Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Fri, 20 May 2016 21:47:56 -0700 Matt Turner wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Daniel Campbell > wrote: > > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying > > some devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages > > that they already maintain? > > No, you've misunderstood. > > He's saying people add new packages and then speculatively add > keywords for a bunch of architectures that they haven't tested. No, that's already covered very well in the quizzes and devmanual. What I mean is keyword requests of the type: "Hi, I maintain this package now, and I'm very excited about it, so can I have these random keywords added, please?" I have plenty of examples of such keyword requests collected over the years; anyone should be able to find them easily. Regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 05/20/2016 09:47 PM, Matt Turner wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some >> devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that they >> already maintain? > > No, you've misunderstood. > > He's saying people add new packages and then speculatively add > keywords for a bunch of architectures that they haven't tested. This > causes unnecessary packages to be keyworded on archs that don't want > them and can hardly afford the extra load. > > The appropriate thing to do when adding a new package is to add only > keywords you can test and maintain (likely just ~amd64), and then file > a keyword request to ask arch teams to keyword the package if > appropriate, which leaves the choice to them. > Ah, I see. In that case I'm in full agreement. We're taught during the mentoring/quizzing process that we don't keyword what we haven't tested. That's one of the most basic "rules". -- Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some > devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that they > already maintain? No, you've misunderstood. He's saying people add new packages and then speculatively add keywords for a bunch of architectures that they haven't tested. This causes unnecessary packages to be keyworded on archs that don't want them and can hardly afford the extra load. The appropriate thing to do when adding a new package is to add only keywords you can test and maintain (likely just ~amd64), and then file a keyword request to ask arch teams to keyword the package if appropriate, which leaves the choice to them.
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 10:09:04AM +0800, Ian Delaney wrote: > On Fri, 20 May 2016 16:00:02 +0200 > Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > > On Thu, 19 May 2016 18:36:22 -0700 > > Daniel Campbell wrote: > > > > > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying > > > some devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages > > > that they already maintain? If said arches are already supported in > > > Gentoo I see little problem with that, especially if they intend on > > > being part of the arch testing team for that arch or have access to > > > the hardware. > > > > I am not talking about adding architecture keywords to profiles/. > > I am talking about adding architecture keywords to ebuilds. > > > > > > Regards, > > jer > > > > Firstly I think previous replies have been de-railed on talking about > new alternate arches, which personally I think is the last thing we > need. If there is any confusion it is because the term keyword, like > most terms in I.T. gets pushed and pulled and stretched until it breaks. > To my understanding, KEYWORDS are arches. But being told to 'keyword' a > package could mean perhaps, well, Hu knows. I don't know of any other usages of "KEYWORDS" within Gentoo - to my knowledge the only definition is a list of which architectures a package is known to work or not work on, and an indication of the level of testing and expected usability on that architecture. Is there some other definition that I'm missing? > Supporting users doing just this lately, I have come across this a few > times. Users and new devs are expected to be very ignorant of minor > arches, and despite having docs already informing them that they are > short staffed and have enough to do, the practicalities of how and why > to keyword request or not are still veiled in mystery. Users want to > keyword according to what they see supported upstream just because > they can. They appear to need it made manually clear to them that there > are qualifiers and conditions for putting something up for keywording. > These also I believe are as much as mystery to users as they are to > devs. Appropriate use of KEYWORDS is actually covered in the Developer quizzes, so I would have instead expected new developers to be more acutely aware of the fact that keywording on minor arches should be generally reserved for an as-needed basis. > How to establish a level of desire form userland to have gentoo > support the arch in the package?? > How to establish sane rationale for it being put up for stable?? > The last I heard was along the lines of, well, only put it up if it has > already been put up in the past.(someone in the past had a check list?) > > If anyone, the members of the arch teams might have some insights based > upon first hand dealing with packages and their categories. Frankly, > how you can expect or achieve users and new devs to assess these is > more the issue, and I do not see there is any obvious path of becoming > informed of the interest of an invisible audience; userland As far as I know, users (as in non-maintainers - those out "in the wild") can file keyword request bugs and it's up to the maintainer to then determine relevancy and CC appropriate arch teams; and Bugzilla has a voting feature[0] allowing users to indicate the strength of community demand by voting on those bugs (which I have seen done previously). [0] https://bugs.gentoo.org/page.cgi?id=fields.html#votes -- Sam Jorna GnuPG Key: D6180C26 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Fri, 20 May 2016 16:00:02 +0200 Jeroen Roovers wrote: > On Thu, 19 May 2016 18:36:22 -0700 > Daniel Campbell wrote: > > > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying > > some devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages > > that they already maintain? If said arches are already supported in > > Gentoo I see little problem with that, especially if they intend on > > being part of the arch testing team for that arch or have access to > > the hardware. > > I am not talking about adding architecture keywords to profiles/. > I am talking about adding architecture keywords to ebuilds. > > > Regards, > jer > Firstly I think previous replies have been de-railed on talking about new alternate arches, which personally I think is the last thing we need. If there is any confusion it is because the term keyword, like most terms in I.T. gets pushed and pulled and stretched until it breaks. To my understanding, KEYWORDS are arches. But being told to 'keyword' a package could mean perhaps, well, Hu knows. Supporting users doing just this lately, I have come across this a few times. Users and new devs are expected to be very ignorant of minor arches, and despite having docs already informing them that they are short staffed and have enough to do, the practicalities of how and why to keyword request or not are still veiled in mystery. Users want to keyword according to what they see supported upstream just because they can. They appear to need it made manually clear to them that there are qualifiers and conditions for putting something up for keywording. These also I believe are as much as mystery to users as they are to devs. How to establish a level of desire form userland to have gentoo support the arch in the package?? How to establish sane rationale for it being put up for stable?? The last I heard was along the lines of, well, only put it up if it has already been put up in the past.(someone in the past had a check list?) If anyone, the members of the arch teams might have some insights based upon first hand dealing with packages and their categories. Frankly, how you can expect or achieve users and new devs to assess these is more the issue, and I do not see there is any obvious path of becoming informed of the interest of an invisible audience; userland Hu knows -- kind regards Ian Delaney
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Thu, 19 May 2016 18:36:22 -0700 Daniel Campbell wrote: > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some > devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that > they already maintain? If said arches are already supported in Gentoo > I see little problem with that, especially if they intend on being > part of the arch testing team for that arch or have access to the > hardware. I am not talking about adding architecture keywords to profiles/. I am talking about adding architecture keywords to ebuilds. Regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 20/05/16 14:11, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote: > >> keywording for a new arch should normally only be done when necessary, >> mainly if it is a direct dependency of another package. There is no need >> to keywor it for an arch until it has been tested on that arch by some >> user / developer ... certainly not because some committing developer >> think it is nice to have all arches listed just in case. >> > I should actually elaborate on this (in addition to fixing some spelling > errors..), something to the line of "There is no need to keyword it for > an arch until it is being _used_ by some user/developer on that arch" > My understanding as a prospective maintainer and dev, was that when you write an ebuild, you keyword the arches where /you personally/ have successfully built the package as ~arch . If you as maintainer or a user(s) then request stabilisation, that is where the arch teams, arch testing, etc. come into play. The only exception (if any!) is where amd64 and x86 often have an overlap whereby if it builds on one .. there's a good probability it will work on the other. As far as fresh *new* arches to Gentoo, is this really a thing?! Surely we need a body of maintainers willing to support a new arch, and a new 'team' forming for such purposes, for bug fixes, stabilisation, etc. Sounds to me rather a case of simply misunderstanding what the KEYWORDS actually means and does in the context of Gentoo as a distro, else I've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 05/20/2016 05:38 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote: > On 05/20/2016 03:36 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> On 05/19/2016 07:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > .. > >>> >> To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some >> devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that they >> already maintain? If said arches are already supported in Gentoo I see >> little problem with that, especially if they intend on being part of the >> arch testing team for that arch or have access to the hardware. > > Can you elaborate on your definition of supported in this case? does it > deviate from stable arches (alpha, amd64, arm, hppa, ia64, ppc, ppc64, > sparc, x86)? I would say yes, if Gentoo has the manpower to maintain a stable branch for an arch, it's supported. How *well* it's supported is a separate concern and equally important. > >> >> But if this is a case of developers asking for arch keywords to be added >> for arches that aren't (yet) supported in Gentoo, I agree that we need >> some sort of formal requirements, much like we do for stabilization (30 >> days no bugs, etc). Covering it in the devmanual is a great idea. > > keywording for a new arch should normally only be done when necessary, > mainly if it is a direct dependency of another package. There is no need > to keywor it for an arch until it has been tested on that arch by some > user / developer ... certainly not because some committing developer > think it is nice to have all arches listed just in case. > > It is actually already [covered in the devmanual]; " It's important to > note that alternative arches (like alpha, ia64, s390, sh, sparc, hppa, > ppc*) are mainly undermanned arches, some of them are slow, they have > more basic problems and have a small userbase. Just file bugs for these > architectures when a package is going to be a dependency of a package > already keyworded. " Nice citation, I remember reading that last year. :) I agree: a new arch should have users and testing backing it up so it doesn't get added and later disappears or is left to sit and rot. As far as I understand, we have the arches that we do because there are developers and users willing to build it, submit bugs, and maintain it. New arches should be held to the same standard. > >> >> But adding keywords, as we know, comes with maintenance burden. New > > Indeed, more people should think of this. Adding packages in itself adds > maintenance burdens for other teams and the usefulness should be > considered accordingly before doing so > >> arches can't get supported without people active in the community and >> actually using the hardware. If that interest isn't there, why should we >> add the keywords to the main repo? Overlays may be a fine alternative. >> >> Just my 2¢. Thanks for bringing this up, it's a topic I didn't know was >> a concern. >> > > References: > [covered in the devmanual] > https://devmanual.gentoo.org/keywording/index.html > > > -- Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 05/20/2016 02:38 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote: > On 05/20/2016 03:36 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> On 05/19/2016 07:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > > keywording for a new arch should normally only be done when necessary, > mainly if it is a direct dependency of another package. There is no need > to keywor it for an arch until it has been tested on that arch by some > user / developer ... certainly not because some committing developer > think it is nice to have all arches listed just in case. > I should actually elaborate on this (in addition to fixing some spelling errors..), something to the line of "There is no need to keyword it for an arch until it is being _used_ by some user/developer on that arch" -- Kristian Fiskerstrand OpenPGP certificate reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 05/20/2016 03:36 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 05/19/2016 07:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: .. >> > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some > devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that they > already maintain? If said arches are already supported in Gentoo I see > little problem with that, especially if they intend on being part of the > arch testing team for that arch or have access to the hardware. Can you elaborate on your definition of supported in this case? does it deviate from stable arches (alpha, amd64, arm, hppa, ia64, ppc, ppc64, sparc, x86)? > > But if this is a case of developers asking for arch keywords to be added > for arches that aren't (yet) supported in Gentoo, I agree that we need > some sort of formal requirements, much like we do for stabilization (30 > days no bugs, etc). Covering it in the devmanual is a great idea. keywording for a new arch should normally only be done when necessary, mainly if it is a direct dependency of another package. There is no need to keywor it for an arch until it has been tested on that arch by some user / developer ... certainly not because some committing developer think it is nice to have all arches listed just in case. It is actually already [covered in the devmanual]; " It's important to note that alternative arches (like alpha, ia64, s390, sh, sparc, hppa, ppc*) are mainly undermanned arches, some of them are slow, they have more basic problems and have a small userbase. Just file bugs for these architectures when a package is going to be a dependency of a package already keyworded. " > > But adding keywords, as we know, comes with maintenance burden. New Indeed, more people should think of this. Adding packages in itself adds maintenance burdens for other teams and the usefulness should be considered accordingly before doing so > arches can't get supported without people active in the community and > actually using the hardware. If that interest isn't there, why should we > add the keywords to the main repo? Overlays may be a fine alternative. > > Just my 2¢. Thanks for bringing this up, it's a topic I didn't know was > a concern. > References: [covered in the devmanual] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/keywording/index.html -- Kristian Fiskerstrand OpenPGP certificate reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On 05/19/2016 07:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > Perhaps it's a good idea to add a section to the devmanual about adding > new keywords to packages. > > Recruits in particular might benefit from some background on what > keywording means and when it should be done, especially before they > start maintaining packages and then realise their packages are so > beautiful that they positively *deserve* to have some random keywords > added. This is not productive. > > The way it works is that users of > specific architectures find that a package works for them on their > systems (which have enough resources and have the correct interfaces for > that particular program to be used conveniently, and so on), and that > they then request that their architecture keyword be added. What > doesn't work is having a handful of keywords on a package that nobody > cares about who actually uses the architectures in question. > > Since over the years the Random Keyword Requests happen a *lot* right > after recruitment, it might even be useful to ask about this in the > quizzes. (The answer: your time is better spent fixing actual bugs. > bumping versions, adding features and maintaining a stable branch, > rather than raising the architecture count for your packages for no > adequately explored reason.) > > > Kind regards, > jer > To make sure I understand what you're getting at, are you saying some devs get on board and then request to add keywords to packages that they already maintain? If said arches are already supported in Gentoo I see little problem with that, especially if they intend on being part of the arch testing team for that arch or have access to the hardware. But if this is a case of developers asking for arch keywords to be added for arches that aren't (yet) supported in Gentoo, I agree that we need some sort of formal requirements, much like we do for stabilization (30 days no bugs, etc). Covering it in the devmanual is a great idea. How many packages do you think is necessary before 'critical mass' is reached and Gentoo should support it? I'm thinking it's less about the number of packages, and more about the community around that arch as well as whether or not a stage3 can be built for that arch in a reasonable timeframe. If it can get coreutils up and going, a stage3 can be built, and the handbook can be followed for that arch without issues (say, with an overlay), it seems like that would be a case for adding the keyword. But adding keywords, as we know, comes with maintenance burden. New arches can't get supported without people active in the community and actually using the hardware. If that interest isn't there, why should we add the keywords to the main repo? Overlays may be a fine alternative. Just my 2¢. Thanks for bringing this up, it's a topic I didn't know was a concern. -- Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > Perhaps it's a good idea to add a section to the devmanual about adding > new keywords to packages. > > Recruits in particular might benefit from some background on what > keywording means and when it should be done, especially before they > start maintaining packages and then realise their packages are so > beautiful that they positively *deserve* to have some random keywords > added. This is not productive. > > The way it works is that users of > specific architectures find that a package works for them on their > systems (which have enough resources and have the correct interfaces for > that particular program to be used conveniently, and so on), and that > they then request that their architecture keyword be added. What > doesn't work is having a handful of keywords on a package that nobody > cares about who actually uses the architectures in question. > > Since over the years the Random Keyword Requests happen a *lot* right > after recruitment, it might even be useful to ask about this in the > quizzes. (The answer: your time is better spent fixing actual bugs. > bumping versions, adding features and maintaining a stable branch, > rather than raising the architecture count for your packages for no > adequately explored reason.) > > > Kind regards, > jer > Both ideas (devmanual update + quiz question) seem good to me.
[gentoo-dev] new developers' keyword requests
Perhaps it's a good idea to add a section to the devmanual about adding new keywords to packages. Recruits in particular might benefit from some background on what keywording means and when it should be done, especially before they start maintaining packages and then realise their packages are so beautiful that they positively *deserve* to have some random keywords added. This is not productive. The way it works is that users of specific architectures find that a package works for them on their systems (which have enough resources and have the correct interfaces for that particular program to be used conveniently, and so on), and that they then request that their architecture keyword be added. What doesn't work is having a handful of keywords on a package that nobody cares about who actually uses the architectures in question. Since over the years the Random Keyword Requests happen a *lot* right after recruitment, it might even be useful to ask about this in the quizzes. (The answer: your time is better spent fixing actual bugs. bumping versions, adding features and maintaining a stable branch, rather than raising the architecture count for your packages for no adequately explored reason.) Kind regards, jer