Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Jon Stevens]

on 3/23/01 1:16 AM, "Gunnar R|nning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So where did _you_ borrow actions from. GoF maybe ? Seriously while Turbine
> might be thr right thing for some people, it is not the right thing for
> others. I got serious problems with tying my applications to a product
> where there is no commitment to keeping APIs stable. There is no release
> yet either. 

There have been tagged releases of Turbine based on the TDK and there have
been hundreds of people relying on those tagged versions (including the
jetspeed project).

> It may also be worth taking a look at Barracuda from the Enhydra camp. I
> haven't used it myself yet, but it looks pretty promising.

Explore all your options. I highly recommend it.

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Jon Stevens]

on 3/22/01 10:48 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But if the best argument for Turbine is
> that "JSP sucks balls", I'd keep looking  for some rational reasoning if I
> were you.  :-)



That is about 10 pages of clearly laid out arguments...some of which are
going to be published in a book that will most likely sell at least a few
hundred thousand copies...Don't forget Craig, you also proofed those
chapters...

> For example, Jon (primary
> developer of Turbine) doesn't think much of EJBs either, so plan on having
> to deal with those kinds of complexities yourself if you need that type
> of functionality.

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that the framework isn't
going to support it...



-jon


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Gunnar R|nning]

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Quite a lot of the concepts in Struts are simply borrowed from patterns that
> Turbine has been using from day one. Actions are a good example of that.

So where did _you_ borrow actions from. GoF maybe ? Seriously while Turbine
might be thr right thing for some people, it is not the right thing for
others. I got serious problems with tying my applications to a product
where there is no commitment to keeping APIs stable. There is no release
yet either. 

It may also be worth taking a look at Barracuda from the Enhydra camp. I
haven't used it myself yet, but it looks pretty promising. 

regards, 

Gunnar

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Kuster, Egon]

don't worry I am actually interested in the abilities of jetspeed and
therefore will most likely use the turbine engine MVC instead of struts. But
I am thinking of using struts to create the portlets within whole portal as
I like the idea of using beans for different things. Too many bloody bits
and pieces too little time.

I was initially only looking at struts but then I saw jetspeed which used
turbine and now I have to go and read up on turbine and jetspeed in more
detail.

Egon Kuster

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2001 5:19 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and
bears... oh my




On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Kuster, Egon wrote:

> Thanks for the welcome. now it is time to start learning how to use
turbine.
> Fun.
> 

Turbine + Jetspeed is a great combination if your application needs the
kinds of features they offer.  But if the best argument for Turbine is
that "JSP sucks balls", I'd keep looking  for some rational reasoning if I
were you.  :-)

Seriously, every framework has sweet spots and areas they do not
focus on.  You owe it to yourself to evaluate your own needs against those
capabilities.  The best way to do that is prototype based on your own
needs.

Oh, by the way, don't forget to decide how the frameworks you look at are
going to scale as your needs increase.  For example, Jon (primary
developer of Turbine) doesn't think much of EJBs either, so plan on having
to deal with those kinds of complexities yourself if you need that type
of functionality.

> Egon Kuster
> 

Craig McClanahan (primary developer of Struts)


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears...oh my

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Kuster, Egon wrote:

> Thanks for the welcome. now it is time to start learning how to use turbine.
> Fun.
> 

Turbine + Jetspeed is a great combination if your application needs the
kinds of features they offer.  But if the best argument for Turbine is
that "JSP sucks balls", I'd keep looking  for some rational reasoning if I
were you.  :-)

Seriously, every framework has sweet spots and areas they do not
focus on.  You owe it to yourself to evaluate your own needs against those
capabilities.  The best way to do that is prototype based on your own
needs.

Oh, by the way, don't forget to decide how the frameworks you look at are
going to scale as your needs increase.  For example, Jon (primary
developer of Turbine) doesn't think much of EJBs either, so plan on having
to deal with those kinds of complexities yourself if you need that type
of functionality.

