YouTube I add the code to the end of the url but I get no change on the Cube or my TiBooks. JOHN CARMONNE Yorba Linda USA From TiBook 867 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
At 1:48 PM -0800 1/2/2011, John Carmonne wrote: 3 GB's per second Time Warner RoadRunner turbo Talladega Fast Run some traceroutes to the destination, to make sure there isn't a problem between you. Why do you think some bus speed is involved? Playing video is very CPU intensive, not memory or i/o intensive. My MDD 1.25 and Cube have the exact same CCC'd system so I thought because the Cube Bus is 100 and the MDD is 167 this is the only difference in the machines the Cubes video card is GeForce 3. Also one of My TiBooks 867 is 133 bus and iChat is better than the Cube but not as good as the G4 MDD or the G5 PowerMac so the faster processors only seem to do well on the faster Bus for the streaming AV? Ok. Run Activity Monitor and watch the paging and i/o rates. Do YouTube vids clean up if you add fmt=5 to the end of the url? ? Try Yahoo! Messenger's video. Is it smooth? Are you having playing other videos? DVD's play perfect. The iChat and Skype is all I'm bothered with. DVDs playing fine means that your CPU, GPU, memory bus speed, and disk i/o speed are fine. Can you play streamed videos from sites such as hulu? Again - try Yahoo! Messenger's video. I suggest this because if it works ok then the problem is not your basic network connectivity etc. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 2, 2:24 pm, John Carmonne carmo...@aol.com wrote: I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get a YouTube to play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. It sounds like the Cube is nicely upgraded, the weak link may be the video card. My Cube has a GeForce 6200, a popular upgrade for the Cube, and it plays video pretty well (considering its age!). -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 3, 2011, at 8:39 AM, dc wrote: On Jan 2, 2:24 pm, John Carmonne carmo...@aol.com wrote: I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get a YouTube to play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. It sounds like the Cube is nicely upgraded, the weak link may be the video card. My Cube has a GeForce 6200, a popular upgrade for the Cube, and it plays video pretty well (considering its age!). I have a GeForce 3 card that replaced a Radeon 7500 so I think that would discount the video card plus the display is only a Apple Studio 17 ADC. Playing video is not a problem its the streaming stuff like YouTube, iChat and Skype. Compared to my G4 1.25 MDD and G5 2.7 PowerMac the Cube isn't in the hunt even though it's got a 1.2 GHz processor. I still need to check some more things that Dan suggested I'm not alone with this problem It's hard to find folks that use a Cube or any slow Bus machine for iChat or Skype, hence the confusion as to the video performance. JOHN CARMONNE Yorba Linda USA From TiBook 867 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 3, 2011, at 9:56 AM, John Carmonne wrote: Playing video is not a problem its the streaming stuff like YouTube, iChat and Skype. Compared to my G4 1.25 MDD and G5 2.7 PowerMac the Cube isn't in the hunt even though it's got a 1.2 GHz processor. Yes it DOES have to do with the video card. 10.4 offloads a bunch of processing to the video GPU if possible (and it's not just Core Video stuff). Streaming video is MUCH more CPU intensive than DVD playback. (This was covered in exhaustive detail on this list a month or so back), so anything that can be moved to the much-faster GPU really makes a difference. Also a Geforce 6200 is a much newer card than a GeForce3, iirc. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 3, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Jan 3, 2011, at 9:56 AM, John Carmonne wrote: Playing video is not a problem its the streaming stuff like YouTube, iChat and Skype. Compared to my G4 1.25 MDD and G5 2.7 PowerMac the Cube isn't in the hunt even though it's got a 1.2 GHz processor. Yes it DOES have to do with the video card. 10.4 offloads a bunch of processing to the video GPU if possible (and it's not just Core Video stuff). Streaming video is MUCH more CPU intensive than DVD playback. (This was covered in exhaustive detail on this list a month or so back), so anything that can be moved to the much-faster GPU really makes a difference. Also a Geforce 6200 is a much newer card than a GeForce3, iirc. -- My MDD has a Radeon Pro 9000 4x 64 MB card where as the Cube has a 2X slot with a 64 MB GeForce card, So using the smooth operation of the MDD 1.25 as a standard I assume the video card in the cube is adequate. Also one of my Cubies has a Nvidia 6800 256MB 256-Bit w/ Fan in his 1.7 Cube and no joy on ichat or Skype, This is where we seem to think the Bus speed is the bottle neck. So far I've heard from no one who claims to have a smooth, in sync, iChat or Skype experience on a Cube in any configuration. i JOHN CARMONNE Yorba Linda USA From TiBook 867 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get a YouTube to play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. My G4 MDD 1.25 is 100 % better than the Cube. Can this be a Bus speed issue the Cube is 100 and the MDD is 167. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
At 11:24 AM -0800 1/2/2011, John Carmonne wrote: I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get a YouTube to play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. My G4 MDD 1.25 is 100 % better than the Cube. Can this be a Bus speed issue the Cube is 100 and the MDD is 167. OS? Flash vers? iChat vers? Details count! What else is running? Have you tried clearing caches and such? What speed is your network connection? Is it running at said speed or ? Why do you think some bus speed is involved? Playing video is very CPU intensive, not memory or i/o intensive. Do YouTube vids clean up if you add fmt=5 to the end of the url? Try Yahoo! Messenger's video. Is it smooth? Are you having playing other videos? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iChat and YouTube on a G4 Cube
On Jan 2, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Dan wrote: At 11:24 AM -0800 1/2/2011, John Carmonne wrote: I seem to have run into a bottle neck on my Cube 1.2GHz 1.5 GB RAM in that I can't get a YouTube to play smooth and iChat is out of sync on the sound along with very jumpy video. My G4 MDD 1.25 is 100 % better than the Cube. Can this be a Bus speed issue the Cube is 100 and the MDD is 167. OS? Flash vers? iChat vers? Details count! OS 10.5.8, iChat 4.0.8, What else is running? Nothing not even Mail Have you tried clearing caches and such? To the max What speed is your network connection? Is it running at said speed or ? 3 GB's per second Time Warner RoadRunner turbo Talladega Fast Why do you think some bus speed is involved? Playing video is very CPU intensive, not memory or i/o intensive. My MDD 1.25 and Cube have the exact same CCC'd system so I thought because the Cube Bus is 100 and the MDD is 167 this is the only difference in the machines the Cubes video card is GeForce 3. Also one of My TiBooks 867 is 133 bus and iChat is better than the Cube but not as good as the G4 MDD or the G5 PowerMac so the faster processors only seem to do well on the faster Bus for the streaming AV? Do YouTube vids clean up if you add fmt=5 to the end of the url? Try Yahoo! Messenger's video. Is it smooth? Are you having playing other videos? DVD's play perfect. The iChat and Skype is all I'm bothered with. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
