Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi Michael, While I take your point just keep in mind here Microsoft's aim of Windows 7 was to make the operating system more stable, streamline the install, and basically remove a bunch of extra apps and components they felt were unecessary. That's why a lot of older apps were removed from the install. For example, take e-mail. When Windows XP was released in 2001 most people used a dedicated e-mail client like Outlook Express to check their e-mail. However, in 2011 the majority of internet service providers offers webmail accounts, and there are a lot of people who now use Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo Mail, etc and use the web interface to check mail. Therefore the need for a dedicated e-mail client has dramatically dropped and that's why something like Outlook Express and Windows Mail don't ship with Windows 7 by default. The times have changed where Outlook Express and Windows Mail aren't strictly necessary applications for a lot of Windows users. That said, there really isn't a good answer for installing the old Windows Pinball game, Windows Movie Maker, or the Windows XP volume control. The best answer I can give for a situation like that is if you have a copy of Windows XP to make a backup of the programs and icons you want to say and manually install them on Windows 7 by hand. there really isn't any other way I know of to get some of those apps and games Microsoft has dropped support for then to back them up yourself. Cheers! On 12/12/11, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Thomas, Yes, windows programs get new features and yes, it is up to you to decide if you want to use them or not... But let me ask you something just as an example. Do you know what the difference between Windows Movie Maker and Windows Live Movie Maker is? As far as I am informed the Windows Movie Maker of XP or Vista isn't included in Windows 7 anymore and the Windows Live product of the same name is not the same product with more features and just a new design. A blind person might not be interested in video editing, but a sighted person could be. Or another example is E-Mail programs. Windows XP had Outlook Express, Vista had Windows Mail and Windows 7 has the Windows Mail folder included, but the program cannot be run except you can replace the entire Windows Mail folder in your program files directory with the folder from a Vista installation... Or you use Windows Live products again... But the question remains what about things dropped out of an operating system? You are right in saying that Windows Explorer of Windows 7 has more features than the one of Windows 98 - no doubt there. But what about dropped features? While the system restore feature of Windows XP is good, it is not needed when you just want to repair your registry a bit for which Windows 98 had scanreg. Now you are required to buy third party tools like Tune Up Utilities or other PC cleaning and tuning programs to get similar features. Or what about the Windows XP style volume control program or the XP style Audio Recorder? What do I do with Windows 7 and altered or missing programs (not limited to programs best accessible for blind people)? Or does Windows 7 still include the Pinball game from Windows ME or later from XP? You get what I mean. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi trouble. Hmmm this is quite lively. In responce to the touch issue, as long as we can get a keyboard of sorts on a system I am all for touch, maybe have speech rec to. Ofcause the fact with apple that you have different chalenges is something to think about though I have heard users touch and go quite fast, faster than the board. Windows being touch, hmmm. Jaws etc will cost lots to upgrade, nvda is the only one that is thinking about developing touch as far as I know. Ofcause we would have to make another touch system. We must remember that all the interfaces, reader, etc are kernal based, no doubt we will have other issues with touch. However that would solve a lot of the issues we are and could have in the future. it would make us freer. However I have people that still think the mouse and touch systems are not a good idea. I have gotten used to swamp with the mouse and am about to upgrade. Touch, hmmm maybe if I got a bigger pad, hmmm. At 07:46 a.m. 12/12/2011 -0500, you wrote: The next move for screen readers should be touch. Apple already makes use of this and I use it a lot. i go through twice as much email as i can with jaws and lets not forget moving around on the computer with just my finger and no spoken commands. The games that can be explored by touch are going to be interesting. Just look what the mouse has done. And that could of ben done sooner. The problem is those that write the screen readers didn't think blind people could use a mouse. At 02:18 AM 12/12/2011, you wrote: Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
we never had to pay for service packs but oses 7 and vista, yeah we had to pay for both. At 09:26 a.m. 12/12/2011 -0600, you wrote: Sort of like paying for a whole bunch of benefits that are provided by a hotel that you won't be using, in case you did want to use them. That part I understand. But building a new one every 2 years or so and, after a time, closing the older one that is more popular and that no longer has plumbing or electrical problems, so that the customer must use the one that still has the bugs in it? That's what I don't like. If I have something that is stable and basically reliably bug free, why should I have to get the new one that is not? If they want to make more money, their product should be worth the cost we must pay. Service packs for XP were free of charge, and they fixed what we had to pay for, that was broke, to begin with. Windows 7 fixed the Vista bugs, and I think we had to pay for both? I might be wrong in that one, though. --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
