RE: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-25 Thread robert burrell donkin
On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 18:00 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2006, Bill Barker wrote:
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



> >> Backwards incompatible shouldn't be a worry (imo), that's what major
> >> version numbers are for - but if you mean that Tomcat would
> >> need specific
> >> deep down customisations, that does sound like a problem. A
> >> realization
> >> that the component design just doesn't work anymore.
> >
> > Backwards incompatible was never really a big concern.  The discussion on
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] was more focused on the fact that [modeler] doesn't have a
> > community, so there wouldn't be enough people for 3 +1s to release it.  So
> > far, there aren't any special Tomcat-specific customizations in Tomcat's
> > fork.  There is work to reduce it's footprint, but that would just make it a
> > 2.0 version.
> 
> In terms of community - due to history you're all still Jakarta committers 
> afaik and mostly on the PMC, so lots of +1s there. 

 we had a bit of a crisis of confidence over commons releases late last
year but i think that we're over that now. we're now using the correct
voting scheme which is binding votes for all pmc'ers (no more component
specific voting). 

> Plus with the recent move to mostly jakarta-wide svn authentication, you also 
> now have svn 
> access.

+1

if it's just a push towards a release that's needed,  i'm willing to
help out if there's anything useful i can do. 

> So in terms of future direction, I don't think there's anything stopping 
> Tomcat from being the driving part of the community for modeler. Struts 
> definitely does that with some of the components that it is dependent on.
> 
> The original idea of Commons as I understand it was as a place for Jakarta 
> projects to come together. The diaspora out of Jakarta has lessened that 
> and I think we should be expanding to thinking about it as a place for 
> Apache projects to come together. It definitely helps that our committer 
> based covers 25% of the ASF already :)

+1

- robert



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RE: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Henri Yandell



On Wed, 24 May 2006, Bill Barker wrote:





-Original Message-
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:26 PM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Commons-modeler release request



On Wed, 24 May 2006, Yoav Shapira wrote:


This is indicative of a larger problem with Commons I

think - why are

people not attracted into getting involved with the

commons source and

instead have their own versions?


Not sure.  With modeler, and dbcp, and maybe other commons projects,
they were spun out of the original project (tomcat) in

order to create

a community around them, make them more generic, allow

other projects

(within Apache and outside) to use them easily, etc.  But over time,
for whatever reasons, these didn't happen with modeler.

Now from the Tomcat perspective, we have a dilemma: we can't make
backwards-incompatible changes to modeler that are very specific to
Tomcat because then we break the "contract" that was made

when modeler

became its own component.


Backwards incompatible shouldn't be a worry (imo), that's what major
version numbers are for - but if you mean that Tomcat would
need specific
deep down customisations, that does sound like a problem. A
realization
that the component design just doesn't work anymore.



Backwards incompatible was never really a big concern.  The discussion on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] was more focused on the fact that [modeler] doesn't have a
community, so there wouldn't be enough people for 3 +1s to release it.  So
far, there aren't any special Tomcat-specific customizations in Tomcat's
fork.  There is work to reduce it's footprint, but that would just make it a
2.0 version.


In terms of community - due to history you're all still Jakarta committers 
afaik and mostly on the PMC, so lots of +1s there. Plus with the recent 
move to mostly jakarta-wide svn authentication, you also now have svn 
access.


So in terms of future direction, I don't think there's anything stopping 
Tomcat from being the driving part of the community for modeler. Struts 
definitely does that with some of the components that it is dependent on.


The original idea of Commons as I understand it was as a place for Jakarta 
projects to come together. The diaspora out of Jakarta has lessened that 
and I think we should be expanding to thinking about it as a place for 
Apache projects to come together. It definitely helps that our committer 
based covers 25% of the ASF already :)


