Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Volkov Peter wrote: > Hello. > > IMO the very important element of gentoo user relations that is absent > at w.g.o is search field! Gentoo does not have good searching point. > > Each time I encounter bug/problem before asking for help if I'm a good > boy I have to search for solution in different places: forums, mailing > lists, bugzilla. If I heard that gentoo has some feature and I'd like to > find some relevant information, I have to search forums, mailing lists, > wiki, google. That is really uncomfortable. I have to open many > different search pages in my browser and cut and paste my search pattern > there, wait many times for results... And now pretend first day user..! > > This omission really disturbs. So just some notes, on what IMO shall be > done. Search should spread among all gentoo projects, subprojects, ml, > blogs and etc. Search should be customized (fex, I'd like to search only > -user mailing list, Assistance forums, and bugs.g.o). It's good idea to > save searches (like save searches in bugzilla). BTW. There were already > suggestions with working implementations: > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/33296 > > Peter. Thanks for your interest. A comprehensive search is on our ToDo list. There is no ETA for when this will go live. --curtis signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Hello. IMO the very important element of gentoo user relations that is absent at w.g.o is search field! Gentoo does not have good searching point. Each time I encounter bug/problem before asking for help if I'm a good boy I have to search for solution in different places: forums, mailing lists, bugzilla. If I heard that gentoo has some feature and I'd like to find some relevant information, I have to search forums, mailing lists, wiki, google. That is really uncomfortable. I have to open many different search pages in my browser and cut and paste my search pattern there, wait many times for results... And now pretend first day user..! This omission really disturbs. So just some notes, on what IMO shall be done. Search should spread among all gentoo projects, subprojects, ml, blogs and etc. Search should be customized (fex, I'd like to search only -user mailing list, Assistance forums, and bugs.g.o). It's good idea to save searches (like save searches in bugzilla). BTW. There were already suggestions with working implementations: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/33296 Peter. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Sat, 2006-04-08 at 14:07 -0500, lnxg33k wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > > * If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users -> > > developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development > > tools or development documentation. > > I'm a little late jumping into this and I haven't read all the threads yet, > however I agree with Ciaran here. From a user who wishes to progress, this > particular point is something I can relate to. Consolidating docs into a > single > place, getting rid of stale stuff, and updating the old would do a lot to > bring > users up-to-speed. By providing docs, users who wish to take the initiative > can > do so. Once they learn the lingo and system, they can better offer their > services and it would decrease frustration on the devs part concerning > ignorant > (not demeaning, but fact) users. > > Improving development tools helps, but also making them available where > applicable. I'm thinking more along the lines of scripts located on dev > spaces > as applications like catalyst are already available. Stuff that normally is > considered "developer only" should be opened up so that users can get a > better > sense of what is actually going on; this would lessen the degree of naiveness. Yes, making information (such as documentation etc) more accessible, easier to find and centralized is certainly something that would be beneficial. As is making sure that it is all up to date. Thank you for pointing it out. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list. Something similar to what, i guess, the homonym IRC chan is, but for people who don't like IRC. I like this idea as well and agree with the reasoning snip'ed out. As for other mail about -user, that list seems more general where as this (hopefully) would fill in as the forums "Portage and Programming" category -- meaning stuff that ordinary users aren't typically going to know. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: * If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users -> developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development tools or development documentation. I'm a little late jumping into this and I haven't read all the threads yet, however I agree with Ciaran here. From a user who wishes to progress, this particular point is something I can relate to. Consolidating docs into a single place, getting rid of stale stuff, and updating the old would do a lot to bring users up-to-speed. By providing docs, users who wish to take the initiative can do so. Once they learn the lingo and system, they can better offer their services and it would decrease frustration on the devs part concerning ignorant (not demeaning, but fact) users. Improving development tools helps, but also making them available where applicable. I'm thinking more along the lines of scripts located on dev spaces as applications like catalyst are already available. Stuff that normally is considered "developer only" should be opened up so that users can get a better sense of what is actually going on; this would lessen the degree of naiveness. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Friday 07 April 2006 17:47, Christel Dahlskjaer wrote: > What Alec said, however, this would require that we have interested > developers who would subscribe and be active when they can, to avoid it > becoming another -user. > > But yes, I like that idea too! Thank you. Actually -user used to have that function, until it became very very high trafic, and I and others dedided unsubscribing was better for my productivity. It seems indeed a good idea. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpsZDzZYuGL3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:48:12 -0400, Michael Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Friday 07 April 2006 11:15, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:21:54 +0100, > > > > I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list. > > isn't that what the gentoo mailing list is for (not -dev, but the > real [EMAIL PROTECTED]). No idea. I can't find any archive on gmane or marc, and it's not listed on www.g.o/main/en/lists.xml, so i really don't have a clue about this ML. And gentoo+subscribe@ gives SMTP error, so i'm not even sure it still exists at all (and is public). -- TGL. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, Apr 7, 2006 at 18:07:14 +0200, Christel Dahlskjaer wrote: > What Alec said, however, this would require that we have interested > developers who would subscribe and be active when they can, to avoid it > becoming another -user. Well, even if it's a small percentage of the devs, #gentoo-dev-help is usually well populated and it is very rare that people don't get answers to their question. I also think that a lot of people who will subsribe will be power users who already wrote ebuilds and have some experience, so should be able to address at least some of the questions. I add my vote for the creation of this mailing-list. /Alexandre -- Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature. pgpiP9nbKvjRL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Friday 07 April 2006 11:15, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:21:54 +0100, > > I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list. Not to be a wet blanket (I'm all for making current users happier and encouraging new folks to take the bold step) but isn't that what the gentoo mailing list is for (not -dev, but the real [EMAIL PROTECTED]). Granted, not all devs are on there (I know I'm not), but when I was on there I remember it being the kind of place you could ask those questions. just my two pieces of copper, ~mcummings pgpqTrbahjMaH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 11:42 -0400, Alec Warner wrote:
> Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:21:54 +0100,
> > Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>* If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users ->
> >>developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development
> >>tools or development documentation.
> >
> >
> > I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list.
> > Something similar to what, i guess, the homonym IRC chan is, but for
> > people who don't like IRC. Maybe i'm wrong and that's not the
> > intention, but after 4 years of reading on gentoo-dev@ (yeah, today is
> > anniversary of my subscription - yik, that's more than 36K emails in
> > this maildir) , my feeling is that it's not the right place for users
> > to ask technical questions about development/contributing (ebuilds
> > writing, etc.). It's not that i fear this ML, but i see it mainly as a
> > place for dev-to-dev communication on general/important topics (gleps
> > discussion, common sense reminders, random flamewars, etc.), and thus i
> > see the occasional "How {c,sh}ould i do something?" messages about
> > small details as somehow off-topic, and i tend to avoid posting some.
> >
> > Seeing how more numerous this kind of messages are on "Portage &
> > Programming" forums, or on gentoo-user*@ lists, i guess i'm not the
> > only user with such feeling. But forums or users MLs are not really
> > satisfactory for non-obvious questions, because the devs/users rate
> > there is too low.
> >
> > So, what i usualy do when i'm not sure about something, in an ebuild i
> > wrote for instance, is to post it as-is on bugs.g.o, with the
> > questions left open in my report. But they will stay unanswered if
> > the bug falls in the "maintainer-wanted@" oubliettes, or if the
> > assignee is too short in time to explain me why he choosed one solution
> > rather than an other. And even if i get my answer, it will be from a
> > single dev, whereas others might have had a different views on the
> > topic.
> >
> > Finally, i think such a mainling list could give good hints on what to
> > improve in the documentation. Some legitimate questions may point to
> > real lacks in the documentation, and some answers could be starting
> > point for new chunks to add to the official or unofficial handbooks.
> >
> > --
> > TGL.
>
> +1, plus the ML is archived unlike IRC, and users can search archives
> and we could more easily compile a FAQ about ebuild writing and such.
What Alec said, however, this would require that we have interested
developers who would subscribe and be active when they can, to avoid it
becoming another -user.
But yes, I like that idea too! Thank you.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:21:54 +0100,
> Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>* If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users ->
>>developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development
>>tools or development documentation.
>
>
> I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list.
> Something similar to what, i guess, the homonym IRC chan is, but for
> people who don't like IRC. Maybe i'm wrong and that's not the
> intention, but after 4 years of reading on gentoo-dev@ (yeah, today is
> anniversary of my subscription - yik, that's more than 36K emails in
> this maildir) , my feeling is that it's not the right place for users
> to ask technical questions about development/contributing (ebuilds
> writing, etc.). It's not that i fear this ML, but i see it mainly as a
> place for dev-to-dev communication on general/important topics (gleps
> discussion, common sense reminders, random flamewars, etc.), and thus i
> see the occasional "How {c,sh}ould i do something?" messages about
> small details as somehow off-topic, and i tend to avoid posting some.
>
> Seeing how more numerous this kind of messages are on "Portage &
> Programming" forums, or on gentoo-user*@ lists, i guess i'm not the
> only user with such feeling. But forums or users MLs are not really
> satisfactory for non-obvious questions, because the devs/users rate
> there is too low.
>
> So, what i usualy do when i'm not sure about something, in an ebuild i
> wrote for instance, is to post it as-is on bugs.g.o, with the
> questions left open in my report. But they will stay unanswered if
> the bug falls in the "maintainer-wanted@" oubliettes, or if the
> assignee is too short in time to explain me why he choosed one solution
> rather than an other. And even if i get my answer, it will be from a
> single dev, whereas others might have had a different views on the
> topic.
>
> Finally, i think such a mainling list could give good hints on what to
> improve in the documentation. Some legitimate questions may point to
> real lacks in the documentation, and some answers could be starting
> point for new chunks to add to the official or unofficial handbooks.
>
> --
> TGL.
+1, plus the ML is archived unlike IRC, and users can search archives
and we could more easily compile a FAQ about ebuild writing and such.
-Alec Warner
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:21:54 +0100,
Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users ->
> developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development
> tools or development documentation.
I would also suggest creation of a gentoo-dev-help@ mailing-list.
Something similar to what, i guess, the homonym IRC chan is, but for
people who don't like IRC. Maybe i'm wrong and that's not the
intention, but after 4 years of reading on gentoo-dev@ (yeah, today is
anniversary of my subscription - yik, that's more than 36K emails in
this maildir) , my feeling is that it's not the right place for users
to ask technical questions about development/contributing (ebuilds
writing, etc.). It's not that i fear this ML, but i see it mainly as a
place for dev-to-dev communication on general/important topics (gleps
discussion, common sense reminders, random flamewars, etc.), and thus i
see the occasional "How {c,sh}ould i do something?" messages about
small details as somehow off-topic, and i tend to avoid posting some.
Seeing how more numerous this kind of messages are on "Portage &
Programming" forums, or on gentoo-user*@ lists, i guess i'm not the
only user with such feeling. But forums or users MLs are not really
satisfactory for non-obvious questions, because the devs/users rate
there is too low.
So, what i usualy do when i'm not sure about something, in an ebuild i
wrote for instance, is to post it as-is on bugs.g.o, with the
questions left open in my report. But they will stay unanswered if
the bug falls in the "maintainer-wanted@" oubliettes, or if the
assignee is too short in time to explain me why he choosed one solution
rather than an other. And even if i get my answer, it will be from a
single dev, whereas others might have had a different views on the
topic.
Finally, i think such a mainling list could give good hints on what to
improve in the documentation. Some legitimate questions may point to
real lacks in the documentation, and some answers could be starting
point for new chunks to add to the official or unofficial handbooks.
