Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote: > I could run these commands conditionally in postinst to make this > an automatic upgrade for people who have 'xdm' currently installed and > enabled in the default runlevel. > But I really don't think that running these commands is that big an > inconvenience. It is more inconvenient than _not_ having to run them. IMHO that is sufficient reason to stay away from renaming. Ulrich signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/23/20 3:50 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote: and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager': rc-update del xdm default rc-update add display-manager default So, no automatic upgrade path for users? I am asking again, what is the rationale for renaming? I agree that "display-manager" might be a slightly better name than "xdm", but that's more than outweighted by the trouble that the renaming would impose on users. Ulrich I could run these commands conditionally in postinst to make this an automatic upgrade for people who have 'xdm' currently installed and enabled in the default runlevel. But I really don't think that running these commands is that big an inconvenience.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote: > and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager': > rc-update del xdm default > rc-update add display-manager default So, no automatic upgrade path for users? I am asking again, what is the rationale for renaming? I agree that "display-manager" might be a slightly better name than "xdm", but that's more than outweighted by the trouble that the renaming would impose on users. Ulrich signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
Hi, I've attached the updated news item. It now depends on openrc and the wording has been improved to make it less ambiguous about it being optional. Aisha Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts Author: Aisha Tammy Posted: 2020-10-22 Revision: 2 News-Item-Format: 2.0 Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/openrc There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its requirements from various packages into an independent package: gui-libs/display-manager-init This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on Xorg server. To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the package in your @world set: emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM: DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm" and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager': rc-update del xdm default rc-update add display-manager default The changes are complete and on the next reboot, 'display-manager' will start your chosen DM. To switch to the new scripts without rebooting, run the following commands in a tty: rc-service xdm stop rc-service display-manager start
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/18/20 9:40 AM, Gordon Pettey wrote: > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 6:02 AM Aisha Tammy wrote: > > On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote: > > On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote: > >> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies > >> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're > >> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using > >> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to > separate > >> scripts for every DM? > >> > > This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already > works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use. > > > > -- juippis > > > > This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated > mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts. > > > Aside from that... > > Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to > conflict > with the other. > > > What conflict? Each package should have an init script with a matching name. > The only conflict might arise from > putting both in the same runlevel (assuming they don't just take the next > available VT). If a user wants to try out Making them take the next VT is the crucial point, as OpenRC doesn't keep track of which VTs are currently used. You can use openvt from sys-apps/kbd to check if a VT is free or not (stolen from slashbeast in the PR) openvt -c ${VT_N:-7} true >/dev/null 2>&1 This has race conditions when being used with openrc parallel starts as two DMs can check for VT 7 being free and then try to start on VT 7 in parallel, which is not cool. This means that we need to make sure to only have ONE of the DM scripts is enabled in the default runlevel (not a good idea to put them in other runlevels). Aisha > a different DM, it is simpler IMHO to > /etc/init.d/old-dm stop && /etc/init.d/new-dm start > than editing xdm.conf. If new-dm crashes the system for whatever reason, no > need to remember to edit xdm.conf > to restore your old choice; just reboot and old-dm which was in the default > runlevel is still your DM.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/18/20 8:22 AM, Mikle Kolyada wrote: > > 18.10.2020 01:05, Aisha Tammy пишет: >> Hi, >> I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes >> >> Thanks, >> Aisha >> >> --- >> >> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts >> Author: Aisha Tammy >> Posted: 2020-10-17 >> Revision: 1 >> News-Item-Format: 2.0 >> >> > > Systemd users have nothing to do with this news item, so please make it > openrc-dependent. > Sounds good.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote: > > > On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote: >> On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote: >>> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for >>> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on >>> Xorg server. > being dependent -> depending > >> >> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies >> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're >> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using >> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate >> scripts for every DM? >> > This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already works > this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use. > > -- juippis > This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts. IMO systemd is also very centralized, except that it hides it in its internals, as every services that wants to use a tty has to register with it. Nothing wrong with that, its a perfectly good method. I'm curious about why people are averse to a centralized script, it seems to be the simpler and cleaner option, atleast to me, presumably as different scripts for each DM *can* have different working mechanisms, and any fix applied to one of the DMs might have to be applied to others. Also the fact that the packages don't supply an OpenRC script on their own so every package would need an additional file from our end. Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to conflict with the other. Aisha
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 6:02 AM Aisha Tammy wrote: > On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote: > > On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote: > >> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies > >> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're > >> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using > >> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate > >> scripts for every DM? > >> > > This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already > works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use. > > > > -- juippis > > > > This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated > mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts. > Aside from that... Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to > conflict > with the other. > What conflict? Each package should have an init script with a matching name. The only conflict might arise from putting both in the same runlevel (assuming they don't just take the next available VT). If a user wants to try out a different DM, it is simpler IMHO to /etc/init.d/old-dm stop && /etc/init.d/new-dm start than editing xdm.conf. If new-dm crashes the system for whatever reason, no need to remember to edit xdm.conf to restore your old choice; just reboot and old-dm which was in the default runlevel is still your DM.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
