RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Of course the CEO eats it up because he can brag to the investors
> that they
> spent $500,000 on Oracle and EJB licensing... (because their
> technology is so
> amazing)
>
> ug...
>
> The hard part is trying to convince someone that Apache technologies are
> superior.  (these cost exactly $0.0)...

I have seen this a lot (not at my current employer).

Even when you have an Open Source solution really WORKING to show, dumb
managers will still deny using it.

Dilbertian logic rules on corporate live.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin A. Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:24 AM
>
>
> Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Sigh, I have been saying this for well over a year now...
> 
>
> > Companies wasted more than $1 billion between 1998 and 2000 on high-end
> > Java application servers that provide far more capabilities than are
> > needed on most Web sites, says research firm Gartner. And, if the trend
> > continues, Gartner estimates that companies could throw away another $2
> > billion from 2001 to 2003.
> 
>
> It is funny... I think that the problem is the typical pointy haired boss
> syndrome.  You get these morons who get promoted outside of their level of
> expertise and have to make a technical decision.  In order to
> justify their
> salary they pick the most expensive technology available.  (look
> how smart I
> am!)
>
> Of course the CEO eats it up because he can brag to the investors
> that they
> spent $500,000 on Oracle and EJB licensing... (because their
> technology is so
> amazing)
>
> ug...
>
> The hard part is trying to convince someone that Apache technologies are
> superior.  (these cost exactly $0.0)...
>
> Try convincing someone to use Torque instead of their $200,000
> EJB server it
> is like trying to drive your hand through a 6' wall of steel...
>
> ug...
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
> Cell: 415-595-9965 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596
>
> Give a man a flame and keep him warm for the night. Set him on
> fire and keep
> him warm for the rest of his life.
>
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RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Alex McLintock]

> From: Randy Layman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 5:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!
.
>   I think that there needs to be more companies out there supporting
> the OSS projects, and those that do it need to get more visibility in front
> of the managers and vice presidents so that when someone suggests using them
> they don't say "I've never heard of them"
> 
>   Randy

I'd like my company to be such a company - and would like to hear from Londoners
who use Apache/Jakarta software. I currently do web consulting and use Apache
server, FOP, Xerces, Xalan, Tomcat, Turbine, Jyve, (Jetspeed - which I am phasing
on my Books site out in favour of Slashcode), etc etc etc.



http://www.OWAL.co.uk/

Since this might sound too commercial for the list feel free to email me directly
to chat more about what a OSS consultancy should offer.

I also have ideas about getting OSS publicity which I am happy to discuss if you 
can think of the appropriate place.

Alex


=
Alex McLintock[EMAIL PROTECTED]Open Source Consultancy in London
OpenWeb Analysts Ltd, http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ 
SF and Computing Book News and Reviews: http://news.diversebooks.com/
Get Your XML T-Shirt  at http://www.inversity.co.uk/


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Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
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RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Terry Mullett]

It's a bit more than that. High end servers also often package an app
framework and a gaggle of guys who develop the application for you, if their
salesman can get far enough in the door. They either have their own
professional services divisions and/or partnerships with externals
(PriceWaterhouse Cooper, Accenture, IBM Global Services and the like) who
are "certified" on the app servers and the app frameworks. They also walk in
with OO methodology and project management consultants who can talk
six-sigma, ISO-9001, SEI-CMM and the rest of that. It's naive to believe
corporate managers (especially in the current economic environment) are
stupidly and wantonly spending money, but these other things really help
them feel safe about their investments.

On one recent gig where I was helping a company choose an app server, one
the deciding factors turned out to be the financial stability of the
vendors...

In the meantime some open source seems to be making its way into that world.
Broadvision embeds a modification of Tomcat as their web container, and all
the admin app is build on Struts. Someone from HP Bluestone once let slip to
me that they use Struts significantly.

The lesson I take from it all is that the web app as-such (and so much more
so the server gear chosen) is only a small part of a bigger picture. Not
that I think the gear and consulting I've seen come with these packages is
worth the money spent necessarilly, but the motivations I think are a lot
less about money than they are about due dilligence.

Cheers
T

-Original Message-
From: Randy Layman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 5:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!




> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:14 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!
>
>
> Kevin Burton wrote:
> >
> > It is totally illogical isn't it?  The only only
> explanation is one my
> > grandfather put forth.  They are all masochists!
>
> I have another theory.  Warning: you won't like it.
>
> Try building jetspeed with turbine-3.
>
> EJB and JSP may suck, but if you use them, you don't have to
> rewrite your
> application every six months.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>

Here's another thought:  (you probably won't like this one either)
they have people there to pretend to answer your support questions.  When
someone buys one of these packages they usually get some form of support and
offers of training classes so that administrators and developers can sit in
a room for a week and be spoon fed instructions on how their package works
(which most people could learn from a manual in half the time).

That's the argument that I have to face every time I try and sell an
OSS package to a client or management - who will be there to help my
technicians/support staff/other developers?  Who will teach them how to use
it?  Most managers don't want to hear about a mailing list with hundreds or
thousands of subscribers, they want a company that they can blame and/or sue
if something goes terribly wrong.  Software Vendors have done a great job of
implying that they are more liable than the OSS projects while getting
legislation (here in the US, maybe elsewhere) passed that makes their
liability just about equal.

I think that there needs to be more companies out there supporting
the OSS projects, and those that do it need to get more visibility in front
of the managers and vice presidents so that when someone suggests using them
they don't say "I've never heard of them"

Randy

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RE: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Randy Layman]

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:14 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!
> 
> 
> Kevin Burton wrote:
> >
> > It is totally illogical isn't it?  The only only 
> explanation is one my
> > grandfather put forth.  They are all masochists!
> 
> I have another theory.  Warning: you won't like it.
> 
> Try building jetspeed with turbine-3.
> 
> EJB and JSP may suck, but if you use them, you don't have to 
> rewrite your
> application every six months.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 

Here's another thought:  (you probably won't like this one either)
they have people there to pretend to answer your support questions.  When
someone buys one of these packages they usually get some form of support and
offers of training classes so that administrators and developers can sit in
a room for a week and be spoon fed instructions on how their package works
(which most people could learn from a manual in half the time).