> Egon Kuster
> 

Craig McClanahan (primary developer of Struts)


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Kuster, Egon]

Thanks for the welcome. now it is time to start learning how to use turbine.
Fun.

Egon Kuster

-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2001 1:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and
bears... oh my


on 3/22/01 6:12 PM, "Kuster, Egon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> yeah I think that I will be going with the turbine as the driver, then
> jetspeed for the portals and using velocity and cocoon for the producing
of
> the content and maybe some struts to create the portlet plugins. It is
just
> going to be a little bit of a nightmare trying to plug all these pieces
> together and get them working. Should be lots of fun though.
> 
> Egon Kuster

Welcome to the party! :-)

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Kuster, Egon]

yeah I think that I will be going with the turbine as the driver, then
jetspeed for the portals and using velocity and cocoon for the producing of
the content and maybe some struts to create the portlet plugins. It is just
going to be a little bit of a nightmare trying to plug all these pieces
together and get them working. Should be lots of fun though.

Egon Kuster

-Original Message-
From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2001 12:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and
bears... oh my


At 12:06  23/3/01 +1030, Kuster, Egon wrote:
>I have read the emails and discover that turbine and struts are basically
>the same thing competing with each other therefore I have a few more
>questions concerning struts and tubine:
>
>which one has been around longer?
>Which is more mature?

you are entering dangerous territory here ;) 

I have only used turbine before and have found that it was probably the
best web application framework around. You can integrate with most
technologies (templating like webmacro/velocity and jsp and programatic via
ecs or python etc) and it has many services available to it. If you are not
wedded to jsp and you are doing web applications then it is your best bet.

If you like jsp then struts may be an option. Combine it with the taglibs
and I here that is rapidly getting good in terms of features. It is no
where near as old or mature as turbine but it has smart developers so it
should be good. 

Another option to consider is Cocoon2 from xml.apache.org. It is a xml
centric publishing framework. As such its web-applications support is
minimal but it has very very good publishing facilities. Unfortunately it
requires a very good knowledge of XML to use though.

>What I am trying to develop is a large (I mean LARGE) enterprise portal
>where the information can be anything including geospatial, textural, video
>and others. THis will have pluggable web components into the system I will
>be extending one of the frameworks either struts or turbine for my purposes
>and I am trying to figure out which way to go by asking a few people their
>opinions as they have already played around with some of these frameworks.

This sounds like jetspeed is what you want. I am not sure what level of
development it is currently under but it covers basically the same ground.

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Peter Donald]

At 12:06  23/3/01 +1030, Kuster, Egon wrote:
>I have read the emails and discover that turbine and struts are basically
>the same thing competing with each other therefore I have a few more
>questions concerning struts and tubine:
>
>which one has been around longer?
>Which is more mature?

you are entering dangerous territory here ;) 

I have only used turbine before and have found that it was probably the
best web application framework around. You can integrate with most
technologies (templating like webmacro/velocity and jsp and programatic via
ecs or python etc) and it has many services available to it. If you are not
wedded to jsp and you are doing web applications then it is your best bet.

If you like jsp then struts may be an option. Combine it with the taglibs
and I here that is rapidly getting good in terms of features. It is no
where near as old or mature as turbine but it has smart developers so it
should be good. 

Another option to consider is Cocoon2 from xml.apache.org. It is a xml
centric publishing framework. As such its web-applications support is
minimal but it has very very good publishing facilities. Unfortunately it
requires a very good knowledge of XML to use though.

>What I am trying to develop is a large (I mean LARGE) enterprise portal
>where the information can be anything including geospatial, textural, video
>and others. THis will have pluggable web components into the system I will
>be extending one of the frameworks either struts or turbine for my purposes
>and I am trying to figure out which way to go by asking a few people their
>opinions as they have already played around with some of these frameworks.

This sounds like jetspeed is what you want. I am not sure what level of
development it is currently under but it covers basically the same ground.

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Kuster, Egon]

I have read the emails and discover that turbine and struts are basically
the same thing competing with each other therefore I have a few more
questions concerning struts and tubine:

which one has been around longer?
Which is more mature?

