Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 11:19 -0500, Thomas Kirchner wrote: * On Nov 22 10:15, Chris Gianelloni (gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org) wrote: It isn't pretty much anymore. It *is* exactly the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're going to attempt to get the same result as a stage1 with a stage3 - (which won't be exactly the same, You're wrong. You can still change your virtuals, just like you can with a stage3. You can still change CFLAGS/USE flags. given the defaults of stage3 that we don't all agree with) - don't you have to download the huge stage3 tarball *and* all of the distfiles? With a stage1, you only need the distfiles. Seems like a big change, especially for those without fast connections. Honestly, you only need download what you've changed. If you have changed quite a lot, yes, it will be more to download. I'm against this change, personally. Stage1 has *always* been for advanced users. If someone screws up their own system (which is possible in any number of other ways, as well) then it's their fault. Gentoo isn't about babying users. It is about choice. And if changing that is the only way to reduce your workload, well... *sigh* Another Gentoo is about choice argument. Can I ask you something? Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? I see lots of places that say that Gentoo allows you to customize, but nowhere do I see anything that says that we are about choice. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 11:39:29AM -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote: Another Gentoo is about choice argument. Can I ask you something? Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? I see lots of places that say that Gentoo allows you to customize, but nowhere do I see anything that says that we are about choice. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2005.1/handbook-x86.xml?part=1 About the Gentoo Linux Installation Users not familiar with Gentoo do not always know that choice is what Gentoo is all about. And following that link: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2005.1/handbook-x86.xml?part=1chap=1 Welcome! First of all, welcome to Gentoo. You are about to enter the world of choices and performance. Gentoo is all about choices. When installing Gentoo, this is made clear to you several times -- you can choose how much you want to compile yourself, how to install Gentoo, what system logger you want, etc. Gentoo is a fast, modern metadistribution with a clean and flexible design. Gentoo is built around free software and doesn't hide from its users what is beneath the hood. Portage, the package maintenance system which Gentoo uses, is written in Python, meaning you can easily view and modify the source code. Gentoo's packaging system uses source code (although support for precompiled packages is included too) and configuring Gentoo happens through regular textfiles. In other words, openness everywhere. It is very important that you understand that choices are what makes Gentoo run. We try not to force you onto anything you don't like. If you feel like we do, please bugreport it. (Note that I'm not going to argue either way whether this is a good thing; I'm merely pointing out that the docs do say we're about choice.) pgpVhourpnf0y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 10:09 pm, Chris Gianelloni wrote: *sigh* Another Gentoo is about choice argument. Can I ask you something? Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? I see lots of places that say that Gentoo allows you to customize, but nowhere do I see anything that says that we are about choice. I am a really novice desktop end-user and am following gentoo-dev just for learning what all goes through the minds of the uber gentoo developers. I have no say in this discussion as it doesn't effect me and am certainly not qualified to get into an argument with someone like you but I have read your posts mentioning this Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? argument lots of time. Till now I also had a picture in my mind that Gentoo was actually about choice and when I saw that picture getting shattered by a Lead Developer, I went to look for the places that made me think about Gentoo in that way i.e. Gentoo is about choice. These are the few things I could find. 1) On the about page with picture of Larry The Cow: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml He discovered lots of up-to-date packages that could be auto-built using the optimizations settings and build-time functionality that he wanted, rather than what some distro creator thought would be best for him. All of the sudden, Larry the Cow was in control. And he liked it. ---rather than what some distro creator thought would be best for him. ^ that statement makes you think it is about choice. 2) The Philosophy: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. 3) Gentoo Social Contract: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml A Gentoo operating system should satisfy the self-hosting requirement. In other words, the operating system should be able to build itself from scratch using the aforementioned tools and metadata. If a product associated with an official Gentoo project does not satisfy these requirements, the product does not qualify as a Gentoo operating system. All these things imply that there should be a choice for a user to do what ever way he/she wants while building his/her system i.e. even from scratch. Since these documents just implied the Choice nature of Gentoo, I went ahead and did some googling to actually get the direct connection. Searching for gentoo about choice leads 653,000 results and just the first two results are enough to get the point across for a user. 1) From 1st Link: Gentoo Weekly Newsletter: March 28th, 2005 http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20050328-newsletter.xml Developer of the week talks Gentoo represents choice and freedom for every user to build their computing environment to their individual needs, by giving them the tools to do it. -- Marcus D. Hanwell (cryos) 2) From 2nd Link: Trusted Gentoo : by Daniel Black http://www.gentoo.org/news/20050202-trustedgentoo.xml Gentoo is about choice The last link should settle it for you? Can we now comfortably say that Gentoo is about choice? The other 652,998 links might reveal a few more places where we can get the choice idea from but I hope that all these links should be sufficient to give anyone this idea. Regards, Abhay pgpQdOWP8wINL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
Harald van Dijk wrote: (Note that I'm not going to argue either way whether this is a good thing; I'm merely pointing out that the docs do say we're about choice.) You still can choose between stage3 and stage3+GRP without having to do anything but following the handbook :) -- Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
The last link should settle it for you? Can we now comfortably say that Gentoo is about choice? The other 652,998 links might reveal a few more places where we can get the choice idea from but I hope that all these links should be sufficient to give anyone this idea. Ok, fine. Gentoo is about choice. So what about developers? Don't we also have a choice? Sometimes we have to choose what is best for ourselves (note, I'm not talking about anything selfish or malicious here). Sometimes we have to choose what is best for Gentoo. In most cases, we are even right, although you would never guess this from the amount of complaining that occurs anytime we make such a choice... -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Kirchner schrieb: | I'm against this change, personally. Stage1 has *always* been for | advanced users. If someone screws up their own system (which is possible | in any number of other ways, as well) then it's their fault. Gentoo | isn't about babying users. It is about choice. And if changing that is | the only way to reduce your workload, well... In which way do we take away your ability to choose by moving documentation from one place to another one? It's just the aim to not include this documentation into the handbook (which ends up on the installcds) and to move it out of the scope of ricers. Advanced won't need that documentation anyway, as they don't qualify as adcaneced if they do! (At least in my eyes) Danny - -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDg1/QaVNL8NrtU6IRApExAKCnhZf9k+PjJOpWTYlO+C4Np+csigCeO3tC Eh8xRxPL3AHyqRylAtTjvuc= =/oto -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jakub Moc schrieb: | 22.11.2005, 19:13:36, Danny van Dyk wrote: | | |Thomas Kirchner schrieb: | I'm against this change, personally. Stage1 has |*always* been for | advanced users. If someone screws up their own system |(which is possible | in any number of other ways, as well) then it's their |fault. Gentoo | isn't about babying users. It is about choice. And if |changing that is | the only way to reduce your workload, well... | | |In which way do we take away your ability to choose by moving |documentation from one place to another one? It's just the aim to not |include this documentation into the handbook (which ends up on the |installcds) and to move it out of the scope of ricers. | | | If you look at http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/faq.xml (How do I Install Gentoo | Using a Stage1 or Stage2 Tarball?) I'd not exactly say that the documentations | has been *moved*. Compare that with the original handbook. That's currently a stub. If i recall right, Swift mentioned on #-dev that he'd need to refurbish this. Swift: Right? Danny - -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDg2evaVNL8NrtU6IRAqH9AJ9JtN58oKu80O2QPLnbWezZbJte9wCdFKBG WDdFjRu2HBZF0tYswBp2v6g= =QcNK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 11:32 pm, Stephen P. Becker wrote: Ok, fine. Gentoo is about choice. So what about developers? Don't we also have a choice? Sometimes we have to choose what is best for ourselves (note, I'm not talking about anything selfish or malicious here). Sometimes we have to choose what is best for Gentoo. In most cases, we are even right, although you would never guess this from the amount of complaining that occurs anytime we make such a choice... As I said earlier I don't have any credentials/knowledge/expertise (or anything you might want to call it) that can enable me to argue with you guys. Also I am not effected by the removal of Stage 1 and 2 installation docs. I will not be effected even if Stage 1/2 tar balls are removed as well. I was simply responding to Chris Gianelloni's comment of Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? That is ALL. Period!!! Abhay pgpuSq3KVXxXg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 23:10 +0530, Abhay Kedia wrote: On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 10:09 pm, Chris Gianelloni wrote: *sigh* Another Gentoo is about choice argument. Can I ask you something? Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? I see lots of places that say that Gentoo allows you to customize, but nowhere do I see anything that says that we are about choice. I am a really novice desktop end-user and am following gentoo-dev just for learning what all goes through the minds of the uber gentoo developers. I have no say in this discussion as it doesn't effect me and am certainly not qualified to get into an argument with someone like you but I have read your posts mentioning this Where does it say that Gentoo is about choice? argument lots of time. You have just as much right to speak your mind as I. We aren't special because we're developers. We're all just Gentoo users like you. We just contribute our time to improve Gentoo. If you file bug reports or participate in discussions here, then you're doing the same. Till now I also had a picture in my mind that Gentoo was actually about choice and when I saw that picture getting shattered by a Lead Developer, I went to look for the places that made me think about Gentoo in that way i.e. Gentoo is about choice. These are the few things I could find. The problem with the Gentoo is about choice argument is that it is used to back up any argument where there's not really a good reason for making the changes *except* for choice. 1) On the about page with picture of Larry The Cow: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml He discovered lots of up-to-date packages that could be auto-built using the optimizations settings and build-time functionality that he wanted, rather than what some distro creator thought would be best for him. All of the sudden, Larry the Cow was in control. And he liked it. ---rather than what some distro creator thought would be best for him. ^ that statement makes you think it is about choice. It can imply that, but it does not state it. Also, remember that having the *ability* to enact change yourself to make things the way you want is not the same as developers being *forced* to do something simply so you have a choice. As I stated before, you're more than able to take a stage3 tarball + catalyst + the example catalyst spec files and build your own stage1 tarball. In fact, this is the exact same procedure that Release Engineering uses in building these tarballs to begin with. So the choice is still there. 2) The Philosophy: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. Again, you're still free to do what you chose using the tools we provide... ...or are you calling *me* a tool? ;P 3) Gentoo Social Contract: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml A Gentoo operating system should satisfy the self-hosting requirement. In other words, the operating system should be able to build itself from scratch using the aforementioned tools and metadata. If a product associated with an official Gentoo project does not satisfy these requirements, the product does not qualify as a Gentoo operating system. Removing stage1 instructions doesn't go against this in any way. All these things imply that there should be a choice for a user to do what ever way he/she wants while building his/her system i.e. even from scratch. Nowhere have I suggested a method of change that would remove this choice from the users. The problem is that people are confusing choice with developers doing it for me. Just because *I* don't build a stage1 tarball, or just because the instructions are not in the Handbook, does not mean that you cannot still perform a stage1 installation. All of the tools for you to do this are still there, you just have to take the time to use them. Since these documents just implied the Choice nature of Gentoo, I went ahead and did some googling to actually get the direct connection. Searching for gentoo about choice leads 653,000 results and just the first two results are enough to get the point across for a user. They implied it. They did not state it. However, it was pointed out to me that the Handbook, does indeed have the Gentoo is about choice mantra in it. I plan on filing a bug against the Handbook to have this changed to something a bit closer to fact, which I will explain a bit further below. 1) From 1st Link: Gentoo Weekly Newsletter: March 28th, 2005 http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20050328-newsletter.xml Developer of the week talks Gentoo represents choice and freedom for every user to build their computing environment to their individual needs, by giving them the tools to do it. -- Marcus D. Hanwell (cryos) Right. Giving them the tools. It doesn't say being forced to do something they think is a bad idea and to