18.10.2020 01:05, Aisha Tammy пишет: > Hi, > I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init > changes > > Thanks, > Aisha > > --- > > Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts > Author: Aisha Tammy > Posted: 2020-10-17 > Revision: 1 > News-Item-Format: 2.0 > > Systemd users have nothing to do with this news item, so please make it openrc-dependent.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, Michał Górny wrote: > Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies > requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're > requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using > the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate > scripts for every DM? Alternatively, don't rename the init script, in the first place. Ulrich signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote: > This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for > handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on > Xorg server. There wasn't any consensus about renaming xdm to display-manager. Ulrich
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote: On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote: This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on Xorg server. being dependent -> depending Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate scripts for every DM? This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use. -- juippis OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote: > Hi, > I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes > > Thanks, > Aisha > > --- > > Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts > Author: Aisha Tammy > Posted: 2020-10-17 > Revision: 1 > News-Item-Format: 2.0 > > There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its > requirements from various packages into an independent package: > > gui-libs/display-manager-init > > This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for > handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on > Xorg server. > > To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the > package in your @world set: > > emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init > > To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER > variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM: > > DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm" > Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies requiring all users to rewrite their configuration? While we're requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate scripts for every DM? -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/17/20 6:44 PM, Kent Fredric wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:41:38 +1300 > Kent Fredric wrote: > >> Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package? > > Scratch that, my brain is disabled and my eixing failed the first time > and I jumped because it was a category with no recollection of seeing > before. > Lolol, np. > Now I see there is one, I do still think "That's a bit weird", but > whatever, not adding a new category -> no issue. > > Many apologies. > > ( Though I still find the choice of category very odd ) > Hmmm, I thought of this package as just providing the startup scripts and not the actual display-manager themselves, so it feels more like a library (gui-libs) than an app (gui-apps). Am open to suggestions but this feels OK to me. Aisha signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/17/20 6:44 PM, Alexey Sokolov wrote: > сб, 17 окт. 2020 г. в 23:05, Aisha Tammy : >> >> Hi, >> I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes >> >> Thanks, >> Aisha >> >> --- >> >> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts >> Author: Aisha Tammy >> Posted: 2020-10-17 >> Revision: 1 >> News-Item-Format: 2.0 > > This will be shown even if no xdm was installed? Yes, that is true, but there is no xdm package per se (not referring to the display manager XDM, but the init script xdm). This is one of the reasons for the refactoring, because there is no single provider for xdm, parts of the scripts are present in sysvinit, xinit, xorg-server. And the overloading of terms for xdm init script and XDM display manager . This puts them together into one package, while renaming and clearing the confusion. A potential check could be for xorg-server, which should be OK, but I don't see the harm in being a bit more cautious and letting everyone read it. Display-If-Present: x11-base/xorg-server > >> >> There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its >> requirements from various packages into an independent package: >> >> gui-libs/display-manager-init >> >> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for >> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on >> Xorg server. >> >> To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the >> package in your @world set: >> >> emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init >> >> To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER >> variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM: >> >> DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm" >> >> To test the newly installed scripts, you can try to switch to >> 'display-manager' on the running computer. >> Run the following commands in a tty to test your current install: >> >> rc-service xdm stop >> rc-service display-manager start >> >> If the test succeeds, you can remove the old xdm startup script >> and add display-manager to the default runlevel: >> >> rc-update del xdm default >> rc-update add display-manager default >> >> Reboot your computer to perform a final test and check to see >> that your chosen display manager has started. > > What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing? > If you ignore this news item and upgrade your packages without installing display-manager-init, you will no longer have an 'xdm' init script and you will not get a gui on boot. (Don't ignore news items people :P) Aisha
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On 10/17/20 6:41 PM, Kent Fredric wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:05:40 -0400 > Aisha Tammy wrote: > >> gui-libs/display-manager-init > > Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package? > It's already a category, though a little less known one. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
> > What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing? > > > > If you ignore this news item and upgrade your packages without installing > display-manager-init, you will no longer have an 'xdm' init script and you > will > not get a gui on boot. > Then please state that clearly in the text. Now it looks like a request to test some new feature, with no particular benefit for the user. Especially as it does say "test"
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
сб, 17 окт. 2020 г. в 23:05, Aisha Tammy : > > Hi, > I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes > > Thanks, > Aisha > > --- > > Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts > Author: Aisha Tammy > Posted: 2020-10-17 > Revision: 1 > News-Item-Format: 2.0 This will be shown even if no xdm was installed? > > There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its > requirements from various packages into an independent package: > > gui-libs/display-manager-init > > This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for > handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on > Xorg server. > > To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the > package in your @world set: > > emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init > > To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER > variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM: > > DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm" > > To test the newly installed scripts, you can try to switch to > 'display-manager' on the running computer. > Run the following commands in a tty to test your current install: > > rc-service xdm stop > rc-service display-manager start > > If the test succeeds, you can remove the old xdm startup script > and add display-manager to the default runlevel: > > rc-update del xdm default > rc-update add display-manager default > > Reboot your computer to perform a final test and check to see > that your chosen display manager has started. What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing?
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:41:38 +1300 Kent Fredric wrote: > Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package? Scratch that, my brain is disabled and my eixing failed the first time and I jumped because it was a category with no recollection of seeing before. Now I see there is one, I do still think "That's a bit weird", but whatever, not adding a new category -> no issue. Many apologies. ( Though I still find the choice of category very odd ) pgpi6mrAJek5K.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init
On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:05:40 -0400 Aisha Tammy wrote: > gui-libs/display-manager-init Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package? pgp0al5IKutdA.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature