Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[james]

On 12/04/2016 10:10 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote:

On 05/12/16 03:06, james wrote:

On 12/04/2016 06:49 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:

I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
"proper" accounting software applicable to small and large
businesses. I
know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally
accessible. I
would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!

Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
all!).

The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.

Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
some automation:
- I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
  entries, but can't yet.
- Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
  the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.



All of that is routine and easy with GNUcash


hth,
James




Grabbing the bull by the horns here, any willing/able volunteers to aid
robbat2 getting ledger ported to gnucash and up-to-speed maybe? I can't
really volunteer as I'm not good with finance esp. not US and have one
too many pans in the fire right now...! :)




Well, the key skill that is needed is someone who has the vision of what 
the 'chart of accounts' needs to look like for a 501(c) gentoo 
organization. The gnucash-user list is full of helpful folks that will

help with migration, including numerous scripts that automate conversion
from other accounting systems to gnucash. Really the next step would be 
for Robatt2 figure out and list what he wants. I'm already subscribe to
gnucash-user, so if a few other folks did likewise it would get the ball 
rolling. One could even state the type of 501(c) and ask for a suggested 
list of chart of accounts for that type of business organization, on the 
gnucash-user list. I have already sent robatt2 a coulple of contacts 
that currently run 501(c) organizations on gnucash.



Define what you have and what you want to do, then ask for help on 
gnucash-user list for ideas and guidance. I do not believe that any 
custom programming is needed, but I''m not familiar with the needs of 
501(c) in general, nor any of the gentoo specific needs.



hth,
James



For zlg's benefit .. I wasn't advocating re-writing the social contract
(yet) just questioning whether that may be an unhelpful constraint in
quite an important process, but I sit corrected in that there are libre
solutions to this issue in use in similar environments .. so we just
need to transition ..

2c50 !


I would never use FOSS accounting software because it is FOSS. I use 
gnucash, after working with accountants on dozens of PC based packages
and it is simple the best, flexible, free support and many have custom 
scripts that that share, freely, that makes gnucash my goto package for 
accounting. gnucash does no 'lock in your data' and that is a big deal 
for most organizations. Gnucash makes it easy to do what you want, with 
a robust, double entry system that has countless cool features.



ymmv,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[Ian Stakenvicius]

> On Dec 5, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Ciaran McCreesh  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:47:48 -0800
> Daniel Campbell  wrote:
>> Compliance with what? If others desire Quickbook support, they can
>> make a tool to convert from ledger. There's no good reason for a
>> non-profit, libre software organization to use and depend on
>> proprietary software. Did nobody learn a lesson from BitKeeper?
> 
> Have you checked that the people hosting Gentoo's infrastructure don't
> use any proprietary software anywhere inside their building either? Most
> cleaning companies use a closed source staff scheduling program. It
> would be a terrible violation of the social contract if Gentoo depended
> upon that.
> 

Fortunately Gentoo does not require any cleanliness standards be met at all.  
Otherwise I couldn't be a dev. :P

That is a fairly important distinction here, I think.  If we start using or 
relying on Quickbooks then we are locking into that proprietary 
platform--getting all the historical financials out of Quickbooks and into 
another tool is intentionally hard (I assume--I know it's near impossible with 
Sage).  We are not requiring or accountant to use open tools though, if they 
want to import our data into Quickbooks to do their work, that's up to them, as 
long as we still have the result we need from them.

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:47:48 -0800
Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> Compliance with what? If others desire Quickbook support, they can
> make a tool to convert from ledger. There's no good reason for a
> non-profit, libre software organization to use and depend on
> proprietary software. Did nobody learn a lesson from BitKeeper?

Have you checked that the people hosting Gentoo's infrastructure don't
use any proprietary software anywhere inside their building either? Most
cleaning companies use a closed source staff scheduling program. It
would be a terrible violation of the social contract if Gentoo depended
upon that.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[M. J. Everitt]

On 05/12/16 03:06, james wrote:
> On 12/04/2016 06:49 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:
>>> I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
>>> "proper" accounting software applicable to small and large
>>> businesses. I
>>> know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
>>> support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally
>>> accessible. I
>>> would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
>>> charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
>>> contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!
>> Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
>> variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
>> all!).
>>
>> The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
>> social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.
>>
>> Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
>> some automation:
>> - I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
>>   entries, but can't yet.
>> - Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
>>   the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.
>>
>
> All of that is routine and easy with GNUcash
>
>
> hth,
> James
>
>
>
Grabbing the bull by the horns here, any willing/able volunteers to aid
robbat2 getting ledger ported to gnucash and up-to-speed maybe? I can't
really volunteer as I'm not good with finance esp. not US and have one
too many pans in the fire right now...! :)

For zlg's benefit .. I wasn't advocating re-writing the social contract
(yet) just questioning whether that may be an unhelpful constraint in
quite an important process, but I sit corrected in that there are libre
solutions to this issue in use in similar environments .. so we just
need to transition ..

2c50 !



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Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[james]

On 12/04/2016 06:49 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:

I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
"proper" accounting software applicable to small and large businesses. I
know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally accessible. I
would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!

Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
all!).

The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.

Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
some automation:
- I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
  entries, but can't yet.
- Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
  the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.



All of that is routine and easy with GNUcash


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/04/2016 04:03 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> On 04/12/16 23:49, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:
>>> I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
>>> "proper" accounting software applicable to small and large businesses. I
>>> know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
>>> support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally accessible. I
>>> would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
>>> charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
>>> contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!
>> Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
>> variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
>> all!).
>>
>> The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
>> social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.
>>
>> Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
>> some automation:
>> - I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
>>   entries, but can't yet.
>> - Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
>>   the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.
>>
> Thanks for the clarification, Robin. It may be worth reviewing that
> social contract to allow us better compliance if deemed worthwhile!
> 
> :]
> 
Compliance with what? If others desire Quickbook support, they can make
a tool to convert from ledger. There's no good reason for a non-profit,
libre software organization to use and depend on proprietary software.
Did nobody learn a lesson from BitKeeper?

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6



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Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[james]

On 12/04/2016 05:55 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

(OT accounting systems)



If there is a good GNUCash support for non-profit accounting (which does
differ from small-business accounting, see [2]), and matching
documentation for it, I'm VERY interested to know about it.


Robin,

I posted on on the gnucash list and got some responses. You should join 
that list and get your detailed questions answered. Gnucash has a 
wonderful collection of expertise on that list and they appear to be

many 'non-profits' using gnucash and they are quiet helpful::

I posted this::


On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 6:18 PM james  wrote:
Hello gnucash users.
I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy 
with it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 
501(c)3 non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?

Any and all comments are warmly received.

James


And the private response was::

"At its heart, anything you can do with a pen-and-paper system Double 
Entry Accounting system, you can also do with GnuCash. This includes 
keeping books for a 501(c)(3). Several of us do so.


There are a few things you might want to customize: the "Profit/Loss" 
report is misnamed for a non-profit organization, for instance, and the 
standard business chart of accounts does not match the categories that 
the IRS wants things to be in for the annual tax filing. But those are 
all easy to change."



So just join gnucash-user and get a solution you are happy with.

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[james]

On 12/04/2016 05:55 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

(OT accounting systems)

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 01:10:16PM -0500, james wrote:

GNUcash is superior to Quickbooks, as it is a 'double entry' accounting
system. Last time I check Quickbooks was not 'double entry' and that is
a big deal in accounting.

QuickBooks is double-entry, and has been for a very long time; It did
used to obscure the fact before, to make accounting 'easier' for
non-accounting people to understand.

For the Foundation, I'm presently using Ledger-CLI [1], but this is a
hurdle for any third-party financial auditing (we should be prepared at
all times for a real financial audit), because they want data in
quickbooks format.


