[gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Also part of the maturity point. Perhaps we all just need to grow up? ;) Very likely, but how? I think my own opinion was best expressed by John Galsworthy (or Soames Forsyte of the Forsyte Saga): One of these days they’d try and bring in Prohibition, he shouldn’t wonder; but that cock wouldn’t fight in England — too extravagant! Treating people like children wasn’t the way to make them grow up; as if they weren’t childish enough as it was. I think that the mere existence of the CoC would slow down, to say the least, growing up. Prohibition laws are in the spirit of time, though, so when facing the dilemma of being decent vs. following the rules, the majority prefers the latter nowadays. Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 06:15:27PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: No one's been complaining about the user forums, apart from ciaran afaict Oh, I assure you I'm not the only person to have serious issues with the forums. A number of Gentoo developers and former Gentoo developers have expressed similar views to mine on the subject... Once again, stop turning every thread into a tirade against the forums. Thanks, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpSBOHPHtTkq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
This is a great link for the leaders, developers and just about anyone else involved in our community. While this is solely my opinion I do humbly ask anyone with a spare few minutes to step back and take a look. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645q=poisonous+people C. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 C. Bergström wrote: This is a great link for the leaders, developers and just about anyone else involved in our community. While this is solely my opinion I do humbly ask anyone with a spare few minutes to step back and take a look. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645q=poisonous+people C. This is about the fifth time someone has linked to that presentation. It looks useful for small projects (like svn) with a strong leader who can maintain the focus and drive of the community. However, gentoo is an entirely different beast. - -- Jeff Gardner Gentoo Developer Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23 hkp://subkeys.pgp.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+RKciR2KxEpdjyMRAlEkAJ0R5JfnBRCTrIHpNYK+jUVLZbH7ZwCgpzDl oWK6pR1BOu8hg9r6GHHMKrI= =ifal -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 00:35 +, George Prowse wrote: Ferris McCormick wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. You misunderstand. The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one way or the other. It's good to see it has only taken 3 or is it 4 or 5 devs to leave before anyone thinks about doing something. George -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:30:11 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees (and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future. And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' I think you're missing a clear view of the facts here... Incidentally, I'm unsure as to how your analogy applies here. You keep mentioning 'best employee'. I'm not sure how that fits in. If i remember, I said one of and also (if i remember correctly) flameeyes happened to be head of two herds, a member of the council, had more cia commits than any developer and was one of THE most respected developers in the whole of Gentoo. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' Seeing as you guys are discussing me, I suppose I should correct the flawed thinking so you can actually get something right. Your logic is completely flawed because it assumes that my reaction would have been any different if I didn't have some sort of shiny gentoo developer tag associated with me. I would still have told Diego exactly how I felt about unreasonably abusing an arch team member who was simply trying to do his job had I been a developer or not. So seriously, stop assuming my impending retirement had anything to do with this. I would still react loudly to folks pulling a similar stunt now that I *am* retired. -Steve
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ferris McCormick wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 00:35 +, George Prowse wrote: Ferris McCormick wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. You misunderstand. The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one way or the other. Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. Having spent 5 years as a manager of a Health club and having a qualification in Sport and Recreational Management means I know what I am talking about. It is far easier and better to reprimand one of the people when the other is no longer there, it stops either of them thinking that they won. Both lose - one leaves by his own accord and the other is reprimanded so they are both equal and that stops either of them thinking that they have been treated differently which is key to a situation like this. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Stephen Becker wrote: And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' Seeing as you guys are discussing me, I suppose I should correct the flawed thinking so you can actually get something right. Your logic is completely flawed because it assumes that my reaction would have been any different if I didn't have some sort of shiny gentoo developer tag associated with me. I would still have told Diego exactly how I felt about unreasonably abusing an arch team member who was simply trying to do his job had I been a developer or not. So seriously, stop assuming my impending retirement had anything to do with this. I would still react loudly to folks pulling a similar stunt now that I *am* retired. -Steve That is immaterial, no-one is discussing what you or Diego did before the situation came up -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:44:37 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. Except that making it known is that much harder because you've just tolerated it, and let them get what they wanted by doing so. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 14:44 +, George Prowse wrote: Ferris McCormick wrote: As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. You misunderstand. The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one way or the other. Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. Whether or not Joe is leaving or not is irrelevant to how to treat my conduct. Apparently in this case I did not know Joe was leaving, and it is never (well, hardly ever) acceptable to make such demands. Joe goes or I go says something about me, not about Joe. And what it says (if nothing else) is that I am a problem employee who considers himself to be indispensable. We (or anyone else) just can't ask Joe to leave soon because someone doesn't like him. In my example, I am the problem, not Joe --- I set it up that way. Regards, -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ferris McCormick wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 14:44 +, George Prowse wrote: Ferris McCormick wrote: As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. You misunderstand. The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one way or the other. Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. Whether or not Joe is leaving or not is irrelevant to how to treat my conduct. Apparently in this case I did not know Joe was leaving, and it is never (well, hardly ever) acceptable to make such demands. Joe goes or I go says something about me, not about Joe. And what it says (if nothing else) is that I am a problem employee who considers himself to be indispensable. We (or anyone else) just can't ask Joe to leave soon because someone doesn't like him. In my example, I am the problem, not Joe --- I set it up that way. Regards, I never said anyone was right for demanding anything, in fact i have said numerous times that reprimands should be given out. This does not mean that it cant be sorted out behind the scenes in ways more befitting a professional organisation. Saying no, take it or leave it is still cutting off your nose to spite your face. A simple i'm afraid i cant do that but both you and I know he is leaving soon so leave it with me and i'll see what i can do... would give time think, assess the situation and tell the other person that you know he was leaving and that it would be better for him to do so sooner than later. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:44:37 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. You miss the point. This was not the first time a resignation stunt had been pulled by that developer, and previously another developer had been strongly warned about resigning for publicity. Then deal with the situation in ways i have already said in about 5 other emails to the list -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:38 +, George Prowse wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:44:37 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You miss the point. This was not the first time a resignation stunt had been pulled by that developer, and previously another developer had been strongly warned about resigning for publicity. Then deal with the situation in ways i have already said in about 5 other emails to the list George, then let's just say your point has been made. Repeating it only adds to the noise. As for the rest of it, the prior resignation was not actually a stunt. This is again the sort of thing I referred to on this list and in my blog last week about vague half-truths in order to level accusations. Diego was intent on leaving the last time he tried to resign. It was I who brought him back. That's how *I* deal with departing devs: I try and talk them into cooling down and reconsidering a rash decision. As for the whole idea of blackmail, it's frankly a little ridiculous that everyone's latched on this vague notion of blackmail without actually caring to look under the hood of what that was symptomatic of: viz. the repeated (public and archived) attacks. That's not to say Diego is faultless. Far from it: he should have handled himself in a lot better way than he did. That, however, does not preclude or excuse Stephen's role in the mess, nor does it negate his bad behaviour. Now, can everyone please knock it off with the bad behaviour of their own on this list. Thanks, Seemant signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Grant Goodyear wrote: Underlying the draft code of conduct is an assumption that aggressive and less-than-nice behavior on gentoo-dev is seriously harming Gentoo. Well you've recently lost two very capable devs as a result of it, and I understand others have left for similar reasons, so i'd say it is seriously harming Gentoo. Quite apart from the reputational damage. On the other hand, LKML is famous for its flamewars, and nobody claims that Linux is in serious trouble. Does anybody have a good feeling for where the difference lies? Are we sure that we're solving the right problem? (That's not a rhetorical question; I really don't know the answer.) Um not qualified to answer the first part, although i think jstubbs gave good points. I'm not sure you are solving the right prob if this is just about the dev m-l. But iirc the flameyes thing started on irc and finished on bugzilla, with a goodbye post to the m-l. Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. I would advise against trying to impose this on the user forums, however, as there simply isn't any reason to do so. No one's been complaining about the user forums, apart from ciaran afaict, and a kneejerk response could well backfire (ie harm gentoo more). IOW I agree it should be a temporary thing until the longer term implications are bedded in. /Some/ action *is* called for imo. Believe it or not, most users don't care about the devs either; we just like the software. Maybe you could involve the user reps before imposing rules on our forum because yours aren't working right? Most apposite thing I ever heard (doubly so since it comes from Torvalds): If you develop Free software you get a thick skin. Or you don't develop Free software. I hear Apple're hiring? ;P -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:04:25 + Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Grant Goodyear wrote: Underlying the draft code of conduct is an assumption that aggressive and less-than-nice behavior on gentoo-dev is seriously harming Gentoo. Well you've recently lost two very capable devs as a result of it, and I understand others have left for similar reasons, so i'd say it is seriously harming Gentoo. Quite apart from the reputational damage. You need to distinguish between why a developer left and why he said he left. Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... No one's been complaining about the user forums, apart from ciaran afaict Oh, I assure you I'm not the only person to have serious issues with the forums. A number of Gentoo developers and former Gentoo developers have expressed similar views to mine on the subject... -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... Yawn, Diego left because of various issues, including his inability to let people said stupid things and let them made a fool of themselves alone. Everybody has defects. No one's been complaining about the user forums, apart from ciaran afaict I don't care about forums since I consider them dispersive, people considering them an important feature maybe have different ideas about how to handle them (iterate for each communication medium around). That said I like places where people is nice enough to not capture hate or show hate. lu - that probably would always try to help people getting a clue before suggesting them to use ubuntu. -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list Regards, - -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6-ecc01.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF+HzzQa6M3+I///cRAgbrAKDegV4ZTzktAo3xspKdFZtXv4NWgwCgnWHc 0JtrXM0K3jT7G10qqWTrGYI= =ciKo -END PGP SIGNATURE- éí¢^¾§¶(® X§X¬
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ferris McCormick wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's good to see it has only taken 3 or is it 4 or 5 devs to leave before anyone thinks about doing something. George -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:35:14 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Stephen Bennett wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:35:14 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees (and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future. It is called man-management and people skills, something that is severely lacking in Gentoo at the moment -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:30:11 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees (and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future. And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? I think you're missing a clear view of the facts here... Incidentally, I'm unsure as to how your analogy applies here. You keep mentioning 'best employee'. I'm not sure how that fits in. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