Hen

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RE: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Bill Barker
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:26 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Commons-modeler release request
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 24 May 2006, Yoav Shapira wrote:
> 
> >> This is indicative of a larger problem with Commons I 
> think - why are
> >> people not attracted into getting involved with the 
> commons source and
> >> instead have their own versions?
> >
> > Not sure.  With modeler, and dbcp, and maybe other commons projects,
> > they were spun out of the original project (tomcat) in 
> order to create
> > a community around them, make them more generic, allow 
> other projects
> > (within Apache and outside) to use them easily, etc.  But over time,
> > for whatever reasons, these didn't happen with modeler.
> >
> > Now from the Tomcat perspective, we have a dilemma: we can't make
> > backwards-incompatible changes to modeler that are very specific to
> > Tomcat because then we break the "contract" that was made 
> when modeler
> > became its own component.
> 
> Backwards incompatible shouldn't be a worry (imo), that's what major 
> version numbers are for - but if you mean that Tomcat would 
> need specific 
> deep down customisations, that does sound like a problem. A 
> realization 
> that the component design just doesn't work anymore.
> 

Backwards incompatible was never really a big concern.  The discussion on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] was more focused on the fact that [modeler] doesn't have a
community, so there wouldn't be enough people for 3 +1s to release it.  So
far, there aren't any special Tomcat-specific customizations in Tomcat's
fork.  There is work to reduce it's footprint, but that would just make it a
2.0 version.

> Does Geronimo use modeler independently, or via Tomcat?
> 

I believe that Geronimo only uses [modeler] via Tomcat.  

> Hen
> 
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> 
> 



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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Henri Yandell



On Wed, 24 May 2006, Yoav Shapira wrote:


This is indicative of a larger problem with Commons I think - why are
people not attracted into getting involved with the commons source and
instead have their own versions?


Not sure.  With modeler, and dbcp, and maybe other commons projects,
they were spun out of the original project (tomcat) in order to create
a community around them, make them more generic, allow other projects
(within Apache and outside) to use them easily, etc.  But over time,
for whatever reasons, these didn't happen with modeler.

Now from the Tomcat perspective, we have a dilemma: we can't make
backwards-incompatible changes to modeler that are very specific to
Tomcat because then we break the "contract" that was made when modeler
became its own component.


Backwards incompatible shouldn't be a worry (imo), that's what major 
version numbers are for - but if you mean that Tomcat would need specific 
deep down customisations, that does sound like a problem. A realization 
that the component design just doesn't work anymore.


Does Geronimo use modeler independently, or via Tomcat?

Hen

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Yoav Shapira

Hola,


I'm more surprised to hear that Tomcat have a fork of modeler; I thought
it was Tomcat that created it in the first place.


Yeah, it was Tomcat that created it in the first place.  The fork is
very very recent IIRC, and an imperfect development due to a larger
problem, as you wrote:


This is indicative of a larger problem with Commons I think - why are
people not attracted into getting involved with the commons source and
instead have their own versions?


Not sure.  With modeler, and dbcp, and maybe other commons projects,
they were spun out of the original project (tomcat) in order to create
a community around them, make them more generic, allow other projects
(within Apache and outside) to use them easily, etc.  But over time,
for whatever reasons, these didn't happen with modeler.

Now from the Tomcat perspective, we have a dilemma: we can't make
backwards-incompatible changes to modeler that are very specific to
Tomcat because then we break the "contract" that was made when modeler
became its own component.


What can be changed to not scare people away?


Not sure.

Yoav

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Henri Yandell



On Wed, 24 May 2006, David Jencks wrote:

I see that this issue is now in JIRA I couldn't find jira/modeler when I 
filed the bugs, was I blind or have these been imported from bugzilla 
recently?


We moved to JIRA a week ago - so very recent :)

Hen

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Henri Yandell


I'm more surprised to hear that Tomcat have a fork of modeler; I thought 
it was Tomcat that created it in the first place.


This is indicative of a larger problem with Commons I think - why are 
people not attracted into getting involved with the commons source and 
instead have their own versions?


What can be changed to not scare people away?

Hen

On Wed, 24 May 2006, Will Glass-Husain wrote:

I'm surprised that this effort is not a subproject of Tomcat or Geronimo. 
Maybe there'd be less frustration all around if it was adopted by one or the 
other.


WILL

Bill Barker wrote:
I've been pretty much the only maintainer of [modeler] for a very long 
time.

Since it basically has no community, I'm not particularly in favor of a
release that will have little oversight.  So -0 from me.

However, before a release, MODELER-15 should probably be fixed (e.g. by
deprecating the DOM source and using the [digester] source instead, like in
Tomcat's fork of [modeler]). 