GNUcash can import/export  any number of common/proprietary formats
including quickbooks. Quickbooks serves as the largest base of 
frustrated users that migrate (routinely) to gnucash, particularly

for custom and unique and open needs. Gnucash, found in the protage tree
has these flags:: chipcard debug doc gnome-keyring hbci mysql ofx 
postgres python quotes sqlite


So it looks like you have a choice of sql mechanisms to aid your 
customization needs. Combine that with the Android terminal feature and 
that means that lots of fiduciary oriented folks at gentoo could file 
reports and make/parse entry data, so you have a responsible team of 
folks in the 'accountability-matrix' at the gentoo foundation.




If there is a good GNUCash support for non-profit accounting (which does
differ from small-business accounting, see [2]), and matching
documentation for it, I'm VERY interested to know about it.



GNUcash is very open and I've read about all sorts of custom reports and 
modules for a plethora of varied needs (gnucash-user). My company needs 
are very modest, so I have not ventured into customizing gnucash. When I 
take my annual reports to my tax accountant (mid sized Accounting firm) 
they are always impressed with the quality of the reports and the fact I 
can at anytime print a complete ledger, or specify to/from dates, with 
detailed annotations of all events/transactions/anomalies.


In 27 year of having fiduciary responsibilities at a variety of 
organizations, none of my teams/companies have been audited by the IRS. 
Squeaky, tight-assed accounting and knowing your business, is reflected 
in the team and the documents you send to the IRS; it's just that 
simple, regardless of organizational structure. A 'tight-ass' is a 
tight-ass, reflected in your documents and 2 minutes of browsing by a 
seasoned CPA/auditor and they know more about you than you do. In 
(tax)accounting, there are only A+ and F participants, imho.



Here are a few links you can ponder, before joining the mailing list and
formulating specific questions as to what you want(need) in an 
accounting package for a non-profit.


http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Custom_Reports#Get_to_know_Scheme

http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Custom_Reports_Using_Eguile

In your second reference, I do not see any thing that gnucash is not 
able to do; mostly with a judicious naming and organization of your 
'chart of accounts'. In fact the only report that does not have a 
functional equivalent is the 'Statement of Functional Expenses'. But 
that should not be too difficult to create; but maybe not to your standards?



Standard reports required for example "Net assets" have a gnucash 
equivalent, which could be further customized to your liking.


Things like "Nonprofit expenses are reported by these functions::
Program, management and general, and fundraising", would be handled
structurally as your 'chart of accounts' where you define the structure. 
Perhaps you need an accountant to help you define your 'chart of accounts'?


Surely Gentoo has as specific CPA advising the organization?
If you are in  So. Calif, I know a cranky old vet, that worked for the 
IRS and is brilliant. He's a bit of an 'old bastard', but he has a soft 
touch.  He's not too computer literate, but he know the IRS inside and 
out. He might help you out in exchange for putting gentoo on an old 
lappy? In fact, he can show you how to read 'Title 26' of the IRS code 
for goodies not found in those little pamphlets that are publish by the 
IRS, should you need a 'deep dive', or ever experience an audit.

But that is no substitute for an extended relationship with a practicing
CPA over the long term. The aforementioned expert can get you where you 
need to be, for little in the way of compensation. If you take a mess to 
a CPA, it's going to cost theGentoo Foundation (GF) a bundle to sort 
out. If you clean it up, first, and walk in with pristine reports and 
documentation and the 'old bastard' the CPA will not be able to rape you 
(financially). Caveat emptor.



Link (3) looks like a fine organization, but, I'd make sure there is 
some real experience on that team, as the pres_elect is prolly going
to smack lots of tech endeavers, centric to Calif. around a bit once in 
office; just 

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[M. J. Everitt]

On 04/12/16 23:49, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:
>> I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
>> "proper" accounting software applicable to small and large businesses. I
>> know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
>> support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally accessible. I
>> would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
>> charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
>> contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!
> Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
> variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
> all!).
>
> The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
> social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.
>
> Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
> some automation:
> - I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
>   entries, but can't yet.
> - Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
>   the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.
>
Thanks for the clarification, Robin. It may be worth reviewing that
social contract to allow us better compliance if deemed worthwhile!

