Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:55:45 -0700 Raymond Jennings wrote: > If I may ask, isn't usage by 27 packages ample grounds on its own to > make it a global use flag? > > This is one of the questions I noticed on the ebuild quiz, and there > the ballpark is around 5 packages sharing a use flag. we're way over > that mark. > > my two cents. What is mentioned there is criteria; however, the very last sentence is what makes the actual global USE flag be able to happen. Quote: "Before introducing a new global USE flag, it must be discussed on the gentoo-dev mailing list." So, for people to agree on something to be a global USE flag; amongst other things, they need to agree that the USE flag is useful and something we acknowledge we want to use globally. Otherwise I would for instance be able to start a bad idea in the added MATE packages... For reference, http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags PS: Can you avoid top posting? Like this mail, on mailing lists people commonly type their response after the message such that the context comes first and it is more understandable what is being responded to. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
If I may ask, isn't usage by 27 packages ample grounds on its own to make it a global use flag? This is one of the questions I noticed on the ebuild quiz, and there the ballpark is around 5 packages sharing a use flag. we're way over that mark. my two cents. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Tom Wijsman wrote: > On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:28:41 +0200 > Samuli Suominen wrote: > > > > > On 20/02/14 18:27, Tom Wijsman wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200 > > > Samuli Suominen wrote: > > > > > >> On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > > >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > >> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > >>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used > > >>> by 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > >>> > > >>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) > > >>> version 3 > > >>> > > >>> Ulrich > > >> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but > > >> temporary > > >> > > >> -1 from here > > >> > > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be > > > built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing > > > both, so +1 from me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does > > > not mean it's the greatest, and I really wish people would > > > realize that newest != bestest. > > > > > > > > Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it > > using that. Later when they have completed their support for > > GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not > > rocket science. > > > > >>> OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal > > >>> with both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or > > >>> the other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm > > >>> willing to deal with the headaches. Just because you're > > >>> unwilling doesn't mean others aren't. kthx. > > >>> > > >>> > > >> Bye bye distribution level consistency :-( > > >> > > >> It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that. > > >> > > >> - Samuli > > >> > > > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support > > > for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..." > > > > > > If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so. > > > It is pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which > > > somewhat can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit > > > the users' need, and not force our one true way upon them... > > > > > > Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously; > > > you can intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away > > > our happiness. On the other hand, there's the part where you want > > > to break it for a reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd > > > like to hear why. > > > > > > > So, no more setting USE="gtk" and assuming the best packaged software > > will be get installed, be it with what version of the toolkit, 1, 2 > > or 3 > > What is "best"? What you would deem best, could be worst for the user. > > > Instead, now you have to selectively do the maintainers job for > > figuring out which one is the best supported one > > The maintainer can use IUSE flag defaults for this; but, there are > users that want to control which toolkit is installed. Going further, > they want to decide which toolkit the software is built with. > > > Despite already picking up a modern theme with both GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ > > 3.x looks, now you might end up with half-crippled software just > > because some stubborn people choose the looks, not the functionality, > > to be their motivation > > You need to mask that as a packager. > > > Such people really don't deserve to own a packager status if they > > can't take the time to determine / examine the package's best > > supported graphical toolkit > > What is "best"? If upstream provides both and claims they both are > well supported, I consider both are. > > > If multiple ones with similar feature set is supported, then the > > latest toolkit is preferred > > What is "preferred"? What you prefer can be different than the user. > > > But seems like I'm repeating common sense which the GNOME guideline > > layed out long ago > > The GNOME guideline fits just the GNOME team and developers whom follow > that; however, in the bigger picture, there are maintainers that do not > follow that and do something different. Looking at the tracker [1]; it > appears that it is more common for such a bug to be marked as INVALID > or WONTFIX, than it is to be marked as FIXED. > > As a result of this, the users get an inconsistent USE flag presented. > > The "common sense" is just another wording of "opinion" here; if it > wants to be real "common sense" shared amongst alm
