Re: ASPizer

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 10/18/01 3:18 AM, "Ranjit Mathew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
>   It's somewhat sad that this discussion has degenerated
> into a flamefest, rife with personal attacks and orificial
> metaphors.

Made me actually make a separate folder and rule for general@
 
[SNIP]

> 
> No, that was not intended as a ":-P" - I just think
> that we as developers should try to get rid of our
> NIH afflictions and try to reuse and share as much
> of our code as possible - only then can we get out
> of the tar-pit that is WebApp development as it is
> today.

This stuff sounds great!  Put it up somewhere with an open-source license so
we all can get a look-see.

That's going to be first step for any move to open-source, I think - putting
it out there for people to look at and play with.  Then you have a chance of
getting a community together.  From what I read, you don't have one now in
the way we think of it.

The question, as I see it, is not if the people that work there for THBS
will support it, but will independent people spend their time and energy on
it...  You can only find out by trying.

If you want to keep it at arms length, try sourceforge, although it sounds
like you have the resources to host it yourself.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.



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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> Sam,
>
> I have integrated the changes that you suggested, please take a look.
>
>

+1 on the proposal

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Jon Stevens]

Sam,

I have integrated the changes that you suggested, please take a look.



-jon



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RE: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

Thanks to all the people who came up with helpful suggestions, we'll be
looking into our options.

Paul.

> -Original Message-
> From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: ASPizer
>
>
> I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I
> think the move
> to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action.
>
> If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source
> licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious.
>
> If your OS project is a success well and good, if you can find some
> champions at Apache then thats cool too. If it fails, and no one will
> support you then at least you gave it your best shot.
>
> Either way you *still* have that product, its the rest of us who
> don't but I
> can't imagine Apache folks adopting a project without picking it to bits
> first. Look at the quality of the projects running now, in terms of
> engineering, design, and vision they are by and large second to none.
>
> (just my 2c)
> d.
>
>
>
> > so - do it!
> > create a new project at source force and pick a license.
> > (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release
> > the code
> > again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.)
> >
> > i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're
> > code.
>
>
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RE: ASPizer

[Danny Angus]

I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move
to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action.

If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source
licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious.

If your OS project is a success well and good, if you can find some
champions at Apache then thats cool too. If it fails, and no one will
support you then at least you gave it your best shot.

Either way you *still* have that product, its the rest of us who don't but I
can't imagine Apache folks adopting a project without picking it to bits
first. Look at the quality of the projects running now, in terms of
engineering, design, and vision they are by and large second to none.

(just my 2c)
d.



> so - do it!
> create a new project at source force and pick a license.
> (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release
> the code
> again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.)
>
> i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're
> code.


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Re: ASPizer

[robert burrell donkin]

On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 08:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew wrote:

> Coming to the issues raised in Jon's document and
> elsewhere on this thread, I must tell you that this
> has been a closed-source project so far with no
> external developer community to speak of. It is still
> being actively developed and improved upon though, and
> as Paul points out, will be for quite some time to
> come.


anybody can donate code to the Apache Software Foundation simply by 
creating code under The Apache Software License.

but apache is more than a license.
it's a way of open source development.

there are open source projects whose development process is pretty much 
closed.
the developers are a tight knit bunch and run their project more or less 
like commercial software development.
the source might be open but the development process and the general 
project direction arn't.

that's not how it is here at apache.
development is done very much in the open.
changes are argued about in public on public lists.
(a bit like this, i guess)
sometimes people get angry and leave.
decisions are not cooked up in private.
directions and designs are decided by election.


>  We sincerely feel that the J2EE developer community
> will definitely benefit from such a solution.
>
> The "itches" that bothered us in our assignments are
> certainly those that are faced by most J2EE developers
> and sooner or later there will appear appropriate "scratches" -
> here or elsewhere. Why not use this as a starting point
> rather than starting from scratch? (Unintended pun!)

you've persuaded me (at least) that you have enough commercial reasons for 
THBS to want to open source ASPizer.

so - do it!
create a new project at source force and pick a license.
(if you retain the original copyright then you can always release the code 
again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.)

i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're 
code.

- robert

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Re: ASPizer

[robert burrell donkin]

On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 07:48 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:

> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
> of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
> Incredible.

rejecting jboss was probably good (in the long term) for everybody.
jboss is stronger from having to support multiple servlet containers.

the success of jboss is really a vindication of the jakarta decision.

- robert

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Re: ASPizer

[Daniel Rall]

"Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go
> under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would
> leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing
> to support it.
>
> However, a commitment from the developers of the project themselves might be
> much more reassuring.

Well said, Fernandez.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Ceki Gulcu]

> Jon Stevens wrote:
> >
> > Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not
> linked
> > it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1
> votes
> > from the PMC.
> >
> > 
> >
> > I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits
> from
> > PMC members.
> 
> Comment on the proposal itself: the Project Management Committee bylaws
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html) clearly state that
> "Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 vote of the PMC."

Sorry, I did not catch that previously. IMHO, the 3/4 requirement
should be maintained.

> Furthermore, the still unratified proposal guidelines
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html)  state that "It is preferred
> but not required that at least one PMC member be a Committer to a new
> subproject".  We need to reconcile these two proposals.

An alternative requirement should be that there must be a PMC member
who is willing to champion the project and no PMC member who is
opposed to it. This requirement is inspired by the "Identify the
Champion" pattern. 

See http://iamwww.unibe.ch/~oscar/Champion/champion.html for details.

Requiring two active developpers might be somewhat artificial. IMHO,
it is often better to have a single developper who is totally
committed to a project than 20 lukewarm developers. On the other hand,
2 is obviously better than 1. Ceki


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not
linked
> it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1
votes
> from the PMC.
>
> 
>
> I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits
from
> PMC members.

Comment on the proposal itself: the Project Management Committee bylaws
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html) clearly state that
"Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 vote of the PMC."

Furthermore, the still unratified proposal guidelines
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html)  state that "It is preferred
but not required that at least one PMC member be a Committer to a new
subproject".  We need to reconcile these two proposals.

Finally, the proposal also suggests that the vote that you are proposing
should also require a supermajority.

Ted: can you take a quick glance at the proposal that you have been
sheperding to ensure that it is current and up to date in your opinion, and
(if so) put it up for a vote?

- Sam Ruby


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RE: ASPizer

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Title: RE: ASPizer





Hi Paul!


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 18 de octubre de 2001 0:43
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: RE: ASPizer


> > How can you commit to backing a project over the long term 
> if your company
> > can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, 
> what interest
> > will you have in developing this project over the long term?
> 
> We have a viable consulting company, and we make money. The product
> development is something we have done when we see a need in 
> the market, but
> we have no reliance on income from it. We had hoped to sell 
> ASPizer through
> a partnership with a major software company, but that fell 
> through. At this
> point, we don't feel that we can afford to hire a software 
> sales staff and
> build a software company around it. As a result of this, we 
> are interested
> in building a market through open source. We can afford to maintain a
> certain level of development on this product, and are willing 
> to do so. I'm
> not sure how you expect us to prove that, though.


IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing to support it.

However, a commitment from the developers of the project themselves might be much more reassuring.


> > How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS
> > license yet
> > so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even 
> consider it?
> 
> Sorry, but I'm pretty new to the whole open source approach. 
> We can look
> into other options and see what the best way to do this is. We're not
> looking to dump something on anyone.


Un saludo,


Alex. 

Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/18/01 12:18 AM, "Ranjit Mathew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
> verbatim in your document "New Project Proposals"
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and

#1. It is a quote made in a public forum.
#2. I also used a quote from Sam and several other references to other
conversations today.
#3. What exactly is the problem with quoting him?

> put several not-so-obvious-to-a-newbie references
> to this thread into the document.

Removed.

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/18/01 12:41 AM, "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You should remove the last paragraph, otherwise +1.

Done.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 08:48 18.10.2001 +0200, you wrote:

>| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
>| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
>| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
>
>So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
>of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
>Incredible.

and you think Jon is politically incorrect! Have you been on the 
JBoss lists?




--
Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
Link of the day: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40473-2001Oct10.html


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Ceki Gülcü]

You should remove the last paragraph, otherwise +1. 

At 21:31 17.10.2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not linked
>it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1 votes
>from the PMC.
>
>
>
>I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits from
>PMC members.
>
>:-)
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 11:48 PM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
> | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
> | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
> 
> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
> of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
> Incredible.
> 
> Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
> every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
> talking about?

For well over a year (or was it 2 or 3?), I hosted the JBoss projects on my
servers out of the goodness of my heart because they sorely needed mailing
lists and a decent cvs server. At the time, they were at risk of losing
their entire community. Eventually, I left the company but and about 6
months later I could no longer host them there so they had to move to
Sourceforge. 

I have nothing against their project other than my own opinions about EJB's
and they have been more than successful at the integration of Tomcat.

-jon


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