Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:29, Geoff Soutter wrote:
> > > Another key
> > > difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.
> >
> > Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the
> > "marketing" aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather
> > than private, fee based network to transmit the data.
> 
> I wonder how long that will last. I don't have any experience in this area
> but I would find it insane for any decent sized organization to rely on the
> internet for any time sensitive data. Imagine what happens when network goes
> down or slows up. Time sensitive data may not be delivered on time and thus
> may incur fines or may have to wait till next delivery period. And I would
> hazard to guess that this could be costly for the organiztion.

Every example I have seen for web services would lay in the area of
"trivial
applications".  These are not full service EDI applications.  However,
the
web services technologies can be adapted for private fee based networks
to
replace aging mainframes and COBOL code.

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:29, Geoff Soutter wrote:
> > Another key
> > difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.
>
> Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the
> "marketing" aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather
> than private, fee based network to transmit the data.

I wonder how long that will last. I don't have any experience in this area 
but I would find it insane for any decent sized organization to rely on the 
internet for any time sensitive data. Imagine what happens when network goes 
down or slows up. Time sensitive data may not be delivered on time and thus 
may incur fines or may have to wait till next delivery period. And I would 
hazard to guess that this could be costly for the organiztion.

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

"Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Geoff Soutter wrote:
> >
> > Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new
name?

[snip]

> This is true to a large extent.  There are two key differences though:
the
> information is in a standard format (XML) which only requires a generic
parser
> to read

Hmm. EDI used "standard" formats defined by ANSI X.12 and EDIFACT. Simple
line based things which were easy to write to with COBOL. XML is a better
fit for the business language of the day in this case, Java, but it's not
really any more "standard".

>  and the addition of automatic discovery of services.

IMHO, this is the part that is likely to not work. Getting applications to
discover each other and talk together effectively without prior planning is
_hard_ for anything thats not trivial.

> Another key
> difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.

Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the "marketing"
aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather than
private, fee based network to transmit the data.

Also, Web services can work in real time because computers have so much more
grunt these days. EDI is all message based.

> I doubt Web Services will replace traditional EDI soon, but there are some
> neat things that the Web Services approach allows you which EDI does not
(at
> least my _very_limited_ understanding of EDI).  The first thing is UDDI
for
> automatic publication and registration of services offered.  EDI typically
> is set up on a company by company basis involving humans.  This approach
> cannot scale to the extent that Web Services claims to (i.e. like HTML web
sites).

UDDI is cool, but it's going to be very hard to make it work without humans.
You have to deal with the different applications at each end which have
different internal data structures, and yet use a common format that both
understand. UDDI itself is not that hard, but getting apps to agree on a
common format which everyone can use and which meets everyones business
needs is impossible.

Just take a look at the format for an EDIFACT Purchase Order document to see
what I mean. It's _way_ complex, and most people only implement a fraction
of it. Thus you need humans to agree which parts are going to be used, and
what the contents actually mean in a business sense.

> The second is the standard markup definition used for data exchange.  By
using
> XML, a company can choose the XML parser based on performance and load
criteria
> (something that EDI can't offer alot of choice in).

There are many companies offering EDI parsers that can deal with the
standard X.12 and EDIFACT syntaxes.

> Web Services is the next big idea for a smart web where things just
"work".
> One way I can see this take off is in a "smart kitchen".  Imagine if you
will
> the kitchen of the future where the refrigerators and cupboards keep track
of
> inventory and order groceries to be delivered on a "Just in Time" basis.
This
> of course would be first adopted by professional establishments, and then
find
> their way into everyday homes.  The scenario outlined above also buys into
the
> embedded market in what they preach.  It is a "realizable dream" in that
it
> can be done with today's technology--the business side of things has to be
worked
> out though.
>
> Web Services do have potential beyond what EDI preaches--and it is in
small services
> that can be combined into a larger service.  This is in contrast to one
large transaction
> with one party.  The interesting twist to Web Services is that you can
change the
> players that make up compound service without affecting the logic of the
service.

Aha. To me, these fall under the umbrella of 'trivial' apps. It's not hard
to define an interface for a light switch that everyone is happy with. A
refrigerator might be a bit harder :-).

Seems to me that companies like IBM, etc, that are backing web services are
marketing it like a next-gen EDI rather than like the JINI style stuff you
descibe above.