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:28:41 +0200 Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 20/02/14 18:27, Tom Wijsman wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200 > > Samuli Suominen wrote: > > > >> On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > >> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > >>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used > >>> by 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > >>> > >>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) > >>> version 3 > >>> > >>> Ulrich > >> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but > >> temporary > >> > >> -1 from here > >> > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be > > built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing > > both, so +1 from me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does > > not mean it's the greatest, and I really wish people would > > realize that newest != bestest. > > > > > Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it > using that. Later when they have completed their support for > GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not > rocket science. > > >>> OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal > >>> with both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or > >>> the other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm > >>> willing to deal with the headaches. Just because you're > >>> unwilling doesn't mean others aren't. kthx. > >>> > >>> > >> Bye bye distribution level consistency :-( > >> > >> It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that. > >> > >> - Samuli > >> > > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support > > for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..." > > > > If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so. > > It is pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which > > somewhat can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit > > the users' need, and not force our one true way upon them... > > > > Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously; > > you can intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away > > our happiness. On the other hand, there's the part where you want > > to break it for a reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd > > like to hear why. > > > > So, no more setting USE="gtk" and assuming the best packaged software > will be get installed, be it with what version of the toolkit, 1, 2 > or 3 What is "best"? What you would deem best, could be worst for the user. > Instead, now you have to selectively do the maintainers job for > figuring out which one is the best supported one The maintainer can use IUSE flag defaults for this; but, there are users that want to control which toolkit is installed. Going further, they want to decide which toolkit the software is built with. > Despite already picking up a modern theme with both GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ > 3.x looks, now you might end up with half-crippled software just > because some stubborn people choose the looks, not the functionality, > to be their motivation You need to mask that as a packager. > Such people really don't deserve to own a packager status if they > can't take the time to determine / examine the package's best > supported graphical toolkit What is "best"? If upstream provides both and claims they both are well supported, I consider both are. > If multiple ones with similar feature set is supported, then the > latest toolkit is preferred What is "preferred"? What you prefer can be different than the user. > But seems like I'm repeating common sense which the GNOME guideline > layed out long ago The GNOME guideline fits just the GNOME team and developers whom follow that; however, in the bigger picture, there are maintainers that do not follow that and do something different. Looking at the tracker [1]; it appears that it is more common for such a bug to be marked as INVALID or WONTFIX, than it is to be marked as FIXED. As a result of this, the users get an inconsistent USE flag presented. The "common sense" is just another wording of "opinion" here; if it wants to be real "common sense" shared amongst almost everyone, it'll need a bit more than a guideline. [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL%20blocked%3A420493 -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20/02/14 18:27, Tom Wijsman wrote: > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200 > Samuli Suominen wrote: > >> On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: >> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: >>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by >>> 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: >>> >>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version >>> 3 >>> >>> Ulrich >> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but >> temporary >> >> -1 from here >> > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be > built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, > so +1 from me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean > it's the greatest, and I really wish people would realize that > newest != bestest. > > Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it using that. Later when they have completed their support for GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not rocket science. >>> OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal with >>> both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or the >>> other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm willing >>> to deal with the headaches. Just because you're unwilling doesn't >>> mean others aren't. kthx. >>> >>> >> Bye bye distribution level consistency :-( >> >> It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that. >> >> - Samuli >> > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support > for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..." > > If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so. It is > pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which somewhat > can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit the users' > need, and not force our one true way upon them... > > Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously; you can > intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away our happiness. > On the other