Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hey thanks for this Thomas, this ought to be handy as I am considering setting up my spare box as a Linux machine. It would be interesting to know if there are folks out there particularly blind ones who are just running Linux. What I tend to find with the people that I know around here who run it is that they tend to have a Linux system and a windows system or two partitions on the same system. This is because they want to run Linux when they can and they need to have windows to run a specific application or do something that can't be done very well in Linux. Now that I think of it I believe that you fall into that camp yourself if memory serves. So what if anything do you find Windows to be indispensable for? I have personally become so disgusted with Microsoft's policies and lack of quality control that when the stuff I have will no longer run I will probably be looking for a serious alternative to Windows. Best regards, Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista Hi Louis, Darragh has some very good audio podcasts on installing Linux, configuring orca, and an an introduction to the Gnome graphical desktop. His Ubuntu 8.04 step by step installation podcast is the best I have heard yet. To get his audio tutorials go to http://www.digitaldarragh.com/linuxat.asp and download the audio tutorials you think might be interesting. Cheers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi. Any guides out there for a blind person to install and use Linux? > I'd > like to get a Linux distribution running on my computer, and Oralux doesn't > seem to no longer be supported. HTH/. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Thomas, There was a new walkthrough released just last night, detailing the installation of open suse 11.0, and showing the new, accessible boot menu. Aiden - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > Hi Louis, > Darragh has some very good audio podcasts on installing Linux, > configuring orca, and an an introduction to the Gnome graphical desktop. > His Ubuntu 8.04 step by step installation podcast is the best I have > heard yet. To get his audio tutorials go to > http://www.digitaldarragh.com/linuxat.asp > and download the audio tutorials you think might be interesting. > Cheers. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Hi. Any guides out there for a blind person to install and use Linux? I'd >> like to get a Linux distribution running on my computer, and Oralux >> doesn't >> seem to no longer be supported. HTH/. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Louis, Darragh has some very good audio podcasts on installing Linux, configuring orca, and an an introduction to the Gnome graphical desktop. His Ubuntu 8.04 step by step installation podcast is the best I have heard yet. To get his audio tutorials go to http://www.digitaldarragh.com/linuxat.asp and download the audio tutorials you think might be interesting. Cheers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi. Any guides out there for a blind person to install and use Linux? I'd > like to get a Linux distribution running on my computer, and Oralux doesn't > seem to no longer be supported. HTH/. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
most stuff is writen for microsoft, and everything business has traditionally been ms. these things are hard to break. In india they are linux based. And well. At 05:19 a.m. 4/08/2008, you wrote: >Hi Trouble, >Well, what I meant to say is that I am confused as to wwhy people >continue to buy Microsoft products. Yeah, I know full well in the mid >90's up until the last few years there wasn't much of a choice. However, >that has changed now, but most people are not willing to switch even >though they know Microsoft's stuff is not very stable, and takes various >service packs and updates before it really becomes reliable. >I guess it really comes down to the common psychilogical problem we all >have is we hate change. We hate to learn something new, and you can't >teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing going on. We are creatures of >habit, and it takes something really major to change those hhabits. > >Trouble wrote: >> For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least >> in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be >> the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. >> Now we do have some what of a choice. > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
hi Louis, Go to http://www.digitaldarragh.com/linuxat.asp Hope this helps, Aiden - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > Hi. Any guides out there for a blind person to install and use Linux? I'd > like to get a Linux distribution running on my computer, and Oralux > doesn't > seem to no longer be supported. HTH/. > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 10:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > > >> Hi Trouble, >> Well, what I meant to say is that I am confused as to wwhy people >> continue to buy Microsoft products. Yeah, I know full well in the mid >> 90's up until the last few years there wasn't much of a choice. However, >> that has changed now, but most people are not willing to switch even >> though they know Microsoft's stuff is not very stable, and takes various >> service packs and updates before it really becomes reliable. >> I guess it really comes down to the common psychilogical problem we all >> have is we hate change. We hate to learn something new, and you can't >> teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing going on. We are creatures of >> habit, and it takes something really major to change those hhabits. >> >> Trouble wrote: >>> For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least >>> in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be >>> the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. >>> Now we do have some what of a choice. >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 >> 6:59 PM >> >> > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi. Any guides out there for a blind person to install and use Linux? I'd like to get a Linux distribution running on my computer, and Oralux doesn't seem to no longer be supported. HTH/. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > Hi Trouble, > Well, what I meant to say is that I am confused as to wwhy people > continue to buy Microsoft products. Yeah, I know full well in the mid > 90's up until the last few years there wasn't much of a choice. However, > that has changed now, but most people are not willing to switch even > though they know Microsoft's stuff is not very stable, and takes various > service packs and updates before it really becomes reliable. > I guess it really comes down to the common psychilogical problem we all > have is we hate change. We hate to learn something new, and you can't > teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing going on. We are creatures of > habit, and it takes something really major to change those hhabits. > > Trouble wrote: >> For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least >> in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be >> the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. >> Now we do have some what of a choice. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 > 6:59 PM > > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Trouble, Not true. Many Linux distributions such as Ubuntu are just as graphical as Windows. Both the KDE and Gnome desktops resembles MS Windows in a lot of ways.it is safe to say anyone who can use MS Windows can easily use a Linux distribution such as Ubuntu without too much of a learning curve. You click on Computer and it brings up a file explorer like My Computer, click on the Gnome application button on the main pannel and you get a start menu, click on home and you get your personal directories, etc. This stuff isn't rocket science. The mere fact you stated that Linux is mostly command line driven just proves my point how wofully uneducated people are about other operating systems, and they certainly haven't been keeping up to date with changes in technology outside of the Windows only world. Fact is all three of the major operating systems Linux, Windows, and Mac OS have about equal graphical user interfaces with screen readers that work with them. I do know there are some users, such as those on the speakup list, that still are die-hard Linux command line users. Do remember it is their choice to use a command line only environment, and not a technological reason. A Linux user such as myself can quite easily live without the command line for most things. Trouble wrote: > No, its the fact that at least 60% of the computer users are mousers, > and don't know how to type. they were taught how just did think they > would use or need it down the road. And the fact that linix is > command line mostly and that kills if for those that don't like > typing or don't spell. They get to hate that frays "Bad command or > file name, over and over". --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
No, its the fact that at least 60% of the computer users are mousers, and don't know how to type. they were taught how just did think they would use or need it down the road. And the fact that linix is command line mostly and that kills if for those that don't like typing or don't spell. They get to hate that frays "Bad command or file name, over and over". At 01:19 PM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi Trouble, >Well, what I meant to say is that I am confused as to wwhy people >continue to buy Microsoft products. Yeah, I know full well in the mid >90's up until the last few years there wasn't much of a choice. However, >that has changed now, but most people are not willing to switch even >though they know Microsoft's stuff is not very stable, and takes various >service packs and updates before it really becomes reliable. >I guess it really comes down to the common psychilogical problem we all >have is we hate change. We hate to learn something new, and you can't >teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing going on. We are creatures of >habit, and it takes something really major to change those hhabits. > >Trouble wrote: > > For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least > > in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be > > the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. > > Now we do have some what of a choice. > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 3317 (20080801) __ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com Tim trouble "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Nicol, Windows 3.1 was released around 1993. As for screen readers for 3.1 there was Jaws for Windows 1.x, Jaws 2.0, and Slimware Window Bridge. I believe the first versions of Window Eyes came out around that time as well. As for the question, "is anyone still running it," I certainly hope not. We are talking about a Windows interface that ran over MS Dos 6, and was designed for I286, I386, and I486 computers. We are talking slower than a turtle with three broken legs, and hard drives that were 100 to 500 MB if you were lucky. As far as memory goes if you had 4 MB of ram in your computer back then you were like a computer god. Most were lucky to have 1 MB ram. Grin. nicol wrote: > When was windows 3.1 released? > Is there any screen readers that worked with windows 3.1? > Are there still people who use windows 3.1 today? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
When was windows 3.1 released? Is there any screen readers that worked with windows 3.1? Are there still people who use windows 3.1 today? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:48 PM To: Charles Rivard; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista Hi Charles, It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then fix the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, dependable, and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible before they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and errors early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out there such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I must shake my head in utter confusion. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Trouble, Well, what I meant to say is that I am confused as to wwhy people continue to buy Microsoft products. Yeah, I know full well in the mid 90's up until the last few years there wasn't much of a choice. However, that has changed now, but most people are not willing to switch even though they know Microsoft's stuff is not very stable, and takes various service packs and updates before it really becomes reliable. I guess it really comes down to the common psychilogical problem we all have is we hate change. We hate to learn something new, and you can't teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing going on. We are creatures of habit, and it takes something really major to change those hhabits. Trouble wrote: > For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least > in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be > the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. > Now we do have some what of a choice. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Bryan, It sure did. I was attending Wright State University for my Computer Science degree att the time, and I can remember someone recorded it for computer and telecommunication services as a demo for next years network upgrades. Needless to say none of the CATS techs were to happy about that famous Windows 98 crash caught on national TV. As for myself I laughed my butt off. Bryan Peterson wrote: > I seem to remember that they unveiled Windows 98 and it crashed right on > National TV, although I can't remember on what program or network. I only > remember my mom telling my dad about it. It actually made me laugh. > Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