Don't get me wrong, I think EDI and Web services are great. Web Services may
go some way to make EDI style implementations easier, but they underlying
problems remain the same. As Chuck D. so eloquently said: Don't believe the
hype!

Cheers

Geoff



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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:48, Allen Levin wrote:
> Gentlemen and Gentlewomen,
>
> I know that this is not the place but... Based on the last two discussions,
> you aren't afraid of expressing you opinions. And, you are quite
> experienced with open source, so please excuse the question but this seems
> like a good place to ask it.
>
> My company is looking for a GUI front end for CVS, any recommendations?
>
> We use Linux as the development platform but many people edit on Windows
> using Exceed.

wincvs for win32 and the gnome port gcvs are useful. (Checkout 
www.wincvs.org).

Apparently cervista for KDE desktop is superior but I have never used it. 
Search on KDE website to find it.

>
> Thanks,
>
> a.l.
>
> Allen Levin
> Phone: (408) 626-8100 x232
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*

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RE: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Allen Levin]

Gentlemen and Gentlewomen,

I know that this is not the place but... Based on the last two discussions,
you aren't afraid of expressing you opinions. And, you are quite experienced
with open source, so please excuse the question but this seems like a good
place to ask it.

My company is looking for a GUI front end for CVS, any recommendations? 

We use Linux as the development platform but many people edit on Windows
using Exceed.

Thanks,

a.l.

Allen Levin
Phone: (408) 626-8100 x232
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Geoff Soutter wrote:
> 
> Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new name?
> 
> Applications have been talking to each other across company boundaries since
> the 80's after all.
> 
> Just ask the car makers who've done all their purchasing, etc via "web
> services" for aeons ... :-)

This is true to a large extent.  There are two key differences though:  the
information is in a standard format (XML) which only requires a generic parser
to read, and the addition of automatic discovery of services.  Another key
difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.

I doubt Web Services will replace traditional EDI soon, but there are some
neat things that the Web Services approach allows you which EDI does not (at
least my _very_limited_ understanding of EDI).  The first thing is UDDI for
automatic publication and registration of services offered.  EDI typically
is set up on a company by company basis involving humans.  This approach
cannot scale to the extent that Web Services claims to (i.e. like HTML web sites).
The second is the standard markup definition used for data exchange.  By using
XML, a company can choose the XML parser based on performance and load criteria
(something that EDI can't offer alot of choice in).

Web Services is the next big idea for a smart web where things just "work".
One way I can see this take off is in a "smart kitchen".  Imagine if you will
the kitchen of the future where the refrigerators and cupboards keep track of
inventory and order groceries to be delivered on a "Just in Time" basis.  This
of course would be first adopted by professional establishments, and then find
their way into everyday homes.  The scenario outlined above also buys into the
embedded market in what they preach.  It is a "realizable dream" in that it
can be done with today's technology--the business side of things has to be worked
out though.

Web Services do have potential beyond what EDI preaches--and it is in small services
that can be combined into a larger service.  This is in contrast to one large 
transaction
with one party.  The interesting twist to Web Services is that you can change the
players that make up compound service without affecting the logic of the service.

> 
> Geoff
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:23 AM
> Subject: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
> 
> > Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> > decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
> >
> > <http://sdc.sun.com/briefings/agenda.cgi?eventkey=5100>
> >
> > I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
> how
> > to build a website with JSP.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> > -- Forwarded Message
> > From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
> >
> > Dear Developer:
> >
> > Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
> > clearly the next big thing.
> >
> > Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
> > attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
> > This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
> >
> > At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
> > very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
> > Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
> > addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
> > development including steps in the process such as design, create,
> assemble,
> > publish, and deploy.
> >
> > For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
> >
> > http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
> >
> > PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
> > box on the upper left-hand of the description.
> >
> > See you at the Briefing!
> >
> > Ann Wilkins
> > Sun Headquarter Briefings
> > Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > -- End of Forwarded Message
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> 
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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

"Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The one advantage that I think Web Services could have is if an
organization
> was setup to standardize these high-level contracts.

UN/EDIFACT. They've been doing this since the late 80's? :-)

http://directory.google.com/Top/Business/E-Commerce/Standards_and_Protocols/
EDIFACT/

Although I (seem to) remember they work in co-operation with someone like
OASIS these days.