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Wednesday 23 Nov 2005 12:29 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote: As I stated before, you're more than able to take a stage3 tarball + catalyst + the example catalyst spec files and build your own stage1 tarball. In fact, this is the exact same procedure that Release Engineering uses in building these tarballs to begin with. So the choice is still there. I agree with you totally and have no problems at all in having Stage 1/2 methods or even the tar balls officially removed from Gentoo but all these complaints by users (or slashdotters as beejay says) are arising because the whole thing has not been documented too well. The users just know one thing i.e. Stage 1 and 2 have been removed and hence the knee jerk reaction. They don't know that these methods have *not* been removed, just the way to get to the point has changed (no matter how worthless it is). I actually would like to reiterate what Henrik said in one of his posts If our users are explained why stage1/2 installs don't give any benefits over a stage3 install, I trust them to acknowledge this fact. Abhay pgpvm5EyIZbmJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On 11/22/05, R Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 16:26 +0100, Marc Hildebrand wrote: Chris Gianelloni wrote: [..] Now, on the topic of the tarballs. Give me one example of something that you can do with a stage1 or stage2 tarball that you cannot with a stage3 tarball. Answer: Download it in less than 10 minutes. I'd love to see you do the same with a stage1 tarball + all the distfiles you'll need to go from stage1 to stage3. What about someone on dialup who needs a rescue CD to boot into their system after they've trashed the MBR? 88MiB vs 14MiB is a big difference in this case. Erm, why would I need a stage 1 for a rescue cd? In case you're wondering, it's more than the size of a stage3 tarball, by quite a bit. The question of interest is: Will we keep changing things without a GLEP that should *never* be touched without one? Since when is this GLEP material? Are you kidding? Since it's a fundamentally significant and highly visible change in the workings of Gentoo. The three-stage build system is one of the distinguishing characteristics of Gentoo, up there with source-based, install from scratch, and highly customizable. Every review of Gentoo I've ever seen at least mentions it. It removes no functionality, it adds no functionality. It simply changes it. How is this GLEP materiel? For the record, I don't think it matters if stage 1 goes away. Make stage 3 the Official and Supported Way of installing Gentoo, but provide stage 1 as a minimal LiveCD/RescueCD option. Make a mention in the install documentation along the lines of It is also possible to do a full install of Gentoo using a minimal Rescue LiveCD and a network connection. This method is depreciated and should only be used if circumstances prevent you using the Universal LiveCD. Note that we do _not_ provide support for systems built using minimal installations, so you're on your own. (linkity to a new separate stage 1 doc page) --de. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
R Hill wrote: I think that a lot of people use stage 1 because they're under the impression that they have to in order to change their CHOST on default-linux from i386-pc-linux-gnu to i686-pc-linux-gnu. And unless something has changed recently, to get an NPTL glibc they _do_ have to make that change [1]. If it's made clear that there is absolutely no difference in the end btwn stage3 + emerge -e world and stage1, maybe people would be less enthusiastic about using it. --de. Well, I'm not expert for sure, quite a noobie really, but I did my install about 2 years ago. I did a stage 3 install and then did a emerge -ev world. I must admit though, I did actually read the manual several times before I started my install. I usually don't read the directions but hey, I didn't know crap about Gentoo, don't know much crap now either. :/ Some may need the option for a stage 1 but unless you are on one slow rig, emerge -ev world shortly after booting your new stable kernel shouldn't take to long then install everything else. Wouldn't that make everyone happy? Shouldn't that also give some devs some time to work on others things as well? Getting a sync past 50% with slowing to a crawl would be nice. Plenty of people complaining about that. Don't beat me to much OK. Be gentle. Dale :-) -- To err is human, I'm most certainly human. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
R Hill wrote: I think that a lot of people use stage 1 because they're under the impression that they have to in order to change their CHOST on default-linux from i386-pc-linux-gnu to i686-pc-linux-gnu. And unless something has changed recently, to get an NPTL glibc they _do_ have to make that change [1]. If it's made clear that there is absolutely no difference in the end btwn stage3 + emerge -e world and stage1, maybe people would be less enthusiastic about using it. if you are on x86, there is stage3 for pentium4 built with CFLAGS=-O2 -march=penitum4 CHOST=i686-pc-linux-gnu -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 11:36:01PM -0600, Dale wrote: R Hill wrote: Getting a sync past 50% with slowing to a crawl would be nice. Plenty of people complaining about that. Don't beat me to much OK. Be gentle. Really need to release a portage that contains http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferringb/blog/archives/2005-10.html#e2005-10-12T23_59_53.txt ... ~harring pgpIo0k8kZAQH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation
On Wednesday 23 Nov 2005 10:28 am, R Hill wrote: For the record, I don't think it matters if stage 1 goes away. Make stage 3 the Official and Supported Way of installing Gentoo, but provide stage 1 as a minimal LiveCD/RescueCD option. Make a mention in the install documentation along the lines of He has already said that if Gentoo is releasing something then they have a moral onus of supporting it. He doesn't want to release something officially and then say that it is not supported. Abhay pgpTl0X7BTrIy.pgp Description: PGP signature