That's the argument that I have to face every time I try and sell an
OSS package to a client or management - who will be there to help my
technicians/support staff/other developers?  Who will teach them how to use
it?  Most managers don't want to hear about a mailing list with hundreds or
thousands of subscribers, they want a company that they can blame and/or sue
if something goes terribly wrong.  Software Vendors have done a great job of
implying that they are more liable than the OSS projects while getting
legislation (here in the US, maybe elsewhere) passed that makes their
liability just about equal.

I think that there needs to be more companies out there supporting
the OSS projects, and those that do it need to get more visibility in front
of the managers and vice presidents so that when someone suggests using them
they don't say "I've never heard of them"

Randy

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Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Sam Ruby]

Kevin Burton wrote:
>
> It is totally illogical isn't it?  The only only explanation is one my
> grandfather put forth.  They are all masochists!

I have another theory.  Warning: you won't like it.

Try building jetspeed with turbine-3.

EJB and JSP may suck, but if you use them, you don't have to rewrite your
application every six months.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> on 8/23/01 4:23 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Try convincing someone to use Torque instead of their $200,000 EJB
> > server  it is like trying to drive your hand through a 6' wall of
> > steel...
> 
> Or Torque instead of TopLink, which I'm hearing has 5/6 digit pricing now, and
> is very similar in API and features to Torque.
> 
> The mentality of these people is astonishing sometimes.

It is totally illogical isn't it?  The only only explanation is one my
grandfather put forth.  They are all masochists!

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Cell: 415-595-9965 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 

Iron rusts from disuse, stagnant water loses its purity, and in cold weather
becomes frozen: even so does inaction sap the vigors of the mind.
  -- Leonardo da Vinci
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Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Jon Stevens]

on 8/23/01 4:23 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Try convincing someone to use Torque instead of their $200,000 EJB server
> it
> is like trying to drive your hand through a 6' wall of steel...

Or Torque instead of TopLink, which I'm hearing has 5/6 digit pricing now,
and is very similar in API and features to Torque.

The mentality of these people is astonishing sometimes.

-jon


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Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Kevin A. Burton]

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Sigh, I have been saying this for well over a year now...


> Companies wasted more than $1 billion between 1998 and 2000 on high-end
> Java application servers that provide far more capabilities than are
> needed on most Web sites, says research firm Gartner. And, if the trend
> continues, Gartner estimates that companies could throw away another $2
> billion from 2001 to 2003.


It is funny... I think that the problem is the typical pointy haired boss
syndrome.  You get these morons who get promoted outside of their level of
expertise and have to make a technical decision.  In order to justify their
salary they pick the most expensive technology available.  (look how smart I
am!)

Of course the CEO eats it up because he can brag to the investors that they
spent $500,000 on Oracle and EJB licensing... (because their technology is so
amazing)

ug...

The hard part is trying to convince someone that Apache technologies are
superior.  (these cost exactly $0.0)...

Try convincing someone to use Torque instead of their $200,000 EJB server it
is like trying to drive your hand through a 6' wall of steel...

ug...

Kevin

-- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Cell: 415-595-9965 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 

Give a man a flame and keep him warm for the night. Set him on fire and keep
him warm for the rest of his life.

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[OT] Servlets better for most companies!

[Jon Stevens]

Sigh, I have been saying this for well over a year now...



Next I need to just convince people that JSP sucks and I'm sure that Gartner
will eventually write an article about it.

:-)

-jon

---
http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20010822S0001

Those damn expensive EJB servers!

$1B Wasted On High-End Servers, Gartner Says

Companies wasted more than $1 billion between 1998 and 2000 on high-end
Java application servers that provide far more capabilities than are
needed on most Web sites, says research firm Gartner. And, if the trend
continues, Gartner estimates that companies could throw away another $2
billion from 2001 to 2003.

Confusion over the appropriate use of the software needed to power Web
applications has led many companies to bypass low-end application
servers that meet most requirements and cost 10 times less than the
high-end products, Gartner says. In the last three years, the cheaper
models were sufficient for 80% of the projects in a typical midsize
company, yet 60% of the deployments were high-end.

Most business Web-site applications are focused on delivering content to
the user and are therefore best run on low-end products that support
servlets and Java Server Pages, technology best suited for those kinds
of applications. Examples of such application servers include Enhydra,
an open-source product; iPlanet Web Server from the Sun Microsystems/AOL
Time Warner alliance; WebLogic Express from BEA Systems; and WebSphere
Standard Edition from IBM.

High-end application servers are intended for large transaction volume
and, therefore, offer more advanced capabilities, such as load
balancing, fault tolerance, transaction management, and system
management. In addition, the expensive software typically supports the
Enterprise JavaBean component model and Java messaging architecture,
which are important for reusing application business logic across
various business processes and clients. Businesses should use a high-end
server handling transactions, back-end integration, and high volume in
conjunction with low-end products running less complicated applications.

"People need to take control and be responsible for their (computer)
architecture and the choices they make," says Gartner analyst David
Smith. "They need to understand that while they may have the requirement
to have the capability of EJB for one aspect, that doesn't mean that all
the different tiers in their system have to have the high-end
application server. They can use the low-end ones to do JSPs, servlets
and make calls to the EJB on the high-end one."

-- Antone Gonsalves 

-- End of Forwarded Message


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