Geoff



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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new name?

Applications have been talking to each other across company boundaries since
the 80's after all.

Just ask the car makers who've done all their purchasing, etc via "web
services" for aeons ... :-)

Geoff

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:23 AM
Subject: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services


> Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
>
> <http://sdc.sun.com/briefings/agenda.cgi?eventkey=5100>
>
> I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
how
> to build a website with JSP.
>
> -jon
>
> -- Forwarded Message
> From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
>
> Dear Developer:
>
> Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
> clearly the next big thing.
>
> Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
> attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
> This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
>
> At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
> very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
> Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
> addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
> development including steps in the process such as design, create,
assemble,
> publish, and deploy.
>
> For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
>
> http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
>
> PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
> box on the upper left-hand of the description.
>
> See you at the Briefing!
>
> Ann Wilkins
> Sun Headquarter Briefings
> Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> -- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

On Thu,  9 Aug 2001 03:16, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
> > It is basically yet another attempt to bring around interoperability much
> > like all the various distributed object/rpc protocols (DCOM, IIOP etc).
> > However the claim is that this time it will work because messages are
>
> plain
>
> > text and that you use HTTP which is generally not firewalled off.
>
> Personally, I'd ignore the firewall parts of the discussion.  That's a
> distraction.
>
> My take on it: CORBA and DCOM failed to achieve ubiquity because they tried
> to do too much and were too vendor specific (both protocols shared these
> aspects, but to different degrees).

I always thought it was the lack of standardized/open higher level 
"interfaces" (ie DTD/Schema fo web services, IDL for CORBA, etc).

So pick a biz domain - Now there wasn't any open standard description format 
to exchange info so you made up your own (or maybe use a partners if 
licensing fees aren't too steep). So you end up with Babel communication, 
lots of talking but all in different languages.

The one advantage that I think Web Services could have is if an organization 
was setup to standardize these high-level contracts. I think that MS is 
attempting to become such a group (and collect all the license/transaction 
fees) though I hope they don't succede ;) It would be more interesting if a 
more open company setup a repository of open/license free schemas and 
advocated it to the specific industrys. If that were to happen then Web 
Services would be a success regardless of any technical concerns ;)

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Umar Syyid wrote:
> 
> Hi Berin,
> 
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > The compelling example that was given in WSDJ was a very simple web service to
> > find out how much any book from Borders would cost in any currency.  The cool
> > part of SOAP and therefore WS is the support for transactions.  You can compose
> > larger WS from smaller ones.  The example used two existing WS--one from Borders
> > that returns the price of a book (specified by ISBN number) in US currency, and
> > one that converts from one currency to another with the current exchange rates.
> > The web service that was written took markup that specified the ISBN number and
> > the resultant currency type you wanted.  The web service would create a transaction
> > that spanned the two other WS calls.  First it accessed Border's WS and got the
> > US price.  Then it accessed the exchange rate WS to find the price according to
> > the desired currency.
> 
> When you say transaction here, are you using the term in the technical
> sense?

Yes.  The transactions are part of the SOAP protocol along with security
constraints.  Please check the SOAP docs for more info.

> How does the transactional context propagate across varying resource
> types? For example, if one web service is executing an EJB
> implementation how do web services help the transaction to cross
> boundaries to COM+ objects running under MTS? Are web services a better
> integration technology then what exists today? Has someone built
> products that address cross app server interoperability concerns such as
> the one I mentioned above? Or are web services meant to be used only as
> a simple data exchange mechanism?

The transaction mechanism is in the protocol.  The underlying implementations
do not change the mechanisms in the protocol.  This means that you can have a
web service that uses EJB, that uses a web service using DCOM, that uses a
service using CORBA.  The SOAP protocol is able to specify when a request
failed and the calling service then can "rollback" all the changes it made.

Basically SOAP has become your Transaction Authority.

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Umar Syyid]

Hi Berin,

Berin Loritsch wrote:
> The compelling example that was given in WSDJ was a very simple web service to
> find out how much any book from Borders would cost in any currency.  The cool
> part of SOAP and therefore WS is the support for transactions.  You can compose
> larger WS from smaller ones.  The example used two existing WS--one from Borders
> that returns the price of a book (specified by ISBN number) in US currency, and
> one that converts from one currency to another with the current exchange rates.
> The web service that was written took markup that specified the ISBN number and
> the resultant currency type you wanted.  The web service would create a transaction
> that spanned the two other WS calls.  First it accessed Border's WS and got the
> US price.  Then it accessed the exchange rate WS to find the price according to
> the desired currency.