For a while the people had no choice in Microsoft products at least in ops, because they had contracts with all major manufacturers to be the op of PC's sold in stores and by dealers. Now we do have some what of a choice. At 08:47 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi Charles, >It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were >relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they >always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was >extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still >used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 >with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet >Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 >they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly >crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released >Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 >classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer >addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which >definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service >pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom >line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then fix >the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two >years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. >In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I >have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in >general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, dependable, >and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When >Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the >operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is >no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of >my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. >Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular >software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely >buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like >Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their >operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible before >they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft >stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and errors >early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out there >such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I must >shake my head in utter confusion. > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 3317 (20080801) __ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com Tim trouble "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Oh yeah. I think I remember now. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: "Trouble" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > That was the show called CNet for some it came on USA channel over cable. > > At 09:20 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >>I seem to remember that they unveiled Windows 98 and it crashed right on >>National TV, although I can't remember on what program or network. I only >>remember my mom telling my dad about it. It actually made me laugh. >>Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. >>- Original Message - >>From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "Charles Rivard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" >> >>Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:47 AM >>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista >> >> >> > Hi Charles, >> > It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were >> > relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they >> > always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was >> > extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still >> > used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 >> > with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet >> > Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 >> > they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly >> > crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released >> > Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 >> > classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer >> > addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which >> > definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service >> > pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom >> > line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then >> > fix >> > the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two >> > years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. >> > In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I >> > have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in >> > general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, >> > dependable, >> > and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When >> > Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the >> > operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is >> > no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of >> > my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. >> > Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular >> > software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely >> > buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like >> > Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their >> > operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible >> > before >> > they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft >> > stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and >> > errors >> > early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out >> > there >> > such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I >> > must >> > shake my head in utter confusion. >> > >> > --- >> > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> > list, >> > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> >> >>--- >>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >>http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >>A
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