sound, we need drivers with everything, though now ms have generic drivers you think they would have loaded those for the installs now. At 05:01 p.m. 12/12/2011 +0100, you wrote: Hi Thomas, I personally are also not against new technologies or new features in future Windows operating systems or other programs. But I'd like to adress a few points as well. If a company wants to improove their software, then this is often good for all users and not because security might be better. But what I often don't get is why people think it is time to force design changes. I know of the ribbon interface of MS Office products and such. I don't have used them (Office 2007 or 2010) thus I won't comment on which screen reader can best handle it. I also know that every major upgrade brings new features as well. But what I don't get is why MS did come up with the new interface and removed the old interface instead of having them both in the product for every person sighted or not to choose the design of their product. I mean, why do programs like Winamp or Windows Media Player allow skins or skin packs? The players ship with a standard interface, but are open for user created content. Besides I had a sighted teacher who personally told me that he had several sighted friends and colleagues who were users of MS Office pre 2007 and when the new products came out they also had problems adapting and getting to figure out the new interface and they could see and use the mouse properly compared to us blind people. And about screen readers like Voice Over or Narrator. It would be good if thoose could be improoved. But what I still don't get is why any assistive technology included in an operating system (windows mostly) cannot be used to aid during first installation (when you format your hard drive or when you use a blank one). For years there was nothing short of a sighted person to help even if it became a bit easier with unattended installations of XP and a few older Windows versions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
How do you expect to use the hardware, and incase you didn't know. All versions of ops need drivers to run the hardware. At 04:25 AM 12/13/2011, you wrote: sound, we need drivers with everything, though now ms have generic drivers you think they would have loaded those for the installs now. At 05:01 p.m. 12/12/2011 +0100, you wrote: Hi Thomas, I personally are also not against new technologies or new features in future Windows operating systems or other programs. But I'd like to adress a few points as well. If a company wants to improove their software, then this is often good for all users and not because security might be better. But what I often don't get is why people think it is time to force design changes. I know of the ribbon interface of MS Office products and such. I don't have used them (Office 2007 or 2010) thus I won't comment on which screen reader can best handle it. I also know that every major upgrade brings new features as well. But what I don't get is why MS did come up with the new interface and removed the old interface instead of having them both in the product for every person sighted or not to choose the design of their product. I mean, why do programs like Winamp or Windows Media Player allow skins or skin packs? The players ship with a standard interface, but are open for user created content. Besides I had a sighted teacher who personally told me that he had several sighted friends and colleagues who were users of MS Office pre 2007 and when the new products came out they also had problems adapting and getting to figure out the new interface and they could see and use the mouse properly compared to us blind people. And about screen readers like Voice Over or Narrator. It would be good if thoose could be improoved. But what I still don't get is why any assistive technology included in an operating system (windows mostly) cannot be used to aid during first installation (when you format your hard drive or when you use a blank one). For years there was nothing short of a sighted person to help even if it became a bit easier with unattended installations of XP and a few older Windows versions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
And just what plan it you from? Because I run both of those ops and never paid for sp1 on any op. At 04:18 AM 12/13/2011, you wrote: we never had to pay for service packs but oses 7 and vista, yeah we had to pay for both. At 09:26 a.m. 12/12/2011 -0600, you wrote: Sort of like paying for a whole bunch of benefits that are provided by a hotel that you won't be using, in case you did want to use them. That part I understand. But building a new one every 2 years or so and, after a time, closing the older one that is more popular and that no longer has plumbing or electrical problems, so that the customer must use the one that still has the bugs in it? That's what I don't like. If I have something that is stable and basically reliably bug free, why should I have to get the new one that is not? If they want to make more money, their product should be worth the cost we must pay. Service packs for XP were free of charge, and they fixed what we had to pay for, that was broke, to begin with. Windows 7 fixed the Vista bugs, and I think we had to pay for both? I might be wrong in that one, though. --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi Thomas, I am