--
TGL.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 07:32 -0400, Thomas Cort wrote: > Perhaps we should have a page explaining all of the ways someone can > help / contribute to Gentoo. There is no central place (that I know of) > for finding out what you can do as a user to make your favorite > distribution become even better. The Free Software Foundation has a nice > page here: http://www.gnu.org/help/help.html I was thinking we could > have something similar to that for Gentoo. The list would include stuff > like becoming an AT/HT, becoming a dev, writing documentation, > translating docs, linking to Gentoo.org from your blog/website, telling > your friends, starting a Gentoo user group, fixing bugs, writing good > bug reports, answering questions on the forums/irc/ml, giving away > Gentoo CDs, buying t-shirts from the Gentoo store, etc, etc. That is certainly an idea, we do have a small 'Getting involved' section on the userrel page, but the section certainly could be improved on and maybe even linked to or copied to somewhere where it is easier to find. We'll have a good look at the link you provided and see if they have any ideas we may be able to steal! Thank you. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 10:21 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:30:10 +0100 Christel Dahlskjaer > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > | What do you believe could make Gentoo more attractive > | to new users and to current users? > > Something that's often missed in these discussions... The only serious > interaction between Gentoo and nearly all of our end users is through > the tree, package manager and related tools and our documentation. Most > of our users don't regularly read mailing lists, use IRC or the forums, > so the only thing they really see is what happens when they emerge > --sync and install things. Nod, I may have dreamt this, but I believe I saw mention of some sort of implemented news reader-esque idea. Is that something you know if people have given any thought? Discussed? Is it an idea that could be worth looking at again? > I'm not entirely sure how bugzilla fits into all this. I suspect that > it's nowhere near as widely used by end users as it could be. As for using bugzilla for information, I am not entire sure. As for the sort of stuff that has been brought up bugzilla wise are things like 'Better how-to's" to ensure it's easier for users to write good bug reports and less time demanding for devs to respond to them (This is already being worked on by cwp et al) Other ideas are things such as introducing bugzillas voting system. > Three things I can think of that can be drawn from this: > > * GLEP 42 Ding! The 'news reader esque' idea I thought I had dreamt may very well have been just that, I read through all the GLEPs the other day, and I suspect that may be where I got it from. Thank you. > * All the pretty pink unicorns in the world aren't going to make a > scrap of difference if the tree keeps breaking. Ack, however much I love pretty pink unicorns (and pretty pink portage, and pretty pink baselayout and most other things that are well, pretty and pink) I agree with you there. Personally, I like the idea of such things as higher standards, more direction, code reviews, developing coding standards, document functions, getting the proper comments in place in code (I'm quite astonished by the dearth of comments and how it looks like it hasn't been reviewd for quite some time in places). However, this may be better off in a different discussion and not on a userrel thread. > * If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users -> > developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development > tools or development documentation. Perhaps that is somewhere else we need to look. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Perhaps we should have a page explaining all of the ways someone can help / contribute to Gentoo. There is no central place (that I know of) for finding out what you can do as a user to make your favorite distribution become even better. The Free Software Foundation has a nice page here: http://www.gnu.org/help/help.html I was thinking we could have something similar to that for Gentoo. The list would include stuff like becoming an AT/HT, becoming a dev, writing documentation, translating docs, linking to Gentoo.org from your blog/website, telling your friends, starting a Gentoo user group, fixing bugs, writing good bug reports, answering questions on the forums/irc/ml, giving away Gentoo CDs, buying t-shirts from the Gentoo store, etc, etc. -tcort -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:30:10 +0100 Christel Dahlskjaer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | What do you believe could make Gentoo more attractive | to new users and to current users? Something that's often missed in these discussions... The only serious interaction between Gentoo and nearly all of our end users is through the tree, package manager and related tools and our documentation. Most of our users don't regularly read mailing lists, use IRC or the forums, so the only thing they really see is what happens when they emerge --sync and install things. I'm not entirely sure how bugzilla fits into all this. I suspect that it's nowhere near as widely used by end users as it could be. Three things I can think of that can be drawn from this: * GLEP 42 * All the pretty pink unicorns in the world aren't going to make a scrap of difference if the tree keeps breaking. * If we're looking to increase the flow of end users -> super users -> developers, perhaps we should focus more upon improving development tools or development documentation. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Wearer of the shiny hat) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Improving Gentoo User Relations