That was the show called CNet for some it came on USA channel over cable. At 09:20 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >I seem to remember that they unveiled Windows 98 and it crashed right on >National TV, although I can't remember on what program or network. I only >remember my mom telling my dad about it. It actually made me laugh. >Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. >- Original Message - >From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Charles Rivard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" > >Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:47 AM >Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > > > > Hi Charles, > > It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were > > relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they > > always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was > > extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still > > used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 > > with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet > > Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 > > they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly > > crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released > > Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 > > classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer > > addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which > > definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service > > pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom > > line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then fix > > the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two > > years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. > > In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I > > have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in > > general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, dependable, > > and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When > > Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the > > operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is > > no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of > > my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. > > Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular > > software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely > > buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like > > Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their > > operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible before > > they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft > > stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and errors > > early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out there > > such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I must > > shake my head in utter confusion. > > > > --- > > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > > list, > > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 3317 (20080801) __ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com Tim trouble "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
I seem to remember that they unveiled Windows 98 and it crashed right on National TV, although I can't remember on what program or network. I only remember my mom telling my dad about it. It actually made me laugh. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Charles Rivard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > Hi Charles, > It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were > relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they > always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was > extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still > used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 > with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet > Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 > they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly > crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released > Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 > classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer > addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which > definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service > pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom > line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then fix > the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two > years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. > In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I > have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in > general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, dependable, > and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When > Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the > operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is > no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of > my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. > Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular > software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely > buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like > Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their > operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible before > they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft > stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and errors > early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out there > such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I must > shake my head in utter confusion. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Jason, Quote If you're planning to program for multiple platforms, you're better off with another language however. Don't be fooled, the cross platform support early on in .NET is just smoke and mirrors. End quote What do you mean it is just smoke and mirrors? I'm using Mono 2 for Ubuntu Linux and the applications I am writing using it are very compatible with .NET Framework 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 for Windows. I have written a handful of .NET applications that work very well both on Linux and Windows without major changes in the application source code. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Charles, It would be nice if Microsoft waited until their Windows releases were relatively stable before release, but their history has proven they always do otherwise. In 1995 Microsoft launched Windows 95 which was extremely unstable, was well known for major system crashes, and still used the Dos fat16 file system. In 1997 Microsoft rereleased Windows 95 with fat32 file system support, several bug fixes, an upgraded Internet Explorer, and generally was much more stable and dependable. In 1998 they launched Windows 98. Like 95 it had several bugs, constantly crashed, and was not a stable release. In 1999 Microsoft released Windows 98 SE which addressed and largely fixed bugs and issues in 98 classic. In 2001 MS released Windows XP which had many issues that wer addressed in service pack 1. In 2007 Microsoft released Vista which definitely had many bugs that took them a year to correct in service pack 1, and still not all of the issues have been fixed yet. Bottom line Microsoft is well known for rushing software releases, and then fix the products the best they can at some later point. Usually one or two years of extra work would have produced a solid and stable release. In fact, Microsoft's lack of software quality control is one reason I have stopped recommending, supporting, and buying their products. in general. When Apple released OS Leopard it was a rock solid, dependable, and powerful os with none of the bugs we see in Windows Vista. When Ubuntu released Ubuntu Linux 8.04 I haven't found many bugs in the operating system itself. Orca sometimes crashes unexpectedly, but it is no problem to restart Orca and continue on my way. I don't lose all of my data like I often do in Vista when the entire os crashes. Bottom line here is that Microsoft is this huge, well known, popular software company who is allowed to repeatedly to sell extremely buggy,unstable, and undependable software products. Everyone else like Apple, Ubuntu Linux, Sun Solaris, etc do their best to make their operating systems stable, dependable, and as bug free as possible before they are released to the general public. Why everyone buys Microsoft stuff when they fail time and time again to address stability and errors early on is a mystery. There are more stable operating systems out there such as Mac OS Leopard, but the general public pays them no mind. I must shake my head in utter confusion. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Claudio, I don't know. There are a lot of development similarities between games for the XBox 360 and Windows Vista/Windows 7. They both use XNA, they both use the .NET Framework, and the both are a type of Winhdows platform. One major diference is that the XBox games are designed with XInput game controllers for the XBox and the PC versions obviously use keyboards and mice. So in order to run a XBox 360 game on Windows you would probably have to have an XBox 360 game controller hooked up to your PC. Since I don't writeXBox 360 games I don't know what is involved in making games for the XBox other than the libraries that are used on the XBox. Claudio wrote: > Hello Thomas! > Is it also possible to play XBoxGames on windows 7? > Regards, > Claudio. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Munawar, Well, from a programming standpoint DirectSound was replaced by XAudio2 in the March 2008 DirectX SDK, and DirectSound was placed in the deprecated list of development libraries for DirectX. What this means for developers like you and I DirectSound will likely be kept in the runtime releases for XP/Vista/Win 7 for backward compatibility purposes, but future DirectSound development is scheduled to be removed from the SDK as soon as XAudio2 gets wider adoption by software developers. As for the diferences between XNA and DirectSound it does depend on if you are using the managed XNA Framework or the unmanaged C++ libraries. If you are using the unmanaged XAudio2 library for C++ developers then it offers something similar to DirectSound. However, if you use the XNA Framework for Managed .NET developers then you are getting an extremely watered down SDK, and it doesn't have anything close to DirectSound features yet. In fact, your point about being watered down is the primary reason Microsoft added XAudio2 to the March 2008 SDK. Apparently many mainstream game developers complained about XAudio for their PC games, wanting something like DirectSound, so Microsoft added XAudio2 which is now a core part of the DirectX/XNA API for C++ developers. If you read all the release notes for DirectX it is pretty evident Microsoft is redesigning DirectX, and XAudio2 is going to be a core part of Windows 7, and DirectSound will likely be their for backward compatibility purposes only. That is my take on it. Munawar Bijani wrote: > Hi, > Is XNA really replacing DirectX in Windows 7? As far as I've heard about > XNA--I haven't fiddled with the API at all--is that it lacks the powerful > DirectSound capabilities because it's cross platform between Windows and > XBOX; since XBOX isn't a full computing system, XNA had to be watered down > to make it run on XBOX. As we know all too well, the limiting agent is the > component that determines how much solution can be made. So if XNA really is > replacing DirectX in Windows 7, that could mean bad news for developers. > Munawar A. Bijani > Are you certain you will awaken from bed tomorrow? > Never assume something of which you lack strong knowledge. > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.bpcprograms.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Kevin, Thanks, I didn't think that there were games like Puppy1 or Homer on a Harley out there. Other than Monopoly version 8 Puppy1 and Homer on a Harley were my last two projects. So at least I am trying to give us new, exciting and different games to play. BFN - Original Message - Hi, I never heard from a game like homer on a harley like. And Puppy1? I really don't know. Kevin -- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.weisi4u.de Klango-Blog: http://kevinweisi.klango.net Klango-Username: kevinweisi Skype: Foerbye1996 Yahoo: kevinweisi MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 424-263-367 AIM: weispfennigkevin Handy: 0177 83 37 034 Podcast: http://weisi4u.podspot.de Podcast per Telefon: 0931 66 399 34 88 mailingliste: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailinglisten-Homepage: http://ml4free.de/mailman/listinfo/weisi4u Jim Blue Ribbon Turkey = A Pabst Blue Ribbon beer and a shot of Wild Turkey bourbon. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
hi Least when apple release an OS they get it right, I happy I no longer use windows anymore it a waste of time lol On 3 Aug 2008, at 03:13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Based on their past releases, shouldn't they just wait until 2012 > and get it > right the first time rather than rushing it as they always seem to > do? I > know that service packs and patches usually clear up a lot of > issues, and > maybe those issues did not crop up during testing and such, but they > sure > have sold garbage, only to have to clear up problems later. I have > seen > games for the blind being sold that, for the most part, run fairly > well when > they are first made available to us because, in part, the beta > testing, and > in part, the work that went into them before testers even started. > The time > should be taken to get things right the first time, or at least > close. This > goes for any product. Customers will remember. > > --- > Pretty is as pretty does > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 7:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > > >> Hi Kevin, >> Well, Microsoft's best estimates say Windows 7 will be released in >> late >> 2010. Although, if they encounter issues, bugs, whatever they may >> push >> the release date back into 2011. >> Given ssuch a short development cycle between Vista and Windows 7 it >> sounds to me like Windows 7 is basically going to be a service >> release >> of Windows. That means it it will be Vista with patches and a >> slightly >> modified user interface. No big deal. >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > . > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of > the list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi guys. I'm developing my RPG in XNA using .NET 3.5. As a developer, fighting change is pointless. You're better off embracing the new technology because it's only going to get progressively worse the longer you resist. DirectX has given way to XNA and XNA is a marvelous technology. If you're planning to program for multiple platforms, you're better off with another language however. Don't be fooled, the cross platform support early on in .NET is just smoke and mirrors. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Based on their past releases, shouldn't they just wait until 2012 and get it right the first time rather than rushing it as they always seem to do? I know that service packs and patches usually clear up a lot of issues, and maybe those issues did not crop up during testing and such, but they sure have sold garbage, only to have to clear up problems later. I have seen games for the blind being sold that, for the most part, run fairly well when they are first made available to us because, in part, the beta testing, and in part, the work that went into them before testers even started. The time should be taken to get things right the first time, or at least close. This goes for any product. Customers will remember. --- Pretty is as pretty does - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista > Hi Kevin, > Well, Microsoft's best estimates say Windows 7 will be released in late > 2010. Although, if they encounter issues, bugs, whatever they may push > the release date back into 2011. > Given ssuch a short development cycle between Vista and Windows 7 it > sounds to me like Windows 7 is basically going to be a service release > of Windows. That means it it will be Vista with patches and a slightly > modified user interface. No big deal. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hello Thomas! Is it also possible to play XBoxGames on windows 7? Regards, Claudio. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi, Is XNA really replacing DirectX in Windows 7? As far as I've heard about XNA--I haven't fiddled with the API at all--is that it lacks the powerful DirectSound capabilities because it's cross platform between Windows and XBOX; since XBOX isn't a full computing system, XNA had to be watered down to make it run on XBOX. As we know all too well, the limiting agent is the component that determines how much solution can be made. So if XNA really is replacing DirectX in Windows 7, that could mean bad news for developers. Munawar A. Bijani Are you certain you will awaken from bed tomorrow? Never assume something of which you lack strong knowledge. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bpcprograms.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Demetry Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 9:18 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista The windows 7 will come out in 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Kevin, Well, no one knows for sure what all is planned for Windows 7. Many of the people working on the Win 7 project are under signed non-disclosure agreements and are very hesitant to offer detailed information at this time. My own information is based on stuff I have picked up in reading various Microsoft development forums, and whatever has been leaked to the software developers in interest of getting stuff Windows 7 ready. Like, for example, on the DirectX mailing liss Microsoft MVP's are now urging mainstream game companies to begin phasing out DirectSound and begin supporting XAudio or XAudio2. They are asking developers to drop Direct3D 9 and begin adopting Direct3D 10 standards. Microsoft is not just blowing smoke here. They are urging these changes so the next generation of Windows based video games will be compatible withthe XBox 360 and Windows 7 platforms. Windows 7 is going to have a much closer compatibility with the Microsoft XBox consoles than previous versions of Windows and is one reason so many technology changes are taking place right now. Another major change is that Windows 7 is going to use a lot more .NET technologies than previous versions of Windows. It shouldn't be a huge surprise as we all saw this coming years ago. Anyone in the development community who was paying attention could clearly see that the .NET Framework and its new languages like C++.NET, C#.NET, and VB.NET could see this was sooner or later going to be the software development standard for Windows and Windows Mobile devices. Older technologies like VB 6 are simply no longer needed because VB.NET is all around a better language, is a proven technology, and Windows 7 is now making it the standard for Windows based applications. It is time for developers to play catch up if they want to forge ahead into the future. As far as other specific changes we will have to wait and see until more information is made available. Obviously, there will be the usual updates like a new version of Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, larger driver database, several bug fixes, new icons/artwork, etc. From what I have been hearing Windows 7 is primarily like service release, but we will just have to wait and see if they and anything special. I am guessing if they do have anything major planned for Windows 7 they are keeping it under wraps. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Kevin, Well, Microsoft's best estimates say Windows 7 will be released in late 2010. Although, if they encounter issues, bugs, whatever they may push the release date back into 2011. Given ssuch a short development cycle between Vista and Windows 7 it sounds to me like Windows 7 is basically going to be a service release of Windows. That means it it will be Vista with patches and a slightly modified user interface. No big deal. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi And what want to be the new features? Kevin -- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.weisi4u.de Klango-Blog: http://kevinweisi.klango.net Klango-Username: kevinweisi Skype: Foerbye1996 Yahoo: kevinweisi MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 424-263-367 AIM: weispfennigkevin Handy: 0177 83 37 034 Podcast: http://weisi4u.podspot.de Podcast per Telefon: 0931 66 399 34 88 mailingliste: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailinglisten-Homepage: http://ml4free.de/mailman/listinfo/weisi4u --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