aware of this, but I am seriously questioning some of theese facts. Why do I have to use my web browser for dealing with E-Mails, when I have any Mail application installed, whether it is from MS or someone else. I know a friend and one of her mail accounts was with the German part of Windows Live. She personally told me that the web interface to access and send mails via her live account was inaccessible. Thus using Thunderbird for example was a good choice for her. But this doesn't explain why they want to promote the Windows Live tools. As I said, the feature set of Windows Live Mail is not the same as Windows Mail from Windows Vista... And Movie Maker of XP might be old, but there is also a version of Movie Maker in Vista... But Windows Live Movie Maker you are encouraged to use is not mainly a video recording and editing tool, but more like a content preparation tool for video sharing on platforms like Youtube. It means pa program with a similar name, but an entire new program behind the name. While I personally have no problems with a video sharing tool, I have a problem when MS says we dropped a video editing tool from Windows 7, but hey, there is a program with the same name, but totally different functionality!... Same goes for Windows volume control. I had the misfortune to atempt to assist my sighted mother with playback of some non standard Midi files on a Windows 7 laptop, where the installation medium (DVD) is altered by the manufacturer in a bad way... The result of the atempted midi playback left much to be desired and because the volume control program of XP was missing plus some more sound related settings, I quickly came to the end of my knowledge even with a totally sighted person next to me... That's the thing I meant... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Shaun, you said: We must remember that all the interfaces, reader, etc are kernal based, no doubt we will have other issues with touch. What exactly do you mean by this statement? If I decode this correctly, do you imply that all screen readers need to install hooks into the windows kernel that might not work the same on each system? This is not true by the way. NVDA and System access does not require any hooks into the kernel of windows and as long as you use the methods to access the touch pad or anything else, I can't see what the problem might be. The method jfw, etc uses will need to be changed anyway as windows 8 is very different in this regard to windows 7 and these hooks into the kernel won't work as before. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
HI, Wait...wait...go back. You are suggesting Microsoft make available the ribbon interface and menubarsat the same time? All right: that's all well and good. But what if they develop a third interface. Thenyou just tack that onto the list of interfaces, right? Then a fourth? And a fifth? We keep complaining that Windows is getting more and more bloated, but what about this kind of thing? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Gauler Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:01 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Thomas, I personally are also not against new technologies or new features in future Windows operating systems or other programs. But I'd like to adress a few points as well. If a company wants to improove their software, then this is often good for all users and not because security might be better. But what I often don't get is why people think it is time to force design changes. I know of the ribbon interface of MS Office products and such. I don't have used them (Office 2007 or 2010) thus I won't comment on which screen reader can best handle it. I also know that every major upgrade brings new features as well. But what I don't get is why MS did come up with the new interface and removed the old interface instead of having them both in the product for every person sighted or not to choose the design of their product. I mean, why do programs like Winamp or Windows Media Player allow skins or skin packs? The players ship with a standard interface, but are open for user created content. Besides I had a sighted teacher who personally told me that he had several sighted friends and colleagues who were users of MS Office pre 2007 and when the new products came out they also had problems adapting and getting to figure out the new interface and they could see and use the mouse properly compared to us blind people. And about screen readers like Voice Over or Narrator. It would be good if thoose could be improoved. But what I still don't get is why any assistive technology included in an operating system (windows mostly) cannot be used to aid during first installation (when you format your hard drive or when you use a blank one). For years there was nothing short of a sighted person to help even if it became a bit easier with unattended installations of XP and a few older Windows versions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