When you say transaction here, are you using the term in the technical
sense? 

How does the transactional context propagate across varying resource
types? For example, if one web service is executing an EJB
implementation how do web services help the transaction to cross
boundaries to COM+ objects running under MTS? Are web services a better
integration technology then what exists today? Has someone built
products that address cross app server interoperability concerns such as
the one I mentioned above? Or are web services meant to be used only as
a simple data exchange mechanism?

-Umar.

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> on 8/8/01 9:59 AM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
> > UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.
> >
> > The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote resources
> > that my webapp can use and then actually use it.
> 
> I'm surprised no one has mentioned JXTA. Where does that fall into this web
> services picture?
> 
> 

The nebulous definition of a Web Service is:

"A dynamic web resource designed to be accessed and used by applications."

The key part here is "used by applications".  If you incorporate pieces of
www.jxta.org into the picture--then that is how you defined your Web Service.
The tools commonly agreed upon (according to the premier Web Services Developer's
Journal [WSDJ] that was included with the next to last JDJ issue) are UDDI, SOAP, and
WSDL.  Another part that is required is Schema support (but you knew that already
because UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL either require it or provide methods of specifying it).

The compelling example that was given in WSDJ was a very simple web service to
find out how much any book from Borders would cost in any currency.  The cool
part of SOAP and therefore WS is the support for transactions.  You can compose
larger WS from smaller ones.  The example used two existing WS--one from Borders
that returns the price of a book (specified by ISBN number) in US currency, and
one that converts from one currency to another with the current exchange rates.
The web service that was written took markup that specified the ISBN number and
the resultant currency type you wanted.  The web service would create a transaction
that spanned the two other WS calls.  First it accessed Border's WS and got the
US price.  Then it accessed the exchange rate WS to find the price according to
the desired currency.

That relatively simple example demonstrated why the WS concept is so powerful.
The biggest thing is that this is all done from within applications.  Your
front end can be a web page, or a standalone app.  They would both function
identically--just with different user interfaces.  In fact, you can add your
own web service that uses this example, and will bring up a list of ISBNs and
the cost from a Title.

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> I'm surprised no one has mentioned JXTA. Where does that fall into this
web
> services picture?

JXTA is P2P.  WebServices tend to be client/server.

Some would argue that if Web Services are the next big thing that P2P is
the NEXT next big thing.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Nael Mohammad]

And for more info on WEB Services, visit: http://www.wsj2.com/ and
http://www.sys-con.com/webservices/ and even IBM has a very informative site
on this issue: 
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/

Nael Mohammad
Neomar, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-403-7300 x314 (Work)
415-793-0609 (Mobile)
"When Wireless Means Business"


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-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services


on 8/8/01 9:59 AM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
> UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.
> 
> The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote
resources
> that my webapp can use and then actually use it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned JXTA. Where does that fall into this web
services picture?

<http://www.jxta.org/>

P.s. This is great discussion. Thanks.

-jon


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Sam Ruby]

Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > WebServices == SOAP is a good first order approximation.
>
> All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
> UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.
>
> The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote
resources
> that my webapp can use and then actually use it.

That would be an excellent second order approximation!  ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Jon Stevens]

on 8/8/01 9:59 AM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
> UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.
> 
> The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote resources
> that my webapp can use and then actually use it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned JXTA. Where does that fall into this web
services picture?



P.s. This is great discussion. Thanks.

-jon


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Sam Ruby]

Peter Donald wrote:
>
> It is basically yet another attempt to bring around interoperability much
> like all the various distributed object/rpc protocols (DCOM, IIOP etc).
> However the claim is that this time it will work because messages are
plain
> text and that you use HTTP which is generally not firewalled off.

Personally, I'd ignore the firewall parts of the discussion.  That's a
distraction.

My take on it: CORBA and DCOM failed to achieve ubiquity because they tried
to do too much and were too vendor specific (both protocols shared these
aspects, but to different degrees).