The windows 7 will come out in 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi, When cames the newst windows version out? Kevin -- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.weisi4u.de Klango-Blog: http://kevinweisi.klango.net Klango-Username: kevinweisi Skype: Foerbye1996 Yahoo: kevinweisi MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 424-263-367 AIM: weispfennigkevin Handy: 0177 83 37 034 Podcast: http://weisi4u.podspot.de Podcast per Telefon: 0931 66 399 34 88 mailingliste: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailinglisten-Homepage: http://ml4free.de/mailman/listinfo/weisi4u --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Shaun, Well, it is my experience most blind users will hang on to their XP and Vista machines for several years yet. Just because Windows 7 is bringing in a bunch of new changes it won't spell the end of blind audio gaming, because blind computer users have always been slow to change to the latest software releases. Part of it is lack of money and part is simply feeling no need to change when what they have is working fine already. Some of the developers such as myself have been looking at what we can do to prepare for changes in technology trends. As for myself I am currently working with C-Sharp and the .NET 2.0 platform since it is universally supported on Mac, Linux, and Windows. I also have decided to drop DirectX and XNA altogether and use SDL.NET as an alternative. It just may be that open source technologies will prove more stable than commercial APIs driven by Microsoft's desire to make everything compatible with the XBox 360. Also do remember some game companies like 7128 are using Java as their core game language. I suspect their games will work fine on Windows 7 as it is Sun's job to make sure the Java runtime specifications run correctly on Windows 7 while at the same time making sure the same Java application runs the same on every operating system Java is supported on. What I am saying is some day the VB 6 programers that wish to write games specifically for Windows 7 will need to change the APIs and programming languages they use. I suspect most will switch to something like VB 2008 and SDL.NET which works very nicely together. Though, I haven't been able to write something quite as complex as Shades of Doom using SDL as there are some limitations in 3d audio support in SDL right now. I am hoping to write a 3d wrapper for the pan controls to at least fake it. Smile. shaun everiss wrote: > you'd think so. > Unfortunately most devs, excluding the new ones that have come in the last > year or 2 and even then some of those including the old ones use old tech. > Some are trying to upgrade others are not bothered to do that right now and > others can't be bothered at all. > Its the nature of the beast. > We have been able to use old tech for ages and we can see no point of > changing it. > ANd if we are forced to, we generally find ways to well do that lagit or > otherwise. > But if the libs go, well it will get harder and harder for the stuff to go on. > Much of the reason that the old guys have not been left in the dust is there > are vary few newbys round that are willing to start from the ground up in > some of the advanced languages and new tech. > I am not taking this out on any dev rather am using the general mood of the > list over the years. > Its my opinion that we will never be quite ahead with the tech that exists. > Understandable but still. > So what is the worse that can happen? > Well a load of companies will either have to upgrade or dissapear alltogether. > I have invisioned sometime dreamed about what the blind gaming industry would > be in 100 years. > Then I think of the freenet revolution. > Companies thinking of having free networks for the internet, etc. > The moddel didn't work, additional costs and other things made it really a > non proffit thing probably costing more than it should or could and no way to > recoop even with payed support, adds, etc. > I think there is a danger that blind gaming will die all together if > something is not done and soon. > Ok I aggree that in the shortfall we may see a reduction but unless something > happens soon well no gaming market. > its not really a money maker most should know this by now. > In the short term there may be a way with older hardware and coppys of old > oses, ebay and other things, I hope myself to buy large quantities of systems > at some stage so I can still use things. > However xp drivers will not come as readily as needed and new drivers for new > hardware, well good luck for that now. > So we are left with old hardware. > That means that its eventually going to get almost impossible to get it. > I have a couple systems meaning I probably can continue for a number of years. > If I play my cards right i probably can get an old desktop I have with the > required system loaded on it. > But that is not going to last me all my life, well it may do but still. > So at some point something will have to give or we will have to do something. > Truth is we don't need much to crash the entire market. > We don't get much stimulation, I mean when has the last game come out which > is not the same as all the others and when one has how long has it all lasted. > I hoped that we would manage to get longside the sighted gaming industry but > that may never happen. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_au
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi, I never heard from a game like homer on a harley like. And Puppy1? I really don't know. Kevin -- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.weisi4u.de Klango-Blog: http://kevinweisi.klango.net Klango-Username: kevinweisi Skype: Foerbye1996 Yahoo: kevinweisi MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 424-263-367 AIM: weispfennigkevin Handy: 0177 83 37 034 Podcast: http://weisi4u.podspot.de Podcast per Telefon: 0931 66 399 34 88 mailingliste: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailinglisten-Homepage: http://ml4free.de/mailman/listinfo/weisi4u --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Shaun, I'm just curious, what games are Puppy1 like? and what games are Homer on a Harley like? Thanks - Original Message - you'd think so. Unfortunately most devs, excluding the new ones that have come in the last year or 2 and even then some of those including the old ones use old tech. Some are trying to upgrade others are not bothered to do that right now and others can't be bothered at all. Its the nature of the beast. We have been able to use old tech for ages and we can see no point of changing it. ANd if we are forced to, we generally find ways to well do that lagit or otherwise. But if the libs go, well it will get harder and harder for the stuff to go on. Much of the reason that the old guys have not been left in the dust is there are vary few newbys round that are willing to start from the ground up in some of the advanced languages and new tech. I am not taking this out on any dev rather am using the general mood of the list over the years. Its my opinion that we will never be quite ahead with the tech that exists. Understandable but still. So what is the worse that can happen? Well a load of companies will either have to upgrade or dissapear alltogether. I have invisioned sometime dreamed about what the blind gaming industry would be in 100 years. Then I think of the freenet revolution. Companies thinking of having free networks for the internet, etc. The moddel didn't work, additional costs and other things made it really a non proffit thing probably costing more than it should or could and no way to recoop even with payed support, adds, etc. I think there is a danger that blind gaming will die all together if something is not done and soon. Ok I aggree