we almost need skinable oses, office, etc like winamp. Then we can install what we want. So windows should start with a bare bones interface then once we have sound, etc we can actually load the interface ourselves. I myself would like an event with ambient sound that plays one sound constantly, and have each key on the keyboard make a sound, enter make a sound, menus, etc as well as the other things when you open programs, etc, maybe have programs make their own sound. Then I could run my system like a trek ship or something, I am not sure how distracting it could be though but still. At 07:03 p.m. 13/12/2011 -0600, you wrote: HI, Wait...wait...go back. You are suggesting Microsoft make available the ribbon interface and menubarsat the same time? All right: that's all well and good. But what if they develop a third interface. Thenyou just tack that onto the list of interfaces, right? Then a fourth? And a fifth? We keep complaining that Windows is getting more and more bloated, but what about this kind of thing? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Gauler Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:01 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Thomas, I personally are also not against new technologies or new features in future Windows operating systems or other programs. But I'd like to adress a few points as well. If a company wants to improove their software, then this is often good for all users and not because security might be better. But what I often don't get is why people think it is time to force design changes. I know of the ribbon interface of MS Office products and such. I don't have used them (Office 2007 or 2010) thus I won't comment on which screen reader can best handle it. I also know that every major upgrade brings new features as well. But what I don't get is why MS did come up with the new interface and removed the old interface instead of having them both in the product for every person sighted or not to choose the design of their product. I mean, why do programs like Winamp or Windows Media Player allow skins or skin packs? The players ship with a standard interface, but are open for user created content. Besides I had a sighted teacher who personally told me that he had several sighted friends and colleagues who were users of MS Office pre 2007 and when the new products came out they also had problems adapting and getting to figure out the new interface and they could see and use the mouse properly compared to us blind people. And about screen readers like Voice Over or Narrator. It would be good if thoose could be improoved. But what I still don't get is why any assistive technology included in an operating system (windows mostly) cannot be used to aid during first installation (when you format your hard drive or when you use a blank one). For years there was nothing short of a sighted person to help even if it became a bit easier with unattended installations of XP and a few older Windows versions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
that we've gone as far as we need to. The fact that you, or I may not have a use case for updating a particular item now doesn't mean that at some point a new set of possibilities may not occur that would make such a use case compelling. Sorry for this near rant, but I see this kind of thinking in all sorts of arenas and not just among disabled folk. I think it's important that we embrace advances in technology when it is prudent to do so and not be afraid of change. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 5:32 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
The next move for screen readers should be touch. Apple already makes use of this and I use it a lot. i go through twice as much email as i can with jaws and lets not forget moving around on the computer with just my finger and no spoken commands. The games that can be explored by touch are going to be interesting. Just look what the mouse has done. And that could of ben done sooner. The problem is those that write the screen readers didn't think blind people could use a mouse. At 02:18 AM 12/12/2011, you wrote: Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Sort of like paying for a whole bunch of benefits that are provided by a hotel that you won't be using, in case you did want to use them. That part I understand. But building a new one every 2 years or so and, after a time, closing the older one that is more popular and that no longer has plumbing or electrical problems, so that the customer must use the one that still has the bugs in it? That's what I don't like. If I have something that is stable and basically reliably bug free, why should I have to get the new one that is not? If they want to make more money, their product should be worth the cost we must pay. Service packs for XP were free of charge, and they fixed what we had to pay for, that was broke, to begin with. Windows 7 fixed the Vista bugs, and I think we had to pay for both? I might be wrong in that one, though. --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi Thomas, I personally are also not against new technologies or new features in future Windows operating systems or other programs. But I'd like to adress a few points as well. If a company wants to improove their software, then this is often good for all users and not because security might be better. But what I often don't get is why people think it is time to force design changes. I know of the ribbon interface of MS Office products and such. I don't have used them (Office 2007 or 2010) thus I won't comment on which screen reader can best handle it. I also know that every major upgrade brings new features as well. But what I don't get is why MS did come up with the new interface and removed the old interface instead of having them both in the product for every person sighted or not to choose the design of their product. I mean, why do programs like Winamp or Windows Media Player allow skins or skin packs? The players ship with a standard interface, but are open for user created content. Besides I had a sighted teacher who personally told me that he had several sighted friends and colleagues who were users of MS Office pre 2007 and when the new products came out they also had problems adapting and getting to figure out the new interface and they could see