Hi everyone, First, allow me to thank every last one of you for the great welcome you gave me when I joined. It is an immeasurably great and exciting challenge to take over as lead of the user relations[1] project and I am very thankful to Seemant and devrel for the confidence they have shown in me passing the baton on to me from Daniel (dsd) and I am delighted at the prospect of working together with all of you; developers and users alike to make this project the best it can be. Having been warned that reviving the project would be a difficult task and one where I'd struggle to create any interest; I am very much pleased to find that this has not been the case. So now we are faced with the challenge of resurrecting the project and making it the best it can be. We have a blank page to colour in in such a way it becomes attractive to the majority of our ~200,000 users, and of course to the developer community. And this is where we would like your input, whether you are a developer or a user; What do you believe we should and could do to improve relations between users and developers? What do you believe could make Gentoo more attractive to new users and to current users? What would make Gentoo kick even more arse than it already has proven it can? What do we need to 'fix'? What do we need to consider introducing? Where do you feel we go horribly wrong? (Now for that question, I'd strongly suggest we all avoid attacking eachother, I simply want to know and learn from mistakes made in the past to avoid repeating them!) And what have we done right? If you feel you have useful input we would love to hear it, don't be afraid that your suggestions or ideas may be dumb or insignificant. We would like to listen at what you have to say however small or big it may be. I would like for everyone to feel comfortable stating their opinions and views and suggestions without fear of being flamed. However, should you feel uncomfortable replying on-list you are most welcome to drop an e-mail offlist be it to myself or to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It has also been asked that I explain the two roles created especially with user relations in mind, I will do so here but remember that these definitions may be tweaked slightly before they reach perfection. One of the roles created is that of a representative from a other user focused project within gentoo (such as pr, bugzilla, bugdays, arch testers, forums, #gentoo ops, documentation etc) and is currently explained as follows: > Given the nature of the user-relations project and the number of > established projects which interact directly with users, we felt it > would be beneficial to have a defined point of contact with these > projects, who can provide input on what they would find useful, and > what could cause them problems. We envision these representatives as > being able to provide feedback regarding anything user-relations is > planning to do, and also to provide suggestions for new projects or > initiatives that could benefit their projects, as well as keeping us > informed about changes within their projects that could affect users, > or that would require any action from user-relations to take advantage > of them. The intention is that these project representatives would be > a part of the user-relations team, and that each representative would > be responsible for making sure that his/her project's best interests > are properly taken into consideration during user-relations' every day > activities. This way, we hope to keep in touch with other user-focused > projects, and make sure that all user-facing projects know what is > going on and can provide the greatest benefit to users and developers > alike. Provision has also been made by developer relations for the creation of the role of 'user representative', which is explained below: > Since the user relations project is intended to act as a bridge > between developers and users, it is important that we do not let our > assumptions as developers get in the way of communications with > users. Many users may be unfamiliar with concepts or terminology that > to a developer seems commonplace and easy to understand. The 'user > representatives' are intended as a way to get feedback from > non-developers on such things, for example to ensure that a survey is > written in such a way as to be comprehensible to users before it is > sent out. The role is intended as a way to get reliable input from > non-developers in order to ensure that what we do has the maximum > benefit for users and developers alike. If you are a developer from a project who would like to be represented within user relations and we haven't been in touch with your project already there is a chance that we've overlooked you, in which case I am terribly sorry and welcome you to contact us and let us know. For the latter role, user representative, we will be looking for atleast a couple of more people to welcome more diversity. One of the things tha
