[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? Oh for crying out loud, Pierre. How paranoid! Luca - questioning Gentoo's HR shouldn't elicit insults about pigs and trolls. This behavior suggests you are too easy to piss off in the first place. I'm not going to bother with pointwise pseudo-rebuttals that amount to not listening. I am an experienced developer. The proof is in the pudding. If Gentoo gains more devs than it loses, and the bugzilla shrinks faster than it grows, then I will change my mind. Anyway you're clearly set in your ways! Good luck! Dave -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project btw). Knowing no one here or there, nor any history: great never heard project... Smells troll or dumb fan. This conversation reminds me of Human Resources. They always have 'procedures' and 'career tracks.' Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness. You're asking Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team. Empty rhetoric. I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper weights. People with a couple of small open-source projects. The monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights. Then the chief architect of Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output? Please. That smells like bad fish. No, any people is welcome to contribute to gentoo, as long rules are respected. IFF you want to be a dev, you MUST do the quizzes. It takes about one day (5 hours) to do them all if you want. When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast lane. Nobody proved us he is an expert. You shouldn't assume. He is worth ten bugzillas. Are they in the same tune of internets? Like a scientist once told me - it would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have janitors for that. Bad example and non consequential. (BTW: pigs do not count as scientists) Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it. Issue tracking is the _ONLY_ way to make sure at least you know what is going on. Ubuntu has hundreds of bugs sitting around for years and years. And? We aren't Ubuntu, yet knowing that you have long opened bugs is way better than being oblivious about them (and nothing is preventing others to propose fixes) Personally: I have stopped filing bugzillas at various places. Please quit as well exploiting our software. Projects organized around bugzillas are inefficient. Care to backing up this claim? Issue tracking is needed. Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs. I know zero developers who first think to themselves, ok, I need a project bugzilla...then I can begin writing code. That isn't how development works. You aren't a developer, for LScube I FIRST set up git roundup(it's an issue tracker like bugzilla) and a completely new website, then I managed to get mailing lists and irc channel. So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix them is rhetoric. The issue is ROI. Why file bugzillas that some dev authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix the code yourself? You aren't following... IFF you want to be a dev you apply for it like any other guy interested. IFF you want a bug fixed you report it properly using the tools for that: bugzilla. If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give him CVS. He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of talent. If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that. You aren't supposed to know anything since you: - are a gentoo newcomer (welcome btw) - you don't know anything about Sabayon Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really, really dumb. Informed judgments are better, isn't it. I can hardly believe what I'm reading. Me too. It makes me want to cry. Take a tissue. Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of writing to you guys. You are free to do whatever you want. I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who has an attitude problem. There needs to be a red carpet for people like this. NO, he managed to piss off MOST of the developers, he hadn't prove himself to us beside being a legend on #gentoo-releng, he exploited our work giving headaches back like people lying about their setup on bugzilla. I would not care if he had a 666 on his head. I'm not discussing his fashion tastes. You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working, think up something new. No, we don't need people rushing solutions that may or may not be: - half backed - clashing with the Gentoo way (the 3-4 things that make working with Gentoo different than working on say... Debian rebuilding apt packages) If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc. But I say +1 let him have at it. Doesn't work like that, our cvs must be stable, you have a relatively narrow window between syncs to the mirrors and if you make a mistake and don't fix it within that time, users will suffer. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani napsal(a): I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next week for the hunting. No, please don't. One bug per category is acceptable, no way I'm going to CC 150 maintainers on such monster bug and watch the resulting huge bugspam landing in bug-wranglers and other people's mailboxes, it's extremely annoying, extremely messy and generally not a good way to things fixed. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper weights. People with a couple of small open-source projects. The monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights. Then the chief architect of Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output? Please. That smells like bad fish. Sorry, but look up humour in a dictionary of your choice. The guy with the paperweight has been a valuable contributor to the Alpha port including preparing the releases for that architecture. If you had read his announcement completely you would have seen what kind of service he provided for the project...for years! When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast lane. He is worth ten bugzillas. Like a scientist once told me - it would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have janitors for that. No, same rights for everybody. Even Daniel Robbins (founder of Gentoo) took the quizees the normal way. when he returned. Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs. I know zero developers who first think to themselves, ok, I need a project bugzilla...then I can begin writing code. That isn't how development works. As long as somebody cares about the bugs, it works quite well...if nobody responds to them, any system is useless. So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix them is rhetoric. The issue is ROI. Why file bugzillas that some dev authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix the code yourself? Sometimes I do commits in other project's garden...because I need a bug closed. I warn them one week at least before doing the actual change so somebody can stop me. If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc. But I say +1 let him have at it. Fine, you can help him take the quiz. V-L -- Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode URL:http://www.faulhammer.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
I don't really want CVS access neither I care. What I want is just fixing bugs. I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next week for the hunting. Then, we'll see how long it will stay open, just one evidence here: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125728 :) I've also found a lot of files collisions, especially on scientific applications. I'll try to file a huge bug for that too, but it'll take a lot of time. -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:22 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: [gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:56] lxnay agaffney: I don't think it's worth it wasting my time insulting you, I've something better to do [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:07] agaffney lxnay: oh, burn! [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:11] * agaffney cries in the corner [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:40] lxnay what stupid are you Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the people that you're trying to help out. You wonder why people respond negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Games Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the people that you're trying to help out. You wonder why people respond negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Games Developer Oh so the stupid is me. True true... -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani a écrit : I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500 packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end up to take 16 hours. Then open a reduced number of bugs, say one per portage category that has over 20 bugs and group the rest in a one or 2 other bug reports. Then bug wranglers can start sifting through the list to see if you've been smoking crack or not and add relevant herds/arch teams/maintainers as CC to those bugs to get them fixed. I've done this before on a much smaller scale (20+ packages) and others have too for other issues (eg. Flameeyes with WANT_AUTO* which started out as a huge list of 100+ packages) and this process has always worked fine so far. To build my previous list, I took about 30 minutes, it's not that big, but even that small. So, what I just wanted to try to build up is a fast lane. Bugzilla is still the fastest lane around. We're not the LKML, bugzilla _is_ our primary tool. When I say I don't have time, it means that I can't waste my time fighting with some of you just because you have the knife in your hand and like to make fun of me. Honestly, this is borderline paranoia. Most of us get bug reports from people we've never heard of, living in countries we've never been to, with ages and social backgrounds that we don't even know (or care) about. And I have yet to see a Gentoo dev closing a bug as WONTFIXBECAUSEIDONTLIKEYOU. :) BTW, It's funny to see the difference of attitudes from here and IRC, let me underline that :) So this is a neutral ground. I'll add that Bugzilla is also very neutral, even more so than mailing lists AFAICS. Cheers, Rémi -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
René 'Necoro' Neumann schrieb: I'm not a gentoo-dev - and I did not read the whole thread, because it was too political for me (do I really have to read all these IRC quotes?). +1, this stuff belongs to the -project mailinglist But I just had an idea for this topic (don't know if anyone had this already - or if it is not applicable here), that I want to share: Why not try to find someone, who does all the bug filing? - So lxnay can find and fix the bugs - and someone else files the bugs and does the discussing with the gentoo-devs. Then both sides have what they want. Of course, it still takes time to get things into the tree, but this shouldn't be a problem :) (I think). maybe finding someone who works with a bunch of people would do the trick ;) Just an idea - please don't eat me, if it's a silly one ^^ /me eats portatoes today ;) Greetz -Jokey signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 05:43:35PM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: What I just need is respect. I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500 packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end up to take 16 hours. As the others said, you can either group them together, or as I noted previously, you can use Bugzilla templates. I think the templates are going to be a better option for you, based on not being able to see what you meant about lzo, x264-svn and attr. Hopefully this URL won't break, as I'm deliberately not shortening it to show you a template: http://bugs.gentoo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gentoo%20Linuxversion=2007.0component=Applicationsrep_platform=Allop_sys=Linuxpriority=P2bug_severity=normalbug_status=NEWalias=bug_file_loc=short_desc=Please%20stabilize%20comment=Target%20keywords%3A%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3Dtest%20emerge%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3D-test%20emerge%0D%0A%28compile-test%20only%29commentprivacy=0keywords=STABLEREQdependson=blocked=maketemplate=Remember%20values%20as%20bookmarkable%20templateform_name=enter_bugassigned_to=robbat2%40gentoo.org From the advanced bug filing page, write in a lot of the content that you want, and then use the button on the button 'Remember values as bookmarkable template'. If it takes you 5 minutes to file a bunch of near identical bugs, something is wrong. The above is my core URL for filing stable bugs. With a little bit of magic, you can pre-populate every field (eg look at the KEYWORDS+metadata and work out 'CC' automatically), and then just fill in a little bit of unique description if needed for each one. The only time it takes me more than 30 seconds to file a bug requesting stabilization on one of my packages is if I want to write a detailed testplan. -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Infra Guy E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgpwKjDy3UKmI.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project btw). Knowing no one here or there, nor any history: This conversation reminds me of Human Resources. They always have 'procedures' and 'career tracks.' Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness. You're asking Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team. I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper weights. People with a couple of small open-source projects. The monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights. Then the chief architect of Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output? Please. That smells like bad fish. When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast lane. He is worth ten bugzillas. Like a scientist once told me - it would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have janitors for that. Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it. Ubuntu has hundreds of bugs sitting around for years and years. Personally: I have stopped filing bugzillas at various places. Projects organized around bugzillas are inefficient. Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs. I know zero developers who first think to themselves, ok, I need a project bugzilla...then I can begin writing code. That isn't how development works. So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix them is rhetoric. The issue is ROI. Why file bugzillas that some dev authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix the code yourself? If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give him CVS. He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of talent. If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that. But wasting his life trying to earn brownie points and respect? Sad. Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really, really dumb. I can hardly believe what I'm reading. It makes me want to cry. Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of writing to you guys. I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who has an attitude problem. There needs to be a red carpet for people like this. I would not care if he had a 666 on his head. You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working, think up something new. If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc. But I say +1 let him have at it. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then the chief architect of Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output? Can I declare myself Chief Architect of unieject? Does that give me right to take and fix others' software without passing through the usual ways? Counting titles seems more an HR thing to me than looking at behaviour. [and I didn't even want to write to this topic] -- Diego Flameeyes Pettenò http://blog.flameeyes.eu/ pgpLV5Q12WHWy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project btw). [...] When someone as expert as this [...] He is worth ten bugzillas. [...] He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of talent. [...] There needs to be a red carpet for people like this. [...] You seem to know him pretty well it seems... Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :) - -- Pierre-Yves Rofes Gentoo Linux Security Team -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH2bjAuhJ+ozIKI5gRAkSCAJ4wojl14fhpJSkHUVpFhJ2tDxIZGwCeNVJT lfKC4xa+C2vbO8mYEZar0RE= =LnRw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
This conversation reminds me of Human Resources. They always have 'procedures' and 'career tracks.' Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness. You're asking Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team. You must be American. I am President of Sabayon. Give me rights to clobber Gentoo NOW! Except, s/Sabayon/United States s/Gentoo/Iraq /political-humor -- Anant -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
On 3/14/08, Pierre-Yves Rofes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You seem to know him pretty well it seems... Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :) - -- Pierre-Yves Rofes Gentoo Linux Security Team I hope you were joking :))) -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti: Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project btw). Knowing no one here or there, nor any history: Never heard of and you say it's a great project? This conversation reminds me of Human Resources. They always have 'procedures' and 'career tracks.' Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness. You're asking Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team. You don't know Sabayon and can evaluate the skills of lxnay? I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper weights. People with a couple of small open-source projects. The monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights. Then the chief architect of Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output? Please. That smells like bad fish. The new dev announcements are traditionally written in a funky way. Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs. I know zero developers who first think to themselves, ok, I need a project bugzilla...then I can begin writing code. That isn't how development works. But I don't know any major project not having a bug reporting tool. So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix them is rhetoric. The issue is ROI. Why file bugzillas that some dev authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix the code yourself? The perception of things rottening in bugzilla hasn't been proven. Here are the response times to bug filed by lxnay in 2007 and 2008: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160333 * first response in two days (and marked as WONTFIX but later reopened) * interactions could be better on either sides https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188024 * Fixed in two days https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=192786 * Fixed in 7 hours after patch submission https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193337 * Your expert is missing basic ebuild knowledge -- WORKSFORME * 9 minutes https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199886 * little under two months (yes this is too long) https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211324 * Been open a couple of weeks waiting for other changes (borderline) We do have lots of stuff that rot in bugzilla in many cases they are requests for new ebuilds and not problems with existing ebuilds. If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give him CVS. He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of talent. If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that. There is nothing stopping him from taking the quizzes as any other new dev. If he is as good say you he is, answering the quizzes won't take long. You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working, think up something new. Bugzilla isn't the only way new people come in. If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc. But I say +1 let him have at it. Very useful after it has already been synced to tons of machines and users are hitting our IRC channels with torches. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