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> Jon Stevens wrote:
> >
> > Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> > decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
> >
> > 
> >
> > I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
> how
> > to build a website with JSP.
> 
> WebServices == SOAP is a good first order approximation.

All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.

The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote resources
that my webapp can use and then actually use it.

> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Klaus Sonnenleiter]

I guess you could say it's components with a networking twist. I don't know 
if it's the "next big thing", but it appears to be yet another piece of the 
buzzword puzzle to be aware of ;-)

At 08:23 AM 8/8/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
>decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
>
>
>
>I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about how
>to build a website with JSP.
>
>-jon
>
>-- Forwarded Message
>From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
>
>Dear Developer:
>
>Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
>clearly the next big thing.
>
>Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
>attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
>This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
>
>At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
>very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
>Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
>addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
>development including steps in the process such as design, create, assemble,
>publish, and deploy.
>
>For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
>
> http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
>
>PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
>box on the upper left-hand of the description.
>
>See you at the Briefing!
>
>Ann Wilkins
>Sun Headquarter Briefings
>Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>-- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Daniel F. Savarese]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jon Stevens writes:
>Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
>decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?

Right now it's mostly vapor, at least on the Sun ONE end of things.
Too many of the Java APIs related to Web services are still making their
way through the JCP (JAXB, JAXM, JAXR, JAX-RPC, Java APIs for WSDL)
and several of the XML standards are still in flux (SOAP is now part of
the W3C XML Protocol Activity and WSDL is only a W3C Note).  Furthermore,
every whitepaper seems to define web services slightly differently.
Apparently though, if you pump in XML to a server via HTTP and get XML
back, it's a Web service.

daniel






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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
>
> 
>
> I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
how
> to build a website with JSP.

WebServices == SOAP is a good first order approximation.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

Hi,

It is basically yet another attempt to bring around interoperability much 
like all the various distributed object/rpc protocols (DCOM, IIOP etc). 
However the claim is that this time it will work because messages are plain 
text and that you use HTTP which is generally not firewalled off.

However there has already been murmurings about compacting the XML because it 
is has low info density (I even heard that the ASN1.1 peeps are trying to get 
XML defined via that and encoded via PER, BER, XDR, etc). Another thing that 
will occur is that as more important and sensitive information is transferred 
via HTTP it will become more regulated via firewall software.

Even if the above doesn't happen you are still placed at risk because what 
happens when the service provider goes down, you get disconnected, has 
security breaches or has nasty master (say MSes Passport authentication web 
service). Basically everything breaks - fun ;) So it is really only a good 
idea when you have a reliable network (ie an intranet) and trust/control the 
service.

However theres a fair bit of marketing power behind it (ie IBM/MS combo) so 
anything is possible ;)

On Thu,  9 Aug 2001 01:23, Jon Stevens wrote:
> Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
>
> 
>
> I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
> how to build a website with JSP.
>
> -jon
>
> -- Forwarded Message
> From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
>
> Dear Developer:
>
> Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
> clearly the next big thing.
>
> Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
> attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
> This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
>
> At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
> very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
> Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
> addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
> development including steps in the process such as design, create,
> assemble, publish, and deploy.
>
> For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
>
> http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
>
> PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
> box on the upper left-hand of the description.
>
> See you at the Briefing!
>
> Ann Wilkins
> Sun Headquarter Briefings
> Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> -- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Jon Stevens]

on 8/8/01 8:34 AM, "Waldhoff, Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It's an important part of optimizing your value Chain when dealing with
> everything from SMEs to large scale enterprises. ;)

HAHAHAHA

I'm sure it will increase my ROI on my ENV when my SME hits my JSP and pukes
all over my RTFM.

-jon


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RE: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Waldhoff, Rodney]

> I'm guessing it [web services] is fancy marketing foo about 
> SOAP/XML-RPC 

Correct. "Web Services" generally means SOAP/XML-RPC etc.

It's an important part of optimizing your value Chain when dealing with
everything from SMEs to large scale enterprises. ;)

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[OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Jon Stevens]

Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?



I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about how
to build a website with JSP.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

Dear Developer:

Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
clearly the next big thing.

Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
 
At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
development including steps in the process such as design, create, assemble,
publish, and deploy.
 
For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:

http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
 
PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
box on the upper left-hand of the description.
  
See you at the Briefing!

Ann Wilkins 
Sun Headquarter Briefings
Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- End of Forwarded Message


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