and use the mouse properly compared to us blind people. And about screen readers like Voice Over or Narrator. It would be good if thoose could be improoved. But what I still don't get is why any assistive technology included in an operating system (windows mostly) cannot be used to aid during first installation (when you format your hard drive or when you use a blank one). For years there was nothing short of a sighted person to help even if it became a bit easier with unattended installations of XP and a few older Windows versions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi Thomas, Yes, windows programs get new features and yes, it is up to you to decide if you want to use them or not... But let me ask you something just as an example. Do you know what the difference between Windows Movie Maker and Windows Live Movie Maker is? As far as I am informed the Windows Movie Maker of XP or Vista isn't included in Windows 7 anymore and the Windows Live product of the same name is not the same product with more features and just a new design. A blind person might not be interested in video editing, but a sighted person could be. Or another example is E-Mail programs. Windows XP had Outlook Express, Vista had Windows Mail and Windows 7 has the Windows Mail folder included, but the program cannot be run except you can replace the entire Windows Mail folder in your program files directory with the folder from a Vista installation... Or you use Windows Live products again... But the question remains what about things dropped out of an operating system? You are right in saying that Windows Explorer of Windows 7 has more features than the one of Windows 98 - no doubt there. But what about dropped features? While the system restore feature of Windows XP is good, it is not needed when you just want to repair your registry a bit for which Windows 98 had scanreg. Now you are required to buy third party tools like Tune Up Utilities or other PC cleaning and tuning programs to get similar features. Or what about the Windows XP style volume control program or the XP style Audio Recorder? What do I do with Windows 7 and altered or missing programs (not limited to programs best accessible for blind people)? Or does Windows 7 still include the Pinball game from Windows ME or later from XP? You get what I mean. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi Charles, The problem is that trying to maintain old software uses up a lot of resources and becomes very expensive. It is almost impossible to create bug-free software without expending huge amounts of software. NASA, for example, spends billions of dollars and countless months of testing to ensure that their software is bug-free. That's just not feesible with a piece of software as complex as an operating system. You might think Windows XP is stable and bug-free, but I can guarantee you that it's not and never will be. Every month, Microsoft releases several patches to fix problems, and when XP leaves support in 2014, 13 years after it was released, there will still be countless bugs that haven't been discovered. You could ask the question, why can't MS just keep supporting XP? Because by then, they'll be trying to support Windows Server 2003, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008, Windows 8, Windows 8 Server, and the next version of Windows will be in development. They can't just keep supporting old operating systems forever, because eventually they'll be expending all their resources trying to support old code and trying to build new technologies on top of it. There's a reason Windows 9X was abandoned in favor of NT-based operating systems such as XP, and that's because those systems were no longer meeting peooples' needs and couldn't keep up with new technology. On 12/12/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Sort of like paying for a whole bunch of benefits that are provided by a hotel that you won't be using, in case you did want to use them. That part I understand. But building a new one every 2 years or so and, after a time, closing the older one that is more popular and that no longer has plumbing or electrical problems, so that the customer must use the one that still has the bugs in it? That's what I don't like. If I have something that is stable and basically reliably bug free, why should I have to get the new one that is not? If they want to make more money, their product should be worth the cost we must pay. Service packs for XP were free of charge, and they fixed what we had to pay for, that was broke, to begin with. Windows 7 fixed the Vista bugs, and I think we had to pay for both? I might be wrong in that one, though. --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really
[Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
While money is one motivating factor, one reason you can't just stop once you get a system that works is that, with something as complex as an operating system and the fallibility of programmers, it's almost impossible to get a system that does exactly what you want. Any operating system meant for modern desktop users has millions of lines of code, and there's bound to be quite a few mistakes. Another reason is that hardware and technology evolve. New hardware is created, better security solutions are created, and better ways of doing things in general. If MS had decided, after releasing Windows 98 that it was perfect and they were done, Windows would have died to be replaced by OS x or Linux, which support WiFi, Bluetooth and USB, which are just a few technologies that have developed since then. As for system resources, it is true that the jump between Windows XP and Vista was a