Thanks for the help I am just trying to get my head around all the different
programs running within Jakarta and seeing which ones I should use in my new
product that I am developing. I currenlty use apache httpd and tomcat and I
discovered struts and thought that was the way to go, then I saw the turbine
and velocity and went HMMM they also sound interesting.

What I am trying to develop is a large (I mean LARGE) enterprise portal
where the information can be anything including geospatial, textural, video
and others. THis will have pluggable web components into the system I will
be extending one of the frameworks either struts or turbine for my purposes
and I am trying to figure out which way to go by asking a few people their
opinions as they have already played around with some of these frameworks.

Egon Kuster
Defence Science & Technology Organisation
Information Technology Division
Information Exploitation Group
Phone: +61 8 8259 5175
Fax: +61 8 8259 5619
Mobile: +61 401 676 479


-Original Message-
From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2001 11:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and
bears... oh my


"Kuster, Egon" wrote:
> Is anyone able to tell me how struts, velocity, turbine, and jetspeed all
> fit together as they all seem to be doing very similar things. Why should
I
> use one over the other etc...

Struts and Turbine/Velocity are really serving different audiences. For
some comparisons see

< http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jakarta.apache.org/msg00495.html >

<
http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-user@jakarta.apache.org/msg03206.html
>

< http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html  >
 
> Shouldn't these different projects work a little closer together to create
a
> more coherent single package which incorporates the best of each?

Many of the products work closely together. Jetspeed is actually a good
example of several Apache products being used together. 

In my current project, I'm using several Jakarta technologies together,
including components from Struts, Taglibs, RegExp, and Tomcat.

But the real answer is that since this is a volunteer organization, we
can't simply mandate that all the products fit together like they were
cut from the same jigsaw. The volunteers who write the code make the
decisions, based on their own experience, and feedback from other
developers and users. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 737-3463.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Peter Donald]

At 10:31  23/3/01 +1030, Kuster, Egon wrote:
>Is anyone able to tell me how struts, velocity, turbine, and jetspeed all
>fit together as they all seem to be doing very similar things. Why should I
>use one over the other etc...

depends on what you want. 

>Shouldn't these different projects work a little closer together to create a
>more coherent single package which incorporates the best of each?

Nice idea - thou the practicalisites of doing so is not yet here (thou
there is an attempt to start the trend with a new project "commons"). The
main reason is that the cost of communication atm is higher than the
expected returns of cooperating. 

IMHO (ie I doubt it is shared by others and I are not involved in any of
these projects ;]) turbine should fracture a little into different
products. Basically break apart each layer of turbine into more modular
components. Then struts/cocoon2 (from xml.apache.org) should base their
applications on the core of turbine. 

Jetspeed is something that is built on top of turbine (and C2???) while
velocity is something that can be used in conjunction with turbine (or
not). I am not really sure whats struts is but my guess is jsp-specific
framework (where turbine is general servlet-framework).

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Struts, velocity, turbine, jetspeed, lions, tigers and bears... oh my

[Ted Husted]

"Kuster, Egon" wrote:
> Is anyone able to tell me how struts, velocity, turbine, and jetspeed all
> fit together as they all seem to be doing very similar things. Why should I
> use one over the other etc...

Struts and Turbine/Velocity are really serving different audiences. For
some comparisons see

< http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jakarta.apache.org/msg00495.html >

<
http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-user@jakarta.apache.org/msg03206.html
>

< http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html  >
 
> Shouldn't these different projects work a little closer together to create a
> more coherent single package which incorporates the best of each?

Many of the products work closely together. Jetspeed is actually a good
example of several Apache products being used together. 

In my current project, I'm using several Jakarta technologies together,
including components from Struts, Taglibs, RegExp, and Tomcat.

But the real answer is that since this is a volunteer organization, we
can't simply mandate that all the products fit together like they were
cut from the same jigsaw. The volunteers who write the code make the
decisions, based on their own experience, and feedback from other
developers and users. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 737-3463.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]