-Original Message-
From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 
24, 2006 9:12 AM

To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Commons-modeler release request

+1, assuming normal voting is done on jakarta-commons-dev (in case people 
are not on general).
Anyone know of a maintainer for commons-modeller or is it kind-of dormant 
at this point ?


Mvgr,
Martin

David Jencks wrote:

The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last  released 
version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, 
released 10 aug 

2003.

These problems are detailed at 
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ 
GERONIMO-1999 and 

http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=39521

Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed 
a long  time 
ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently 
 provided a 

patch that appears to fix it.

We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would 
really like to 
use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather 
than having 
to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from   that. 
Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if 
it appears 

OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?

Many thanks,
david jencks







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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread David Jencks


On May 24, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Dennis Lundberg wrote:


David Jencks wrote:
The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last  
released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10  
aug 2003.
These problems are detailed at http://issues.apache.org/jira/ 
browse/GERONIMO-1999 and http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/ 
show_bug.cgi?id=39521
Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long  
time ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently  
provided a patch that appears to fix it.
We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like  
to use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than  
having to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom  
jar from  that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it  
if it appears OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons- 
modeler out?


How do people feel about upgrading the minimum Java requirement  
from 1.2 to 1.3 for modeler? I had a look at MODELER-3 [1] and have  
found a solution for it, but the solution requires that we upgrade  
one of the dependencies, and the new version is for Java 1.3.  
Although I'm not sure that it is a runtime dependency on Java 1.3,  
it might be a compile time dependency.


geronimo would be fine with a 1.4 requirement :-).

I see that this issue is now in JIRA I couldn't find jira/modeler  
when I filed the bugs, was I blind or have these been imported from  
bugzilla recently?  I think someone should close the jira copy of the  
synchronization bug (MODELER-2).  Who?  Should I attach my patch to  
the jira copy as well as the bugzilla copy?


thanks
david jencks



[1] http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MODELER-3

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Will Glass-Husain
I'm surprised that this effort is not a subproject of Tomcat or 
Geronimo.  Maybe there'd be less frustration all around if it was 
adopted by one or the other.


WILL

Bill Barker wrote:

I've been pretty much the only maintainer of [modeler] for a very long time.
Since it basically has no community, I'm not particularly in favor of a
release that will have little oversight.  So -0 from me.

However, before a release, MODELER-15 should probably be fixed (e.g. by
deprecating the DOM source and using the [digester] source instead, like in
Tomcat's fork of [modeler]).   

  

-Original Message-
From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:12 AM

To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Commons-modeler release request

+1, assuming normal voting is done on jakarta-commons-dev (in 
case people are not on general).
Anyone know of a maintainer for commons-modeller or is it 
kind-of dormant at this point ?


Mvgr,
Martin

David Jencks wrote:

The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last  
released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, 
  
released 10 aug  


2003.

These problems are detailed at 
  
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ 

GERONIMO-1999 and 
  

http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=39521

Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed 
  
a long  time 

ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently 
  
 provided a 


patch that appears to fix it.

We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would 
  
really like to  

use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather 
  
than having  

to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from   
that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if 
  
it appears  


OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?

Many thanks,
david jencks





  

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RE: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Bill Barker
I've been pretty much the only maintainer of [modeler] for a very long time.
Since it basically has no community, I'm not particularly in favor of a
release that will have little oversight.  So -0 from me.

However, before a release, MODELER-15 should probably be fixed (e.g. by
deprecating the DOM source and using the [digester] source instead, like in
Tomcat's fork of [modeler]).   

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:12 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Commons-modeler release request
> 
> +1, assuming normal voting is done on jakarta-commons-dev (in 
> case people are not on general).
> Anyone know of a maintainer for commons-modeller or is it 
> kind-of dormant at this point ?
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> David Jencks wrote:
> > The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last  
> > released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, 
> released 10 aug  
> > 2003.
> > 
> > These problems are detailed at 
> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ 
> > GERONIMO-1999 and 
> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=39521
> > 
> > Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed 
> a long  time 
> > ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently 
>  provided a 
> > patch that appears to fix it.
> > 
> > We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would 
> really like to  
> > use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather 
> than having  
> > to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from   
> > that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if 
> it appears  
> > OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?
> > 
> > Many thanks,
> > david jencks
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Dennis Lundberg

David Jencks wrote:
The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last released 
version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10 aug 2003.