hard one, because Vista requires much more CPU resources and emory. It's important to note though that Windows 7's requirements are identical to Vista, and Windows 8 will actually have lower requirements. I'm curious about the aversion to new technology that seems to be common in the blindness community. It's true that many in this community are on fixed incomes and can't always afford to upgrade, there seems to be an aversion to having to learn any new software interfaces, even when those new interfaces are perfectly accessible and come with an upgrade that they've purchased. This seems to occur even within assistive technology companies, which I suspect have a large responsibility for this. Older versions of JAWS used to recommend disabling Windows XP's features, and I remember listening to a Serotek podcast in which the developers of System Access were fawning over a product that disabled features in Windows 7. This is a bit puzzling to me, as all of those features were perfectly accessible. On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
When is it the right time to stop innovating? When can you be certain that more processing power will never be necessary? When will you have found everything that everyone needs to do, and when will they be able to do it well enough? The thing about technological advances is that each one not only makes things possible that weren't, but makes things possible that no one could imagine before the advance took place. Sure, computers work well enough, if you discount all the myriad times when they don't. I can do everything I need to do currently (except music editing/production) on my two-year-old netbook running Windows XP. I haven't upgraded to Windows 7 because I haven't had a compelling use case to do so. But it would I think be presumptuous of me to say that the evolution of computers and operating systems has gone far enough and can't we please just be happy with what we have? Look at the cell phone world. Even two years ago, the idea of full accessibility to a cell phone was still a fractured dream for blind users. IOS began changing that thought, but now there's competition and different ways of doing things, and the dream of a voice-powered, pseudo-intelligent personal assistant is at least on the horizon, with early prototypes out in the world. The revolutions in access these technologies promise weren't imaginable for most people when we had dumb phones that simply made calls and maybe kept a calendar and task list. We are within a few years of the mass obsolescence of a lot of specialized access technology, with the accompanying blindness tax that will make access to many things available to people who can't afford to drop a thousand dollars on a piece of specialized software, or $7,000 for a notetaker. So be not over hasty to say that we've gone as far as we need to. The fact that you, or I may not have a use case for updating a particular item now doesn't mean that at some point a new set of possibilities may not occur that would make such a use case compelling. Sorry for this near rant, but I see this kind of thinking in all sorts of arenas and not just among disabled folk. I think it's important that we embrace advances in technology when it is prudent to do so and not be afraid of change. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 5:32 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
hi chris. well put. and i for one, love to see what games we will be able to make with the newer operating systems and hardware in time to come! its going to be a blast! dallas On 12/12/2011 10:20, Christopher Bartlett wrote: When is it the right time to stop innovating? When can you be certain that more processing power will never be necessary? When will you have found everything that everyone needs to do, and when will they be able to do it well enough? The thing about technological advances is that each one not only makes things possible that weren't, but makes things possible that no one could imagine before the advance took place. Sure, computers work well enough, if you discount all the myriad times when they don't. I can do everything I need to do currently (except music editing/production) on my two-year-old netbook running Windows XP. I haven't upgraded to Windows 7 because I haven't had a compelling use case to do so. But it would I think be presumptuous of me to say that the evolution of computers and operating systems has gone far enough and can't we please just be happy with what we have? Look at the cell phone world. Even two years ago, the idea of full accessibility to a cell phone was still a fractured dream for blind users. IOS began changing that thought, but now there's competition and different ways of doing things, and the dream of a voice-powered, pseudo-intelligent personal assistant is at least on the horizon, with early prototypes out in the world. The revolutions in access these technologies promise weren't imaginable for most people when we had dumb phones that simply made calls and maybe kept a calendar and task list. We are within a few years of the mass obsolescence of a lot of specialized access technology, with the accompanying blindness tax that will make access to many things available to people who can't afford to drop a thousand dollars on a piece of specialized software, or $7,000 for a notetaker. So be not over hasty to say that we've gone as far as we need to. The fact that you, or I may not have a use case for updating a particular item now doesn't mean that at some point a new set of possibilities may not occur that would make such a use case compelling. Sorry for this near rant, but I see this kind of thinking in all sorts of arenas and not just among disabled folk. I think it's important that we embrace advances in technology when it is prudent to do so and not be afraid of change. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 5:32 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: darkd...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion listgamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