that in the shortfall we may see a reduction but unless something happens soon well no gaming market. its not really a money maker most should know this by now. In the short term there may be a way with older hardware and coppys of old oses, ebay and other things, I hope myself to buy large quantities of systems at some stage so I can still use things. However xp drivers will not come as readily as needed and new drivers for new hardware, well good luck for that now. So we are left with old hardware. That means that its eventually going to get almost impossible to get it. I have a couple systems meaning I probably can continue for a number of years. If I play my cards right i probably can get an old desktop I have with the required system loaded on it. But that is not going to last me all my life, well it may do but still. So at some point something will have to give or we will have to do something. Truth is we don't need much to crash the entire market. We don't get much stimulation, I mean when has the last game come out which is not the same as all the others and when one has how long has it all lasted. I hoped that we would manage to get longside the sighted gaming industry but that may never happen. Jim If it doesn't say Kitchen's Inc on it. Someone else made it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
you'd think so. Unfortunately most devs, excluding the new ones that have come in the last year or 2 and even then some of those including the old ones use old tech. Some are trying to upgrade others are not bothered to do that right now and others can't be bothered at all. Its the nature of the beast. We have been able to use old tech for ages and we can see no point of changing it. ANd if we are forced to, we generally find ways to well do that lagit or otherwise. But if the libs go, well it will get harder and harder for the stuff to go on. Much of the reason that the old guys have not been left in the dust is there are vary few newbys round that are willing to start from the ground up in some of the advanced languages and new tech. I am not taking this out on any dev rather am using the general mood of the list over the years. Its my opinion that we will never be quite ahead with the tech that exists. Understandable but still. So what is the worse that can happen? Well a load of companies will either have to upgrade or dissapear alltogether. I have invisioned sometime dreamed about what the blind gaming industry would be in 100 years. Then I think of the freenet revolution. Companies thinking of having free networks for the internet, etc. The moddel didn't work, additional costs and other things made it really a non proffit thing probably costing more than it should or could and no way to recoop even with payed support, adds, etc. I think there is a danger that blind gaming will die all together if something is not done and soon. Ok I aggree that in the shortfall we may see a reduction but unless something happens soon well no gaming market. its not really a money maker most should know this by now. In the short term there may be a way with older hardware and coppys of old oses, ebay and other things, I hope myself to buy large quantities of systems at some stage so I can still use things. However xp drivers will not come as readily as needed and new drivers for new hardware, well good luck for that now. So we are left with old hardware. That means that its eventually going to get almost impossible to get it. I have a couple systems meaning I probably can continue for a number of years. If I play my cards right i probably can get an old desktop I have with the required system loaded on it. But that is not going to last me all my life, well it may do but still. So at some point something will have to give or we will have to do something. Truth is we don't need much to crash the entire market. We don't get much stimulation, I mean when has the last game come out which is not the same as all the others and when one has how long has it all lasted. I hoped that we would manage to get longside the sighted gaming industry but that may never happen. At 01:23 p.m. 2/08/2008, you wrote: >Tom: You wrote: "Also for us programmers they are of course going to be >removing many of >the older libraries that have been around for ages, that are no longer >needed, and are replacing them with the updated .NET Framework, XNA is >going to basically replace DirectX as the core gaming API, and various >other changes that are available for Vista, but weren't necessarily >ready to ship with Vista last year. For example the XAudio2 library was >just released this year, and now officially replaces DirectSound in >Windows 7, but was in development and testing stages when Vista hit the >seen.So DirectSound was used instead on Vista." > >Is this a good thing for designers of games for the blind and for players of >such games? Thanks. > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Windows 7 versus Vista
Hi Charles, Like anything else it is a double edged sword. In terms of technology improvements XAudio2 has many advantages over DirectSound such as better 3d audio support, the ability to load and play wma files as well as wav files, etc. However, for the several games still using DirectSound 8 such as GMA's Games, Jim Kitchen's games, BSC's games, etc it is going to hurt them since DirectSound backward compatible libs may not be in the final Windows 7 release. I am hoping they offer some sort of older DirectX DirectSound compatibility, but we won't know for sure until Win 7 comes out. Besides that VB 6 support is totally gone from Windows 7. The XNA stuff is only supported through C++ and the .NET languages. If they are still using something like VB 6 they have no access to the XNA libraries. Which is another reason why these changes are bad for audio game programmers. As for myself I am now looking to the open source community for alternatives to XNA and DirectX. I am currently working on incorperating SDL.NET 6.1.0 into all of my current game projects. It is actually light years easier to program with than either Microsoft game APIs, and I like the fact I can use it to make games for Mac and Linux as well as Windows. Charles Rivard wrote: > Tom: You wrote: "Also for us programmers they are of course going to be > removing many of > the older libraries that have been around for ages, that are no longer > needed, and are replacing them with the updated .NET Framework, XNA is > going to basically replace DirectX as the core gaming API, and various > other changes that are available for Vista, but weren't necessarily > ready to ship with Vista last year. For example the XAudio2 library was > just released this year, and now officially replaces DirectSound in > Windows 7, but was in development and testing stages when Vista hit the > seen.So DirectSound was used instead on Vista." > > Is this a good thing for designers of games for the blind and for players of > such games? Thanks. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