:]



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Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[Robin H. Johnson]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:07:59PM +, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
> "proper" accounting software applicable to small and large businesses. I
> know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
> support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally accessible. I
> would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
> charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
> contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!
Our CPA (Yes, we do have one) only recommends QuickBooks, but has used a
variety of other proprietary systems (none of which he recommends at
all!).

The catch is that either Quickbooks or Sage would be a violation of the
social contract's libre-licence dependence clause.

Ledger HAS filled most of our needs thus far, but lacks in reporting and
some automation:
- I'd love to automatically generate lots of depreciation
  entries, but can't yet.
- Something to anonymize private information in some entries, so that
  the actual Ledgers can be published for transparency.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robb...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

Re: [gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[M. J. Everitt]

On 04/12/16 22:55, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> (OT accounting systems)
>
> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 01:10:16PM -0500, james wrote:
>> GNUcash is superior to Quickbooks, as it is a 'double entry' accounting 
>> system. Last time I check Quickbooks was not 'double entry' and that is 
>> a big deal in accounting. 
> QuickBooks is double-entry, and has been for a very long time; It did
> used to obscure the fact before, to make accounting 'easier' for
> non-accounting people to understand.
>
> For the Foundation, I'm presently using Ledger-CLI [1], but this is a
> hurdle for any third-party financial auditing (we should be prepared at
> all times for a real financial audit), because they want data in
> quickbooks format.
>
> If there is a good GNUCash support for non-profit accounting (which does
> differ from small-business accounting, see [2]), and matching
> documentation for it, I'm VERY interested to know about it.
>
> Why Ledger? The Software Freedom Conservancy started a project aimed at
> Non-Profit accounting [3], wrapped around Ledger, which covers far more
> of the non-profit nuances than GNUCash does.
>
> They included enough documentation in how to specifically configure
> Ledger for non-profit usage, so it was easy to get going since I already
> used Ledger for my personal accounting.
>
> Ledger being plain-text based does work very well with version control,
> even for multiple parties (I enlisted help to convert old bank
> statements).
>
> [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/
> [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1
> [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/
>
I gather both Quickbooks and Sage have a more modular approach to
"proper" accounting software applicable to small and large businesses. I
know my mother used Quickbooks in the past with good success and the
support of her accountant, but Sage is known to be equally accessible. I
would imagine there is an appropriate version for not-for-profit or
charities, perhaps you can seek advice with the person(s) already
contacted for accounting/finance purposes?!



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[gentoo-dev] (OT) Accounting systems: Ledger-CLI vs GNUcash

[Robin H. Johnson]

(OT accounting systems)

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 01:10:16PM -0500, james wrote:
> GNUcash is superior to Quickbooks, as it is a 'double entry' accounting 
> system. Last time I check Quickbooks was not 'double entry' and that is 
> a big deal in accounting. 
QuickBooks is double-entry, and has been for a very long time; It did
used to obscure the fact before, to make accounting 'easier' for
non-accounting people to understand.

For the Foundation, I'm presently using Ledger-CLI [1], but this is a
hurdle for any third-party financial auditing (we should be prepared at
all times for a real financial audit), because they want data in
quickbooks format.

If there is a good GNUCash support for non-profit accounting (which does
differ from small-business accounting, see [2]), and matching
documentation for it, I'm VERY interested to know about it.

Why Ledger? The Software Freedom Conservancy started a project aimed at
Non-Profit accounting [3], wrapped around Ledger, which covers far more
of the non-profit nuances than GNUCash does.

They included enough documentation in how to specifically configure
Ledger for non-profit usage, so it was easy to get going since I already
used Ledger for my personal accounting.

Ledger being plain-text based does work very well with version control,
even for multiple parties (I enlisted help to convert old bank
statements).

[1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/
[2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1
[3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robb...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136