You can blame the game nuts for that. The sighted like using powerfull games which need that power. As for upgrades all stuff needs to be upgraded, storage hardware, security etc. At 04:32 p.m. 11/12/2011 -0600, you wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] plans for an updated Lone Wolf Hi Alex. As I said I'm not annoyed that Microsoft update their os, they have to, even if we don't like some of their decisions on interfaces etc. it just seems though that they don't give a dam about running older programs, games or anything else, they just claime newer = better it seems without actually considdering what people want their computers for, namely to run programs. comador didn't do this with their os or machines, even with compltely new hardware, going from amigar 500 to 1200. Even the big console developers are realizing that people like running their old games, hence the wii virtual consoles, virtual arcade and other such software versions of older games stil available on modern machines. Microsoft though just seem to expect everyone to update, buy their products and cope, because newer is always better in their opinion. for myself, if i could be certain all my games and other applications would work under windows 7, I'd be much less wary about updating. I just see this as a case of not listening to the customer and doing their own dam thing and expecting everyone to cope simply because they are a big fat company who just care about the prophit. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
There might be some truth in that, and as a community that wants ever more complex games ourselves, I can't blame anybody in that interchange. Better processing power = more potential for more immersive audio environments. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:21 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf You can blame the game nuts for that. The sighted like using powerfull games which need that power. As for upgrades all stuff needs to be upgraded, storage hardware, security etc. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my beef about Microsoft - Re: plans for an updated Lone Wolf
Hi ?Charles, Well, let me answer your question with a question. How do you expect them to make money if they don't continually release upgrades? It sounds to me like your question is along the lines of if it ain't broke don't fix it. While it might seem like you are paying money to do the same old things with OS that takes more memory, more CPU power, etc but I don't think you are paying attention to features or upgrades that have been added to the operating system. Let's use Windows Explorer as a simple example here. Back in Windows 98 you could not burn cds or dvds through Windows Explorer. Beginning with Windows XP you could burn data cds and music cds directly from Windows Explorer. In Windows 7 you can burn data cds, music cds, data dvds, and make video dvds by burning avi and mpg files to dvd all through Windows Explorer. My point being that we can clearly see new features like this being added to each successive version of Windows Explorer. Its really not a case of the same thing different version as a lot of other Windows programs have undergone a similar evolution. Weather you use those new features or not is really beside the point. The way I read your message is Microsoft doesn't do anything new or different from one version of Windows to the next accept make the OS more bloated, more of a memory hog, and there is nothing to ever recommend upgrading. I suppose some of what you say has some truth to it, but as I said above I think its simply a case of not taking advantage of the features and updates that are there. For instance,in Windows 7 there are a number of gadgets, little applets, you can dock to your desktop to monitor stocks and other real time information. Well, obviously if you don't follow the stock market and don't use the stock ticker gadget that would seem like a pretty useless upgrade to you personally. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who buy and trade stocks online who happen to use that little stock ticker gadget, and for them upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7 would have features they find useful in trading stocks. My point being not everything Microsoft adds to the latest Windows release will be important to you personally and it may even seem like the same thing different version, but for someone like me its really and truly not the same thing. There are a number of reasons a person might choose to upgrade weather it is bug fixes, security fixes, a new look and feel, more gadgets, additional features, whatever. It all depends on how much or how little you get out of your computer to begin with. Cheers! On 12/11/11, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Do they really have to continually upgrade the operating system and programs, making more power hogs, making us buy more powerful computers to do the same tasks we were previously doing but having to use more powerful processors and use more of the resources to do those tasks? Why can't they just leave well enough alone once they get a system that actually does what it's supposed to do? --- Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