These problems are detailed at 
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/GERONIMO-1999 and 
http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=39521


Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long time 
ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently provided a 
patch that appears to fix it.


We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like to 
use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than having to  
copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from  that.  
Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if it appears OK, and 
work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?


How do people feel about upgrading the minimum Java requirement from 1.2 
to 1.3 for modeler? I had a look at MODELER-3 [1] and have found a 
solution for it, but the solution requires that we upgrade one of the 
dependencies, and the new version is for Java 1.3. Although I'm not sure 
that it is a runtime dependency on Java 1.3, it might be a compile time 
dependency.


[1] http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MODELER-3

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Yoav Shapira

Hola,
I believe a couple of the Tomcat committers (Costin for sure, another
one or two maybe) are interested in commons-modeller, its maintenance,
and its future.

Yoav

On 5/24/06, Martin van den Bemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

+1, assuming normal voting is done on jakarta-commons-dev (in case people are 
not on general).
Anyone know of a maintainer for commons-modeller or is it kind-of dormant at 
this point ?

Mvgr,
Martin

David Jencks wrote:
> The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last
> released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10 aug
> 2003.
>
> These problems are detailed at http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> GERONIMO-1999 and http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=39521
>
> Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long  time
> ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently  provided a
> patch that appears to fix it.
>
> We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like to
> use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than having
> to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from
> that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if it appears
> OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?
>
> Many thanks,
> david jencks
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Martin van den Bemt

+1, assuming normal voting is done on jakarta-commons-dev (in case people are 
not on general).
Anyone know of a maintainer for commons-modeller or is it kind-of dormant at 
this point ?

Mvgr,
Martin

David Jencks wrote:
The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last  
released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10 aug  
2003.


These problems are detailed at http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ 
GERONIMO-1999 and http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=39521


Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long  time 
ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently  provided a 
patch that appears to fix it.


We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like to  
use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than having  
to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from   
that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if it appears  
OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?


Many thanks,
david jencks




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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Yoav Shapira

Hi,
+1.

I've reviewed the patch and it seems like it would fix the issue.
However, I haven't actually tested the fix: a unit test would be
great.  Not required for a 1.2 release, but great nonetheless and
undoubtedly useful in the future to Tomcat, Geronimo, and other
modeler users if they exist.

Yoav

On 5/24/06, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Team,
Am willing to do the necessary. Can we have some +1's?
Here's my +1 for a 1.2 release.

David,
Please find a dated jar in the snapshot maven repo that you can use in
the interim:
http://people.apache.org/repository/commons-modeler/jars/

thanks,
dims

On 5/24/06, David Jencks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last
> released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10 aug
> 2003.
>
> These problems are detailed at http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> GERONIMO-1999 and http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?
> id=39521
>
> Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long
> time ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently
> provided a patch that appears to fix it.
>
> We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like to
> use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than having
> to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from
> that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if it appears
> OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?
>
> Many thanks,
> david jencks
>
>
>
>
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Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/

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Yoav Shapira
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1 Mifflin Place, Suite 310
Cambridge, MA, USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.yoavshapira.com

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Re: Commons-modeler release request

2006-05-24 Thread Davanum Srinivas

Team,
Am willing to do the necessary. Can we have some +1's?
Here's my +1 for a 1.2 release.

David,
Please find a dated jar in the snapshot maven repo that you can use in
the interim:
http://people.apache.org/repository/commons-modeler/jars/

thanks,
dims

On 5/24/06, David Jencks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The Geronimo-Tomcat integration has some problems with the last
released version I can find, commons-modeler-1.1.jar, released 10 aug
2003.

These problems are detailed at http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
GERONIMO-1999 and http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?
id=39521

Briefly, an incompatibility with the jsr-77 spec was fixed a long
time ago, and we've found a synchronization problem and recently
provided a patch that appears to fix it.

We're getting the Geronimo 1.1 release ready and would really like to
use an officially released jar of commons-modeler rather than having
to  copy the code into geronimo svn and produce a custom jar from
that.  Could anyone take a look at the patch, apply it if it appears
OK, and work on getting a 1.2 release of commons-modeler out?

Many thanks,
david jencks




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Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/

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