hand, there's the part where you want to break it for a > reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd like to hear why. > So, no more setting USE="gtk" and assuming the best packaged software will be get installed, be it with what version of the toolkit, 1, 2 or 3 Instead, now you have to selectively do the maintainers job for figuring out which one is the best supported one Despite already picking up a modern theme with both GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3.x looks, now you might end up with half-crippled software just because some stubborn people choose the looks, not the functionality, to be their motivation Such people really don't deserve to own a packager status if they can't take the time to determine / examine the package's best supported graphical toolkit If multiple ones with similar feature set is supported, then the latest toolkit is preferred But seems like I'm repeating common sense which the GNOME guideline layed out long ago Bunch of new QA developers shoudn't have any power to override that
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:41:58 + hasufell wrote: > But the question is... what sane alternative to REQUIRED_USE? That > will also have impact on a lot of eclasses. Either pkg_pretend, or Exherbo's MYOPTIONS. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Ciaran McCreesh: > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:48:11 +0100 Ulrich Mueller > wrote: >> We don't want users having to solve a Zebra Puzzle [1] (or, for >> the more theoretically inclined, a satisfiability problem [2]) to >> find an acceptable combination of their USE flags. > > Actually, REQUIRED_USE was introduced precisely to require users > to solve SAT without help... As you may recall, we *were* going to > use pkg_pretend for this sort of thing to give the users a friendly > error message, but this was replaced at the last minute with > REQUIRED_USE to force package manglers to reduce the quality of > error message that's produced. > > So really we should just scrap REQUIRED_USE in EAPI 6, and migrate > any ebuilds currently using it to a sane alternative. > One thing that bothers me most about gentoo is a discussion I had with a colleague who uses FreeBSD. It ended up like... gentoo is interesting, but wtf all those USE flags and no idea how to even get something to build without reading through forum threads, mailing lists, et c. ... and finally trying to get help on IRC. That guy is not new to linux. And he is right. Usability is not our strongest thing. That's why I pushed for a clear decision on this matter, because the whole thing is already confusing and weird enough for new users. The new python eclasses and multilib added to that complexity (but that will hopefully be gone when the transition is over, more or less). People who regularly hack and play with gentoo don't have any problem with those things and quickly get ideas about emerge conflicts based on experience... where a new user would never get to the root of the problem and just give up. But the question is... what sane alternative to REQUIRED_USE? That will also have impact on a lot of eclasses. Also... I find mgornys idea not too bad, meaning USE flag naming should be feature oriented and not implementation oriented. That is definitely an issue QA has to comment on. But I really feel we will get some hate from people who try to avoid certain implementations for one or another reason. And there can be valid reasons. So those people will have to use alternatives like package.mask. Another problem I see is that e.g. "gui" could be a bit too generic. If some dev uses it for an ncurses gui in his ebuild... then we have successfully screwed up easy setup of X-less servers, because "-gui" will also kill all non-X guis. Anyway... what we can do to improve the overall situation while discussing this: use proper local USE flag descriptions. "Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit)" is totally useless in 95% of the cases. Still... a lot of ebuilds don't override that description. So I often end up actually unpacking the source tarball and reading the configure description. Fail. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTBjBWAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWza6EIAIoctpgmuUN8m793AtkaLExI WvI85BzjxLZ/71w4wNC2Fgeqid4qvTMlopCnqfqSrXBJqXPwiuhsDMTh2DPQOuRU hm3DvZSbApCJnGXqwE3XeJSarQnmBZ+Ynbkv/keqLWsErG/6BxRxsK4a1DW36vhf MB60Ysb2bpI/vn+ihtbHUCC/Z5LzzY8CtvC4cqydoVfl4hPxbi+oZaaoBM8Ul9AJ no9Ql7lK6J5SRuLqs8vB5XAYdt+crm76fzg0kMpNm4zkNNMqOLDIUYy/tLXqibwl TnGvah9PeN9mxo72iURIhXbnIUeoabShr3ELKSgu22QZ1l7yG3WGhoGMGoOTqIU= =LaFD -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200 Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > >> On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version > > 3 > > > > Ulrich > that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but > temporary > > -1 from here > > >>> MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be > >>> built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, > >>> so +1 from me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean > >>> it's the greatest, and I really wish people would realize that > >>> newest != bestest. > >>> > >>> > >> Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it > >> using that. Later when they have completed their support for > >> GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not > >> rocket science. > >> > > OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal with > > both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or the > > other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm willing > > to deal with the headaches. Just because you're unwilling doesn't > > mean others aren't. kthx. > > > > > > Bye bye distribution level consistency :-( > > It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that. > > - Samuli > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..." If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so. It is pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which somewhat can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit the users' need, and not force our one true way upon them... Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously; you can intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away our happiness. On the other hand, there's the part where you want to break it for a reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd like to hear why. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:48:11 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote: > We don't want users having to solve a Zebra Puzzle [1] (or, for the > more theoretically inclined, a satisfiability problem [2]) to find > an acceptable combination of their USE flags. Actually, REQUIRED_USE was introduced precisely to require users to solve SAT without help... As you may recall, we *were* going to use pkg_pretend for this sort of thing to give the users a friendly error message, but this was replaced at the last minute with REQUIRED_USE to force package manglers to reduce the quality of error message that's produced. So really we should just scrap REQUIRED_USE in EAPI 6, and migrate any ebuilds currently using it to a sane alternative. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2014, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: > I see. So you want USE="gtk gtk3" to mean the same thing that gnome > team had intended USE="gtk" to mean, which is to say, "pick > whichever gtk version that is the most sensible". Exactly. > That could work. There are already a few ebuilds, e.g. audacious, > with REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )" - so before this unfortunate > practice spreads further, the gnome team would need to note on the > wiki to make sure other developers know why this is especially > undesirable for the gtk/gtk3 flag pair. Devs should really follow the policy outlined in the devmanual. REQUIRED_USE was introduced to solve a specific problem with USE dependencies (which can break if a USE flag is ignored in an ebuild because it is superseded by another one). It shouldn't be used all over the place. We don't want users having to solve a Zebra Puzzle [1] (or, for the more theoretically inclined, a satisfiability problem [2]) to find an acceptable combination of their USE flags. Ulrich [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_Puzzle [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem pgpaxf5ffTwfe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:28:36 +0200 Samuli Suominen wrote: > >On 20/02/14 11:23, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: >> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 03:59 -0500, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: >>> And this is an example of why everyone on the gnome team doesn't >>> like the "gtk3" flag. Because well-meaning developers will be >>> looking at their one corner of the portage tree, deciding that they >>> are going to handle the choice of gtk version without slotting, and >>> not consider the effect on the distro as a whole. >>> >>> You know what's going to happen now, after the QA team decision? >>> >>> First of all, lots of developers will start renaming "gtk" to >>> "gtk3" in their ebuilds' IUSE. >>> >>> Which means "gtk gtk3" will soon have to be added to USE in >>> targets/desktop/gnome/make.defaults (currently, the gnome profile >>> globally only has USE="gtk" because the "gtk3" flag is evil). >>> >>> And users of non-gnome profiles who use gnome applications will of >>> course manually add "gtk gtk3" to USE in their local make.conf. >>> >>> Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going >>> to start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because >>> of course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the >>> merrier, and the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA >>> team. And that means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". >>> >>> For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big >>> list of "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in >>> targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that gnome users get a >>> sensible choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* just to >>> emerge widely used desktop tools. >>> >>> But for non-gnome users who manually added USE=gtk3 to make.conf, >>> this means regular emerge conflicts after sync, forcing them to >>> *guess* whether "-gtk" or "-gtk3" in pacakge.use is the better >>> choice. Maybe with portage auto-suggesting the wrong solution just >>> to add to the wonderful user experience :/ >>> >> See, now this is an example of a good email as to why supporting both >> can be a hassle for more than just one desktop. Instead of telling >> me that I'm dumb for thinking it's a good idea to follow upstream's >> supported ideas, and that we should force one or the other. >> >> The KDE team seems to be able to deal with it just fine, but somehow >> it's impossible and hard for the GNOME team. Why is that? What does >> KDE do differently that makes it feasible? >> >> > >No, they didn't manage it, at all, which why we don't see Qt3/KDE3 in >tree anymore. > Very bad excuse... They punted kde3 because they didn't have the manpower to stem both KDEs... -- Lars Wendler Gentoo package maintainer GPG: 4DD8 C47C CDFA 5295 E1A6 3FC8 F696 74AB 981C A6FC signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:26 +0100, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: > > > Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going > > to start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because > > of course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the > > merrier, and the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA > > team. And that means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". > > No, in most cases REQUIRED_USE would be against policy. The actual > policy is to "pick one of the USE flags in conflict to favour and > should alert the user that a particular flag is being used instead", > see the devmanual: > http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags/index.html > > > For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big > > list of "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in > > targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that gnome users get a sensible > > choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* just to emerge widely > > used desktop tools. > > Right, and that's exactly the reason why REQUIRED_USE should not be > used, except where it's forced be reverse USE dependencies. Quoting > the devmanual again: > "Note: In order to avoid forcing users to micro-manage flags too much, > REQUIRED_USE should be used sparingly. Follow the normal policy > whenever it is possible to do a build that will presumably suit the > user's needs." > > Ulrich I see. So you want USE="gtk gtk3" to mean the same thing that gnome team had intended USE="gtk" to mean, which is to say, "pick whichever gtk version that is the most sensible". That could work. There are already a few ebuilds, e.g. audacious, with REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )" - so before this unfortunate practice spreads further, the gnome team would need to note on the wiki to make sure other developers know why this is especially undesirable for the gtk/gtk3 flag pair. The other unfortunate aspect of the gtk3 flag is that it encourages using flags instead of slotting for libraries that can support both gtk and gtk3, resulting in needless rebuilds of when one of the flags is switched on/off. But again, that could be addressed with a bit of documentation. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20 Feb 2014 10:12, "Michał Górny" wrote: > > Dnia 2014-02-20, o godz. 01:44:17 > Steev Klimaszewski napisał(a): > > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > > On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > > > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > > > > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > > > > > > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > > > > > > > Ulrich > > > > > > that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary > > > > > > -1 from here > > > > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built > > against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from > > me. > > Except that now users have to use USE='gtk gtk3' to get GUIs in random > applications that support only one toolkit. And then handle > REQUIRED_USE mess for packages that support choosing one of the two. > > > Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, > > and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. > > Yet it's supported, unlike GTK+2. I really wish people would actually > step up to fix bugs when the time comes rather than shouting about their > right to choose. The main idea here is to create a system that is consistent. Yes, gtk2 is still used and IMO we need to provide support for it as long as there are apps linked to it with no real alternatives. But we also need to think about the future. The situation today is a total mess. In an ideal world, gtk3 would replace gtk2 everywhere in an instant, making this discussion pointless. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Versioned USE flags solve most of the problems with minimum fuss, while paving the road for a much cleaner gtk3 -> gtk4 transition. We don't really need generic use flags anyway. Adding gtk3 to your USE is really easy and I expect our user base to be able to handle these things with ease. Alex
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 03:23 -0600, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > The KDE team seems to be able to deal with it just fine, but somehow > it's impossible and hard for the GNOME team. Why is that? What does > KDE do differently that makes it feasible? The KDE ecosystem moved from qt3 to qt4 around 2007-2009, when Gentoo was at EAPI1 and EAPI2 (so no REQUIRED_USE), plus it happened so long ago that any pain from the transition period has been forgotten :) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20/02/14 11:23, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 03:59 -0500, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: >> And this is an example of why everyone on the gnome team doesn't like >> the "gtk3" flag. Because well-meaning developers will be looking at >> their one corner of the portage tree, deciding that they are going to >> handle the choice of gtk version without slotting, and not consider the >> effect on the distro as a whole. >> >> You know what's going to happen now, after the QA team decision? >> >> First of all, lots of developers will start renaming "gtk" to "gtk3" in >> their ebuilds' IUSE. >> >> Which means "gtk gtk3" will soon have to be added to USE in >> targets/desktop/gnome/make.defaults (currently, the gnome profile >> globally only has USE="gtk" because the "gtk3" flag is evil). >> >> And users of non-gnome profiles who use gnome applications will of >> course manually add "gtk gtk3" to USE in their local make.conf. >> >> Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going to >> start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because of >> course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the merrier, and >> the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA team. And that >> means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". >> >> For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big list of >> "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that >> gnome users get a sensible choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* >> just to emerge widely used desktop tools. >> >> But for non-gnome users who manually added USE=gtk3 to make.conf, this >> means regular emerge conflicts after sync, forcing them to *guess* >> whether "-gtk" or "-gtk3" in pacakge.use is the better choice. Maybe >> with portage auto-suggesting the wrong solution just to add to the >> wonderful user experience :/ >> > See, now this is an example of a good email as to why supporting both > can be a hassle for more than just one desktop. Instead of telling me > that I'm dumb for thinking it's a good idea to follow upstream's > supported ideas, and that we should force one or the other. > > The KDE team seems to be able to deal with it just fine, but somehow > it's impossible and hard for the GNOME team. Why is that? What does > KDE do differently that makes it feasible? > > No, they didn't manage it, at all, which why we don't see Qt3/KDE3 in tree anymore.
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: >> On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > Ulrich that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary -1 from here >>> MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built >>> against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from >>> me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, >>> and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. >>> >>> >> Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it using that. >> Later when they have completed their support for GTK+-3, and it's the >> best supported, you ship that. It's not rocket science. >> > OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal with > both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or the other. > Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm willing to deal > with the headaches. Just because you're unwilling doesn't mean others > aren't. kthx. > > Bye bye distribution level consistency :-( It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that. - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2014, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: > Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going > to start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because > of course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the > merrier, and the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA > team. And that means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". No, in most cases REQUIRED_USE would be against policy. The actual policy is to "pick one of the USE flags in conflict to favour and should alert the user that a particular flag is being used instead", see the devmanual: http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags/index.html > For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big > list of "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in > targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that gnome users get a sensible > choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* just to emerge widely > used desktop tools. Right, and that's exactly the reason why REQUIRED_USE should not be used, except where it's forced be reverse USE dependencies. Quoting the devmanual again: "Note: In order to avoid forcing users to micro-manage flags too much, REQUIRED_USE should be used sparingly. Follow the normal policy whenever it is possible to do a build that will presumably suit the user's needs." Ulrich pgpaoSr1YvHDx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 03:59 -0500, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote: > And this is an example of why everyone on the gnome team doesn't like > the "gtk3" flag. Because well-meaning developers will be looking at > their one corner of the portage tree, deciding that they are going to > handle the choice of gtk version without slotting, and not consider the > effect on the distro as a whole. > > You know what's going to happen now, after the QA team decision? > > First of all, lots of developers will start renaming "gtk" to "gtk3" in > their ebuilds' IUSE. > > Which means "gtk gtk3" will soon have to be added to USE in > targets/desktop/gnome/make.defaults (currently, the gnome profile > globally only has USE="gtk" because the "gtk3" flag is evil). > > And users of non-gnome profiles who use gnome applications will of > course manually add "gtk gtk3" to USE in their local make.conf. > > Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going to > start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because of > course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the merrier, and > the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA team. And that > means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". > > For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big list of > "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that > gnome users get a sensible choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* > just to emerge widely used desktop tools. > > But for non-gnome users who manually added USE=gtk3 to make.conf, this > means regular emerge conflicts after sync, forcing them to *guess* > whether "-gtk" or "-gtk3" in pacakge.use is the better choice. Maybe > with portage auto-suggesting the wrong solution just to add to the > wonderful user experience :/ > See, now this is an example of a good email as to why supporting both can be a hassle for more than just one desktop. Instead of telling me that I'm dumb for thinking it's a good idea to follow upstream's supported ideas, and that we should force one or the other. The KDE team seems to be able to deal with it just fine, but somehow it's impossible and hard for the GNOME team. Why is that? What does KDE do differently that makes it feasible?
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 02:47 -0600, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal with > both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or the other. > Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm willing to deal > with the headaches. Just because you're unwilling doesn't mean others > aren't. kthx. And this is an example of why everyone on the gnome team doesn't like the "gtk3" flag. Because well-meaning developers will be looking at their one corner of the portage tree, deciding that they are going to handle the choice of gtk version without slotting, and not consider the effect on the distro as a whole. You know what's going to happen now, after the QA team decision? First of all, lots of developers will start renaming "gtk" to "gtk3" in their ebuilds' IUSE. Which means "gtk gtk3" will soon have to be added to USE in targets/desktop/gnome/make.defaults (currently, the gnome profile globally only has USE="gtk" because the "gtk3" flag is evil). And users of non-gnome profiles who use gnome applications will of course manually add "gtk gtk3" to USE in their local make.conf. Unfortunately, at the same time, lots of other developers are going to start adding support for building against gtk2 XOR gtk3. Because of course "Gentoo is about choice", and the more choices, the merrier, and the gtk3 flag has been declared as supported by the QA team. And that means lots of REQUIRED_USE="^^ ( gtk gtk3 )". For the gnome team this results in a headache: maintaining a big list of "-gtk" / "-gtk3" entries in targets/desktop/gnome/package.use so that gnome users get a sensible choice and don't need to edit /etc/portage/* just to emerge widely used desktop tools. But for non-gnome users who manually added USE=gtk3 to make.conf, this means regular emerge conflicts after sync, forcing them to *guess* whether "-gtk" or "-gtk3" in pacakge.use is the better choice. Maybe with portage auto-suggesting the wrong solution just to add to the wonderful user experience :/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 09:11 +0100, Michał Górny wrote: > Dnia 2014-02-20, o godz. 01:44:17 > Steev Klimaszewski napisał(a): > > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > > On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > > > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > > > > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > > > > > > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > > > > > > > Ulrich > > > > > > that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary > > > > > > -1 from here > > > > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built > > against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from > > me. > > Except that now users have to use USE='gtk gtk3' to get GUIs in random > applications that support only one toolkit. And then handle > REQUIRED_USE mess for packages that support choosing one of the two. > Sorry? Still better than forcing things on because it allows me to be lazy. > > Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, > > and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. > > Yet it's supported, unlike GTK+2. I really wish people would actually > step up to fix bugs when the time comes rather than shouting about their > right to choose. > Who is shouting about right to choose? In fact, I see only MATE in capital letters there, and that's because that's the way that it's written by upstream. Just because you enjoy forcing people to do things your way, doesn't mean everyone feels the need to be controlling. I'm cool with giving the users choice, it doesn't HAVE to be done, but I'm not so against it that I insist they follow my one true way...
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2014, Michał Górny wrote: > Except that now users have to use USE='gtk gtk3' to get GUIs in > random applications that support only one toolkit. And then handle > REQUIRED_USE mess for packages that support choosing one of the two. Why REQUIRED_USE? A package can prefer one of the alternatives if both flags are specified. Probably it's a good idea to emit a warning, though. Ulrich pgpJuT3ABBNMC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > >> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > >>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > >>> 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > >>> > >>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > >>> > >>> Ulrich > >> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary > >> > >> -1 from here > >> > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built > > against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from > > me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, > > and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. > > > > > > Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it using that. > Later when they have completed their support for GTK+-3, and it's the > best supported, you ship that. It's not rocket science. > OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal with both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or the other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm willing to deal with the headaches. Just because you're unwilling doesn't mean others aren't. kthx.
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: >> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: >>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by >>> 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: >>> >>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 >>> >>> Ulrich >> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary >> >> -1 from here >> > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built > against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from > me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, > and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. > > Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it using that. Later when they have completed their support for GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not rocket science.
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 23:23:23 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote: >Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by >27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > >gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > >Ulrich +1 gtk+:3 still is a mess even in its tenth incarnation... -- Lars Wendler Gentoo package maintainer GPG: 4DD8 C47C CDFA 5295 E1A6 3FC8 F696 74AB 981C A6FC signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
Dnia 2014-02-20, o godz. 01:44:17 Steev Klimaszewski napisał(a): > On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > > > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > > > > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > > > > > Ulrich > > > > that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary > > > > -1 from here > > > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built > against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from > me. Except that now users have to use USE='gtk gtk3' to get GUIs in random applications that support only one toolkit. And then handle REQUIRED_USE mess for packages that support choosing one of the two. > Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, > and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest. Yet it's supported, unlike GTK+2. I really wish people would actually step up to fix bugs when the time comes rather than shouting about their right to choose. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote: > On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > > > Ulrich > > that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary > > -1 from here > MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing both, so +1 from me. Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does not mean it's the greatest, and I really wish people would realize that newest != bestest.
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by > 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: > > gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 > > Ulrich that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but temporary -1 from here
[gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used by 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag: gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit) version 3 Ulrich pgpo0uXzcQQml.pgp Description: PGP signature
