[i18n] Internationalization project
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the ultimate goal. So, in summary, the organization of the project would be: 1. code common to both (1) and (2) 1.1 code This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code to do comparisons between translations 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc) 1.1.2 Java 1.1.2.1 source code 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers) 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases) 2.1 code This would include the code to generate
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
-1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the ultimate goal. So, in summary, the organization of the project would be: 1. code common to both (1) and (2) 1.1 code This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code to do comparisons between translations 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc) 1.1.2
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both inside and outside. andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground. - robert On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to
cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs/site elsewhere.xml
tetsuya 2003/07/14 16:38:51 Modified:docs index.html docs/site elsewhere.html xdocsindex.xml xdocs/site elsewhere.xml Log: the Apache Maven 1.0 beta 10 Released Revision ChangesPath 1.268 +1 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html Index: index.html === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v retrieving revision 1.267 retrieving revision 1.268 diff -u -r1.267 -r1.268 --- index.html14 Jul 2003 23:10:43 - 1.267 +++ index.html14 Jul 2003 23:38:51 - 1.268 @@ -236,6 +236,7 @@ h4Other news from a href=site/news.htmlJakarta/a and a href=site/elsewhere.htmlElsewhere/a/h4 ul +lia href=site/elsewhere.html#20030714.114 July 2003 - bApache Maven 1.0 beta10/b Released/a/li lia href=site/elsewhere.html#20030709.109 July 2003 - bApache HTTPD WebServer 2.0.47/b Released/a/li lia href=site/news.html#20030708.108 July 2003 - bJakarta Newsletter Issue 9/b Released/a/li lia href=site/news.html#20030702.202 July 2003 - bJakarta Commons/b featured in OnJava article, open source conference and (forthcoming) book/a/li 1.54 +16 -1 jakarta-site2/docs/site/elsewhere.html Index: elsewhere.html === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/site/elsewhere.html,v retrieving revision 1.53 retrieving revision 1.54 diff -u -r1.53 -r1.54 --- elsewhere.html9 Jul 2003 12:19:10 - 1.53 +++ elsewhere.html14 Jul 2003 23:38:51 - 1.54 @@ -178,7 +178,22 @@ /td/tr trtd blockquote -a name=20030709.1 +a name=20030714.1 +h314 Jul 2003 - Apache Maven 1.0 beta10 released/h3/a +p + The Apache Software Foundation and the Apache Maven Team are + pleased to announce the Apache Maven 1.0 beta10. +/p +p + You can download the Maven 1.0 beta from + a href=http://maven.apache.org/builds/release/1.0-beta-10/;http://maven.apache.org/builds/release/1.0-beta-10//a. +/p +p +See a href=http://maven.apache.org/;The Apache Maven Home Page/a +for more details. +/p +hr size=1 noshade=noshade / +a name=20030709.1 h309 Jul 2003 - Apache Httpd WebServer 2.0.47 released/h3/a p The Apache Software Foundation and the Apache HTTP Server Project are 1.215 +1 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml Index: index.xml === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v retrieving revision 1.214 retrieving revision 1.215 diff -u -r1.214 -r1.215 --- index.xml 14 Jul 2003 23:04:37 - 1.214 +++ index.xml 14 Jul 2003 23:38:51 - 1.215 @@ -61,6 +61,7 @@ h4Other news from a href=site/news.htmlJakarta/a and a href=site/elsewhere.htmlElsewhere/a/h4 ul +lia href=site/elsewhere.html#20030714.114 July 2003 - bApache Maven 1.0 beta10/b Released/a/li lia href=site/elsewhere.html#20030709.109 July 2003 - bApache HTTPD WebServer 2.0.47/b Released/a/li lia href=site/news.html#20030708.108 July 2003 - bJakarta Newsletter Issue 9/b Released/a/li lia href=site/news.html#20030702.202 July 2003 - bJakarta Commons/b featured in OnJava article, open source conference and (forthcoming) book/a/li 1.29 +18 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/elsewhere.xml Index: elsewhere.xml === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/elsewhere.xml,v retrieving revision 1.28 retrieving revision 1.29 diff -u -r1.28 -r1.29 --- elsewhere.xml 9 Jul 2003 12:19:11 - 1.28 +++ elsewhere.xml 14 Jul 2003 23:38:51 - 1.29 @@ -10,6 +10,24 @@ body section name=Elsewhere ... + +a name=20030714.1 +h314 Jul 2003 - Apache Maven 1.0 beta10 released/h3/a +p + The Apache Software Foundation and the Apache Maven Team are + pleased to announce the Apache Maven 1.0 beta10. +/p +p + You can download the Maven 1.0 beta from + a href=http://maven.apache.org/builds/release/1.0-beta-10/;http://maven.apache.org/builds/release/1.0-beta-10//a. +/p +p +See a href='http://maven.apache.org/'The
cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs/site mail2.xml
tetsuya 2003/07/14 18:38:18 Modified:docs/site mail2.html xdocs/site mail2.xml Log: Pigeonholed the Jakarta-Related-Projects' Mailing List: DB-OJB, Apache James: etc Revision ChangesPath 1.114 +63 -19jakarta-site2/docs/site/mail2.html Index: mail2.html === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/site/mail2.html,v retrieving revision 1.113 retrieving revision 1.114 diff -u -r1.113 -r1.114 --- mail2.html5 Jul 2003 07:37:07 - 1.113 +++ mail2.html15 Jul 2003 01:38:18 - 1.114 @@ -401,9 +401,10 @@ bImportant/b pSince there are multiple projects in commons, please add [iprojectname/i] at the beginning of the subject./p p -bThe Commons User List/bbr / +bThe Jakarta Commons User List/bbr / bMedium Traffic/b -a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a a href=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/Archive/a /p p @@ -411,7 +412,7 @@ ask questions, share knowledge, and discuss issues related to using those commons projects. /p p -bThe Commons Developer List/bbr / +bThe Jakarta Commons Developer List/bbr / bHigh Traffic/b a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a @@ -427,7 +428,7 @@ /a. /p p -bThe Commons HttpClient Developer List/bbr / +bThe Jakarta Commons HttpClient Developer List/bbr / bHigh Traffic/b a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a @@ -543,12 +544,51 @@ trtd blockquote p -bThe James Developer/User List/bbr / -James mailing lists have moved, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for users of James) is now [EMAIL PROTECTED] subscribe with [EMAIL PROTECTED] br / [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for developers and contributors) is now [EMAIL PROTECTED] subscribe with [EMAIL PROTECTED] br / -There is also [EMAIL PROTECTED] for general discussions relating to the project (not code or user issues) subscribe with [EMAIL PROTECTED]br / -For more information, see the a href=http://james.apache.org/;Apache James Project/a website. +bThe Apache James (Server) User List/bbr / +bLow Traffic/b +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a +a href=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ +Archive/a +/p +p +This is the list where users of the Apache James (Server) meet and discuss +issues. Developers are also expected to be lurking on this list to +offer support to users of the Apache James (Server). +/p +p +bThe Apache James (Server) Developer List/bbr / +bLow Traffic/b +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a +a href=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ +Archive/a +/p +p +This is the list where participating developers of the the Apache James +Package meet and discuss issues, code changes/additions, +etc. Subscribers to this list get notices of each and every code +change, build results, testing notices, etc. bDo not send mail to +this list with usage questions or configuration problems/b -- +that's what [EMAIL PROTECTED] is for. +/p +p +bThe Apache James General List/bbr / +bLow Traffic/b +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a +a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a +!-- a href=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ +Archive/a -- +/p +p +This is the list for general discussions relating to the project +(not code or user issues). +/p +p +bNote:/b Jakarta-James project had outgrown to the Apache James +Project, TLP (Top Level Project) in Apache.Org. For more information, +see the a href=http://james.apache.org/;the Apache James Project/a +website. /p /blockquote /p @@ -781,11 +821,11 @@ trtd blockquote p -bThe OJB User List/bbr / +bThe OJB (DB) User List/bbr / bMedium Traffic/b -a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe/a -a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe/a -a
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
In my plan this gets delayed until Tetsuya qualifies for membership ;-) -Andy On 7/14/03 4:37 PM, robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both inside and outside. andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground. - robert On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages,