RE: The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[Henri Yandell]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Christoph Wilhelms wrote:

> Sorry! Just picking one point, but :)!

Slice it all apart, one point at a time :)

> > > > 7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?
> > > What's an Apache community? Do you mean 'top-level project'?
> >
> > Nope. Like, Jakarta should point to the Apache front page
> > somewhere, Ant
> > should too. BSF should point to Jakarta.
>
> Agrreed 100% - and this is what the forrest skin does in the header line
> (http://ant.apache.org, http://xml.apache.org/forrest) Of course this
> feature is part of FakeForrest :)

Good. Hopefully all technologies used to fuel the sites will be able to do
the same. :)

> > ie) Apache projects are a hierarchy. If the idea of a project being in
> > multiple communities occurs, then it would list these.
>
> If you mean Ant for example: As you might have missed, Ant was promoted from
> a Jakarta to a toplevel Apache project, so the link on Jakarta is just there
> to redirekt to the correct page, because hundreds for websites, programs,
> manuals etc. point to the jakarta website talking about Ant! Probably the
> link can be removed from project.xml but the redirecting page has to remain
> :)!

Not necessarily. Even though Ant, James etc have left Jakarta, ASF
discussions a while back [started off by Brian Behlendorf's email on
having categories/communities] suggest that Ant and James may still belong
to the Jakarta community, as well as being top-level projects. I think
this entire concept is still quite in the air.

> Additionally:
> I think it's pretty important to know how old some information is. For this
> reason (Fake)Forrest generates the deploy/generation date in the footer
> row...

Ah, definitely good. I'll add it to the 'contract'. Am writing up a first
one now.

Hen


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RE: The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[Christoph Wilhelms]

Hi!

Sorry! Just picking one point, but :)!

> > > 7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?
> > What's an Apache community? Do you mean 'top-level project'?
> 
> Nope. Like, Jakarta should point to the Apache front page 
> somewhere, Ant
> should too. BSF should point to Jakarta.

Agrreed 100% - and this is what the forrest skin does in the header line
(http://ant.apache.org, http://xml.apache.org/forrest) Of course this
feature is part of FakeForrest :)

> ie) Apache projects are a hierarchy. If the idea of a project being in
> multiple communities occurs, then it would list these.

If you mean Ant for example: As you might have missed, Ant was promoted from
a Jakarta to a toplevel Apache project, so the link on Jakarta is just there
to redirekt to the correct page, because hundreds for websites, programs,
manuals etc. point to the jakarta website talking about Ant! Probably the
link can be removed from project.xml but the redirecting page has to remain
:)!

Additionally:
I think it's pretty important to know how old some information is. For this
reason (Fake)Forrest generates the deploy/generation date in the footer
row...

Just my 2 cents :)

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[Henri Yandell]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 02:28:59 PM:
>
> How about we give these items some names:

Sounds good.

> > 1) Where do I download?
> Downloads
> > 2) Has their been a release?
> Release Notes

Possibly this should be 'Status' as projects may not have had a release.
I'm thinking that this section is more:

Status: We are working on version 3.0. It's aimed to contain blah blah,
world peace, profitable websites and no arguments.

> > 3) Where are the tutorials/documentation?
> Documentation
> > 4) How do I complain about a bug?
> Bugs
> > 5) Where do I ask a question?
> Mailing Lists
>
> > and then more minor questions like:
> >
> > 6) So who is behind Project X?
> Team Members
> > 7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?
> What's an Apache community? Do you mean 'top-level project'?

Nope. Like, Jakarta should point to the Apache front page somewhere, Ant
should too. BSF should point to Jakarta.

ie) Apache projects are a hierarchy. If the idea of a project being in
multiple communities occurs, then it would list these.

>
> [snippage]
> > Those who can't do, complain. But I'm happy to be a member of both sets.
> I
> > believe the first step is to actually try to cross-manage the site. Tbh,
> I
> What's cross-management?

Management's obviously a bad word, but I'm thinking of some form of
structure that Apache sites have to fit into. Like saying that every
subsite has to show the Apache logo etc. Basically trying to create a
site-contract that sub-projects agree to, hopefully helping to make the
site more usable to users without forcing anything too painful on
projects.

> > Once a site-wide contract for labelling and minimum functionality is
> > ironed out, each particular look and feel, project and generational tool
> > are free to enhance it as much as they want, as long as they:
> >
> > eg) Provide a link called 'Download nightly build'  or whatever.
> Cool.
>
> Let's take a stab at it then.

Okay. I'd like to start a document, I guess Wiki would be a good choice
for this, and evolve the document. Wiki, Mailing list, jakarta-site2 cvs?

Hen


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Re: The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[dion]

Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 02:28:59 PM:

[snip]
> However, a consistent skin might actually be the best way to get a
> consistently labelled and functional site together.
> 
> Now I get to disagree with Dion :) His list of important things, the 
ones
> Maven produce, are by and large not important. The important things are
> the ones the user cares about:
They're important to me as a developer. As a user, yeah it's a different 
list.

How about we give these items some names:

> 1) Where do I download?
Downloads
> 2) Has their been a release?
Release Notes
> 3) Where are the tutorials/documentation?
Documentation
> 4) How do I complain about a bug?
Bugs
> 5) Where do I ask a question?
Mailing Lists

> and then more minor questions like:
> 
> 6) So who is behind Project X?
Team Members
> 7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?
What's an Apache community? Do you mean 'top-level project'?

[snippage]
> Those who can't do, complain. But I'm happy to be a member of both sets. 
I
> believe the first step is to actually try to cross-manage the site. Tbh, 
I
What's cross-management?

> Once a site-wide contract for labelling and minimum functionality is
> ironed out, each particular look and feel, project and generational tool
> are free to enhance it as much as they want, as long as they:
> 
> eg) Provide a link called 'Download nightly build'  or whatever.
Cool.

Let's take a stab at it then.

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au



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The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[Henri Yandell]

[Welcome to session #7829 of the open source UN]

While I agree with Dion that the look and feel is secondary to content,
unification of labels is the most important thing. Users should expect a
project site to contain a certain set of content types, and a certain name
for each content type.

Actually, I'm utterly agreeing with Dion, it just seemed like a bad habit
to get into this early in the game,  so I had to begin by disagreeing.

However, a consistent skin might actually be the best way to get a
consistently labelled and functional site together.

Now I get to disagree with Dion :) His list of important things, the ones
Maven produce, are by and large not important. The important things are
the ones the user cares about:

1) Where do I download?
2) Has their been a release?
3) Where are the tutorials/documentation?
4) How do I complain about a bug?
5) Where do I ask a question?

and then more minor questions like:

6) So who is behind Project X?
7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?

Currently, very few of these are well represented across the site.
Generally this is a fault of the new looks and feels, the old ones managed
to at least maintain consistent labelling and functionality.

Examples:

Alexandria uses the old look and feel, but fails to maintain the same
navigation.

Ant. Confusion to user? Should this be listed as a project on Jakarta, or
should this be an alumni? This is a fault of the front page. Generally Ant
has good links of the nav-bar, are they consistent with anyone else? They
are quite close to the front page.

Avalon. Look and feel is a mix between the old and the new. Quite nice.
However it fails to match the navigation structure of Ant and the old
site.

BCEL. Mavenised? There is no download opption on the front page. This is
the biggest problem on sites of this look and feel, user's cannot download
the product.

BSF. Old style. Nav-bar relatively the same as the front page.

 and the others are no better 

Then the front-page. Dominated by news making it hard to see the welcome.

Those who can't do, complain. But I'm happy to be a member of both sets. I
believe the first step is to actually try to cross-manage the site. Tbh, I
think we could go a lot further wrong than by listing out an information
architecture for the site [I borrowed this from the OReilly Info-Arch
book: http://www.generationjava.com/articles/web/infoArch.shtml].

Once a site-wide contract for labelling and minimum functionality is
ironed out, each particular look and feel, project and generational tool
are free to enhance it as much as they want, as long as they:

eg) Provide a link called 'Download nightly build'  or whatever.

Hen

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Content of the site is far more important to me than the skin.
>
> I'd much rather we had all projects/sites listing a common, agreed upon
> set of information that is useful. For example, the set of reports maven
> produces under the heading Project Info (see
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/project-info.html ), along with
> source cross reference and javadocs, cvs activity reporting, unit test and
> 'style conformance'.
>
> Skins are secondary for me. If we could get consistent content across
> Jakarta, having a consistent look and feel would be the next step. But
> having everything look pretty but be incomplete is not much of a step up.
>
> So, how about getting some consistency in our navigation and content as
> part of the process?
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>
>
> Glen Stampoultzis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 12:44:53
> PM:
>
> > Hi.  I think this is important and I would love to see some unification
> of
> > skins on Apache.  While we may choose to use different tools to build
> our
> > sites but I think we should push to make the look of the project
> > consistent.  The current mess of different skins makes the site look
> sloppy.
> >
> > Agree/disagree?  Lets hear your opinion.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Glen Stampoultzis
> >
> >
> > At 08:42 AM 30/01/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> > >Hi all!
> > >
> > >I saw the "Tapestry" discussion, and this remindet me, that I wanted to
> > >"carry" FakeForrest to Jakarta!
> > >
> > >So what is it? Simple: It's a set of 2 Velocity/Anakia template-files
> and
> > >some images. The Velocity templates are build upon the Jakarta-ones and
> > >follow the Jakarta-Anakia-DTD!
> > >
> > >What does it? It renders Anakia-build websites with the (current - with
> some
> > >small modifications - see below) Forrest skin.
> > >
> > >Where can I find it? We currently use this to build the
> > >http://ant.apache.org website so you can preview the result there and
> the
> > >sources are in the Ant-cvs
> > >http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/xdocs/stylesheets/.
> > >
> > >Why should we use it? IMHO it is the FASTEST way to provide a nice,
> > >function

Re: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[dion]

Content of the site is far more important to me than the skin.

I'd much rather we had all projects/sites listing a common, agreed upon 
set of information that is useful. For example, the set of reports maven 
produces under the heading Project Info (see 
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/project-info.html ), along with 
source cross reference and javadocs, cvs activity reporting, unit test and 
'style conformance'.

Skins are secondary for me. If we could get consistent content across 
Jakarta, having a consistent look and feel would be the next step. But 
having everything look pretty but be incomplete is not much of a step up.

So, how about getting some consistency in our navigation and content as 
part of the process?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au


Glen Stampoultzis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 12:44:53 
PM:

> Hi.  I think this is important and I would love to see some unification 
of 
> skins on Apache.  While we may choose to use different tools to build 
our 
> sites but I think we should push to make the look of the project 
> consistent.  The current mess of different skins makes the site look 
sloppy.
> 
> Agree/disagree?  Lets hear your opinion.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Glen Stampoultzis
> 
> 
> At 08:42 AM 30/01/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >Hi all!
> >
> >I saw the "Tapestry" discussion, and this remindet me, that I wanted to
> >"carry" FakeForrest to Jakarta!
> >
> >So what is it? Simple: It's a set of 2 Velocity/Anakia template-files 
and
> >some images. The Velocity templates are build upon the Jakarta-ones and
> >follow the Jakarta-Anakia-DTD!
> >
> >What does it? It renders Anakia-build websites with the (current - with 
some
> >small modifications - see below) Forrest skin.
> >
> >Where can I find it? We currently use this to build the
> >http://ant.apache.org website so you can preview the result there and 
the
> >sources are in the Ant-cvs
> >http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/xdocs/stylesheets/.
> >
> >Why should we use it? IMHO it is the FASTEST way to provide a nice,
> >functional and consistent look of the entire xxx.apache.org website!
> >
> >Are there any limitations? Yes: Currently there are no multiple tabs 
for
> >menues on the left side, but this can easyly be solved by allowing 
multiple
> >menu-sections in the proect.xml
> >
> >Additionally: We (Conor ;)) recently fixed some incompatibilities with 
the
> >HTML 4.01 standard so it now generates validatable HTML 4.01 code! It's
> >proved, it works, it's nice ;).
> >
> >Remark: I do not see Fake-Forrest as the final solution, but its a nice 
and
> >fast way in moving to a nice new, consisten etc. look of the Apache 
website,
> >as I said before!
> >
> >Thoughts?
> >Christoph
> >
> >-
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
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> ForwardSourceID:NT000AB40A 

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Re: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[Glen Stampoultzis]

Hi.  I think this is important and I would love to see some unification of 
skins on Apache.  While we may choose to use different tools to build our 
sites but I think we should push to make the look of the project 
consistent.  The current mess of different skins makes the site look sloppy.

Agree/disagree?  Lets hear your opinion.

Regards,

Glen Stampoultzis


At 08:42 AM 30/01/2003 +0100, you wrote:
Hi all!

I saw the "Tapestry" discussion, and this remindet me, that I wanted to
"carry" FakeForrest to Jakarta!

So what is it? Simple: It's a set of 2 Velocity/Anakia template-files and
some images. The Velocity templates are build upon the Jakarta-ones and
follow the Jakarta-Anakia-DTD!

What does it? It renders Anakia-build websites with the (current - with some
small modifications - see below) Forrest skin.

Where can I find it? We currently use this to build the
http://ant.apache.org website so you can preview the result there and the
sources are in the Ant-cvs
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/xdocs/stylesheets/.

Why should we use it? IMHO it is the FASTEST way to provide a nice,
functional and consistent look of the entire xxx.apache.org website!

Are there any limitations? Yes: Currently there are no multiple tabs for
menues on the left side, but this can easyly be solved by allowing multiple
menu-sections in the proect.xml

Additionally: We (Conor ;)) recently fixed some incompatibilities with the
HTML 4.01 standard so it now generates validatable HTML 4.01 code! It's
proved, it works, it's nice ;).

Remark: I do not see Fake-Forrest as the final solution, but its a nice and
fast way in moving to a nice new, consisten etc. look of the Apache website,
as I said before!

Thoughts?
Christoph

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Re: nice

[acoliver]

Right but he's not AFAIK working there now and potentially exposed to
NDA-tainted individuals :-)

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: nice


> On 30/1/03 13:26 "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig
at
> >> Microsoft.  (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java).  Had I
sold
> >> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
> >
> > In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
> > being discriminated against because of their employer.
>
> Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an
> extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met
in
> my entire life:
>
> From :
>
> > Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development
Manager,
> > in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder
and
> > the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic
commerce
> > software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996.
>
> Pier
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: LGPL beans imported into code at Apache....

[Henri Yandell]

Mr RMS then needs to publish something about using LGPL/GPL with Java.

Personally I agree with the need for LGPL for library applications,
however LGPL's wording is phrased in C terminology and I have never seen
anyone offering good legal advice on whether LGPL is usable with Java
properly.

So that means using BSD. Afaik, Apache and BSD licenses are pretty much
the same, except that Apache license is 1) copyright owned by ASF and 2)
Useable only by the ASF.

I wish his page would list what the few requirements are that render it
incompatible with GNU GPL, or whether it is a lack of requirements.

Hen

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> On 30/1/03 7:58 "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >  I am not sure of Steffano's assertion that a Cocoon
> > block can be GPL from the last of that thread..  If it does an import of
> > org.apache.anything it is in trouble from my understanding of RMS's
> > typed GPL wisdoms (pasted below from
> > http://www.fsf.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses ) :
>
> That is RMS's vision, Roy's quite different, and I and Stefano ( with ONE
> "f") both agree with him. And as I pointed out in my emails to cocoon-dev,
> this should be really a discussion targeted to community@ or licensing@ ...
>
> God bless the power to say "off topic" :-) :-)
>
> Pier
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>


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Re: nice

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 30/1/03 13:26 "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at
>> Microsoft.  (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java).  Had I sold
>> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
> 
> In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
> being discriminated against because of their employer.

Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an
extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met in
my entire life:

>From :

> Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development Manager,
> in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder and
> the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic commerce
> software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996.

Pier


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Re: LGPL beans imported into code at Apache....

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 30/1/03 7:58 "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I am not sure of Steffano's assertion that a Cocoon
> block can be GPL from the last of that thread..  If it does an import of
> org.apache.anything it is in trouble from my understanding of RMS's
> typed GPL wisdoms (pasted below from
> http://www.fsf.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses ) :

That is RMS's vision, Roy's quite different, and I and Stefano ( with ONE
"f") both agree with him. And as I pointed out in my emails to cocoon-dev,
this should be really a discussion targeted to community@ or licensing@ ...

God bless the power to say "off topic" :-) :-)

Pier


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Re: I feel so vindicated.

[Micael]

However wrong or right you are or were, Jon, the place you site is clearly 
written by a "box of rocks".

At 11:58 PM 1/29/03 -0800, you wrote:
http://www.freeroller.net/page/ara_e/20021214

I think we are going to see more and more of this over the coming year as
the economy gets worse and worse and people are expected to produce real
working applications. People are going to start to clue in to the fact that
EJB sucks. JSP sucks. JCP sucks. Struts sucks. JSTL sucks. People are going
to start to look for real solutions to their problems. Not just marketing
hype and bullshit business practices.

I feel so vindicated. How many years have I been saying the same thing over
and over again?

=)

-jon

--
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[acoliver]

Extemely well said.

Please get well soon my friend!  :-)

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]


> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
>
> (...)
> > It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
> > process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped.  The
> > only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think
> > you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be
> > a part of the process if you want serious players to participate.  One
> > of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of
> > proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).
> > Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the
> > process, they are there.
> >
>
> OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign a
> NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, as it
> often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that some of the
> discussions should remain secret, I think that partial agreements (or
> blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and should be
> communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a bare
> minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, demo,
> API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least every
> three months, and use this information to gather feedback from the
> outside via a public discussion list.
>
> I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public draft
> phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) seriously
> abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the process was
> meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the concerns I express
> do apply more and more.
>
> Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in the
> process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need of
> regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" between
> public lists and the EG.
>
> The whole process reminds me of the bullshit that the European Esprit
> Program became some time ago, where any company could refrain from
> having to justify public money by just saying that the work was "a
> commercial trade". I've played in this field already, and in both sides.
;-)
>
> Regards, (I'm trying to be as much constructive as I can, being in bed
> with a flu and my back aching, pending a NMR test to see if it is
> damaged or not ...)
>   Santiago
>
> > geir
> >
>
>
>
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>


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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[Santiago Gala]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:




(...) agreed



Yes - indeed.  The idea is to have more public participation (vote early 
and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG having to 
expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having constraints 
like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.


It would bring global health to the process, I would say, even if the 
public participation was restricted to voice and lobbying from the 
outside, with no vote in the process.

One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is 
that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in general 
for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard to want 
to dictate a project management style...


I agree, and it is precisely the kind of work that I'm very bad at doing 
(except maybe for detecting incoherent documents, or things like this), 
so I would not take this role eagerly. I also respect them a lot.

But a lot of the work is political, making "minimum agreements", 
unblocking issues, etc. Judicious use of open lists to help promote 
general approaches to problems, to "test the water", or to try to get 
feedback or pressure to pass political blockings could *ease* it, rather 
than the opposite. (I'm quite sure that Stefano, for instance, would 
know how to manage a JSR this way :-)



Regards,
 Santiago


geir





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Réf. : Re: Réf. : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?

[manuel . olivera]

It works !

Thanks a lot !




Extranet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 30/01/2003 14:11


Veuillez répondre à [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pour : general

cc :


Objet : Re: Réf. : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I can't ping cvs.apache.org.
>
> Actually, I have to deal with an http proxy ( and I was'nt aware that
> cvs doesn't work with )
> Is it possible to configure cvs to work with it ?

have a look at http://cvsgrab.sourceforge.net/


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[Henri Yandell]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

>
> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
>
> Agreed, good supporting feedback, and this is something that is a
> current topic of interest in the JCP EC.  We (the members of the EC,
> the ASF being a member) are interested in encouraging openness in the
> process from the start via support for open mail lists, etc, as well as
> more public reviews.  However, it's still up to the JSR leads.  I guess
> one thing I can do as the EC rep is ensure that for every new JSR that
> comes up for a vote for acceptance to continue, I lobby the spec lead /
> EG to make it as open as possible.

Make the open JSR's open. ie) Give me a list of the JSRs which do have
open mail lists and public reviews etc. Especially public reviews in which
the public discuss, not just write-only emails.

Cultivating an image that the ASF, and yourself on behalf of the ASF, are
doing their best to open-up the JCP seems like a good thing.

> > Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> > people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> > exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in
> > the process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need
> > of regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs"
> > between public lists and the EG.
>
> Yes - indeed.  The idea is to have more public participation (vote
> early and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG
> having to expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having
> constraints like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.
>
> One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is
> that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in
> general for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard
> to want to dictate a project management style...

Good point. Open-ness does lead to mayhem.

Hen


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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

(...)

It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the 
process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped.  The 
only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I 
think you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's 
will be a part of the process if you want serious players to 
participate.  One of the big issues surrounding standards is the 
inclusion/discussion of proprietary information offered by 
participating entities (companies).  Whether or not you like the 
existence of commercial entities in the process, they are there.

OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign 
a NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, 
as it often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that 
some of the discussions should remain secret, I think that partial 
agreements (or blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and 
should be communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a 
bare minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, 
demo, API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least 
every three months, and use this information to gather feedback from 
the outside via a public discussion list.

Agreed, good supporting feedback, and this is something that is a 
current topic of interest in the JCP EC.  We (the members of the EC, 
the ASF being a member) are interested in encouraging openness in the 
process from the start via support for open mail lists, etc, as well as 
more public reviews.  However, it's still up to the JSR leads.  I guess 
one thing I can do as the EC rep is ensure that for every new JSR that 
comes up for a vote for acceptance to continue, I lobby the spec lead / 
EG to make it as open as possible.


I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public 
draft phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) 
seriously abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the 
process was meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the 
concerns I express do apply more and more.

Yes - you are right.



Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role, 
people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be 
exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in 
the process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need 
of regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" 
between public lists and the EG.

Yes - indeed.  The idea is to have more public participation (vote 
early and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG 
having to expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having 
constraints like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.

One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is 
that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in 
general for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard 
to want to dictate a project management style...

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[Santiago Gala]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:




(...)

It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the 
process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped.  The 
only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think 
you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be 
a part of the process if you want serious players to participate.  One 
of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of 
proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).  
Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the 
process, they are there.


OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign a 
NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, as it 
often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that some of the 
discussions should remain secret, I think that partial agreements (or 
blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and should be 
communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a bare 
minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, demo, 
API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least every 
three months, and use this information to gather feedback from the 
outside via a public discussion list.

I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public draft 
phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) seriously 
abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the process was 
meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the concerns I express 
do apply more and more.

Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role, 
people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be 
exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in the 
process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need of 
regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" between 
public lists and the EG.

The whole process reminds me of the bullshit that the European Esprit 
Program became some time ago, where any company could refrain from 
having to justify public money by just saying that the work was "a 
commercial trade". I've played in this field already, and in both sides. ;-)

Regards, (I'm trying to be as much constructive as I can, being in bed 
with a flu and my back aching, pending a NMR test to see if it is 
damaged or not ...)
 Santiago

geir





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Re: nice

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig 
at
Microsoft.  (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java).  Had 
I sold
my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?

In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person 
being discriminated against because of their employer.

[SNIP]

Or since the JCP seeks to create a spec for everything, what if I work 
for
some other company which say puts out anything to do with "Micro" 
devices
(pdas, etc) or portals.  Am I a potential object of litigation just 
through
my association with Apache and Apache's association with the JCP?

In the US, you are always a potential litigation target, no matter who 
you work for, or what you do.


I'd sure feel a lot less fear, uncertainty and doubt if all my fellow 
apache
members weren't under NDAs carrying around tainted knowledge which is
proprietary of Sun. It seems an open process would sure make the JCP  a
whole lot more appealing.

It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the 
process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped.  The 
only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think 
you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be 
a part of the process if you want serious players to participate.  One 
of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of 
proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).  
Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the 
process, they are there.

geir


But then I'm weird like that.

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: nice





On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


We have 'infiltrated' it.  The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have 
many
members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.

Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could 
be
saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.

FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous 
JCP
rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental 
in
fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.

This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.


There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are 
bound
by the same agreements.  If there is sufficient interest in an open 
JCP
discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.

Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are 
you all
members via your companies?

As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual 
issues
with employers?

Hen


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--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Réf. : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?

[Steven Noels]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I can't ping cvs.apache.org.

Actually, I have to deal with an http proxy ( and I was'nt aware that
cvs doesn't work with )
Is it possible to configure cvs to work with it ?


have a look at http://cvsgrab.sourceforge.net/


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Réf. : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.orgdoesn't work ...?

[manuel . olivera]

I can't ping cvs.apache.org.

Actually, I have to deal with an http proxy ( and I was'nt aware that
cvs doesn't work with )
Is it possible to configure cvs to work with it ?

Thanx a lot.
Manuel



Extranet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 30/01/2003 14:01


Veuillez répondre à [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pour : general

cc :


Objet : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?


Seems to be ok from my end...

Logging in to :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:2401/home/cvspublic
CVS password:
cvs server: Updating jakarta-turbine-maven
U jakarta-turbine-maven/.cvsignore
U jakarta-turbine-maven/LICENSE.txt
...


make sure you can ping cvs.apache.org

You are aware that cvs doesn't work through an http proxy?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Hi,
>
>When I try to loging on the jakarta's anoncvs, i get this message :
>
>"
>C:\maven2> cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/cvspublic login
>(Logging in to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
>CVS password:
>Unknown host cvs.apache.org.
>"
>
>Do you have an idea ?
>Could my proxy cause this ?
>
>I hope i didn't bother you with such a futile question, and if I wrote to
>the wrong mailing list, please forgive me.
>Thanks for your advices.
>
>Manuel Olivera
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This message and any attachments (the "message") is
>intended solely for the addressees and is confidential.
>If you receive this message in error, please delete it and
>immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord with
>its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole
>or partial, is prohibited except formal approval. The internet
>can not guarantee the integrity of this message.
>BNP PARIBAS (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not
>therefore be liable for the message if modified.
>
>-
>
>Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le
>"message") sont etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses
>destinataires et sont confidentiels. Si vous recevez ce
>message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir
>immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce
>message non conforme a sa destination, toute diffusion
>ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, est interdite, sauf
>autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas
>d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, BNP PARIBAS (et ses
>filiales) decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce
>message, dans l'hypothese ou il aurait ete modifie.
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>
>



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This message and any attachments (the "message") is
intended solely for the addressees and is confidential. 
If you receive this message in error, please delete it and 
immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord with 
its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole 
or partial, is prohibited except formal approval. The internet
can not guarantee the integrity of this message. 
BNP PARIBAS (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not 
therefore be liable for the message if modified. 

-

Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le 
"message") sont etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses 
destinataires et sont confidentiels. Si vous recevez ce 
message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir 
immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce 
message non conforme a sa destination, toute diffusion 
ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, est interdite, sauf 
autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas 
d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, BNP PARIBAS (et ses
filiales) decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce 
message, dans l'hypothese ou il aurait ete modifie.


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Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?

[Ben Walding]

Seems to be ok from my end...

Logging in to :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:2401/home/cvspublic
CVS password:
cvs server: Updating jakarta-turbine-maven
U jakarta-turbine-maven/.cvsignore
U jakarta-turbine-maven/LICENSE.txt
...


make sure you can ping cvs.apache.org

You are aware that cvs doesn't work through an http proxy?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,

When I try to loging on the jakarta's anoncvs, i get this message :

"
C:\maven2> cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/cvspublic login
(Logging in to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
CVS password:
Unknown host cvs.apache.org.
"

Do you have an idea ?
Could my proxy cause this ?

I hope i didn't bother you with such a futile question, and if I wrote to
the wrong mailing list, please forgive me.
Thanks for your advices.

Manuel Olivera






This message and any attachments (the "message") is
intended solely for the addressees and is confidential. 
If you receive this message in error, please delete it and 
immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord with 
its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole 
or partial, is prohibited except formal approval. The internet
can not guarantee the integrity of this message. 
BNP PARIBAS (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not 
therefore be liable for the message if modified. 

   -

Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le 
"message") sont etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses 
destinataires et sont confidentiels. Si vous recevez ce 
message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir 
immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce 
message non conforme a sa destination, toute diffusion 
ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, est interdite, sauf 
autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas 
d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, BNP PARIBAS (et ses
filiales) decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce 
message, dans l'hypothese ou il aurait ete modifie.


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cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?

[manuel . olivera]

Hi,

When I try to loging on the jakarta's anoncvs, i get this message :

"
C:\maven2> cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/cvspublic login
(Logging in to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
CVS password:
Unknown host cvs.apache.org.
"

Do you have an idea ?
Could my proxy cause this ?

I hope i didn't bother you with such a futile question, and if I wrote to
the wrong mailing list, please forgive me.
Thanks for your advices.

Manuel Olivera






This message and any attachments (the "message") is
intended solely for the addressees and is confidential. 
If you receive this message in error, please delete it and 
immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord with 
its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole 
or partial, is prohibited except formal approval. The internet
can not guarantee the integrity of this message. 
BNP PARIBAS (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not 
therefore be liable for the message if modified. 

-

Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le 
"message") sont etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses 
destinataires et sont confidentiels. Si vous recevez ce 
message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir 
immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce 
message non conforme a sa destination, toute diffusion 
ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, est interdite, sauf 
autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas 
d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, BNP PARIBAS (et ses
filiales) decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce 
message, dans l'hypothese ou il aurait ete modifie.


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Re: I feel so vindicated.

[jean-frederic clere]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

http://www.freeroller.net/page/ara_e/20021214

I think we are going to see more and more of this over the coming year as
the economy gets worse and worse and people are expected to produce real
working applications. People are going to start to clue in to the fact that
EJB sucks. JSP sucks. JCP sucks. Struts sucks. JSTL sucks. People are going
to start to look for real solutions to their problems. Not just marketing
hype and bullshit business practices.


The page you refer speaks about .Net and COM+ from m$, m$ is known for its 
"marketing".


I feel so vindicated. How many years have I been saying the same thing over
and over again?

=)

-jon





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