Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/03/2016 07:00 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Saturday, December 3, 2016 8:59:09 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:26:53 -0800
>>
>> Daniel Campbell  wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2016 10:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote:

 I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
 pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
 sense to keep upstream's naming.
>>>
>>> What is a pure dependency? Do we handle those differently than the
>>> garden-variety dependencies in other packages?
>>
>> It is a package that is rarely installed directly, and rather commonly
>> taken as a dependency of another package. For example, packages that
>> install no programs and just Perl/Python/... modules.
> 
> Keep in mind some will emerge libraries dependencies for their own projects 
> and development. They do not always have to be merged as a dependency of 
> another package.
> 
> It might be confusing to know when it is acceptable to use mixed case and not.
> 
I think Michał was talking strictly in the case of a library being
pulled in as a dependency, e.g. program A is depending on library B, but
library B is so specialized that it doesn't really get pulled in
manually. When emerging program A, library B is pure. When emerging
library B deliberately, it becomes the target package.

(If I have this wrong please correct me, Michał. Also forgive me if the
glyph for the last letter in your name is wrong.)

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 21:16:05 +0100
Ulrich Mueller  wrote:

> > On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Michał Górny wrote:  
> 
> > Thanks, Kent, I think this is the best way to put it so far.
> > Could you try to fit it into a devmanual patch?  
> 
> There is no consensus about such a change of policy.

Does that prohibit us from preparing a patch and encouraging a good
idea?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ulrich Mueller]

> On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Michał Górny wrote:

> Thanks, Kent, I think this is the best way to put it so far.
> Could you try to fit it into a devmanual patch?

There is no consensus about such a change of policy.

Ulrich


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[William Hubbs]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 08:09:31PM -0800, Nick Vinson wrote:
> 
> On 12/02/2016 10:28 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> > 
> >> The devmanual states:
> >> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> >> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> >> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> > 
> >> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> > 
> > 
> >> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> > 
> >> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> > 
> > No, because even for the most common packages it would be hard to
> > guess what the actual convention is. For example, is it GCC (used on
> > its web page and in documentation) or gcc (name of the command and
> > displayed by gcc --version)?
> > 
> > If we allow uppercase, then should we also allow two packages in the
> > tree whose names differ only in character case?
> 
> If Gentoo chose to perfectly match GNU's naming with GCC, then the
> ebuild should be GCC-.ebuild.

I'm thinking about it more from the development standpoint, so that we
don't need things like the MY_Pn, MY_P and S manipulation you see in
dev-python/configargparse.

William



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 04:50:49 +1300
Kent Fredric  wrote:

> On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 08:14:26 +0100
> Ulrich Mueller  wrote:
> 
> > The ebuild has to be written only once, while users will type the
> > package name many times.  
> 
> An ebuild will require maintaining 10x the number of times
> users need to specify the cat/pn of that package.
> 
> An ebuild will also need depending on quite frequently.
> 
> Its also obviously a question of "what would users expect the first time"
> 
> and that probably is somewhat based on "What scope of permissible characters 
> are used in primary atoms"
> 
> I suspect people expect "firefox" to just be called "firefox", because that's 
> what its called in /usr/bin/
> 
> I suspect people expect "gcc" to be called "gcc" because that's what its 
> called in /usr/bin/
> 
> I'd however be more understanding that Xorg be called Xorg 
> 
> However, when you talk about "ecosystems" like Perl/Python, the "primary 
> point of entry" 
> is not in /usr/bin/, its not "what will I type when I invoke the program".
> 
> Its "What will I type in code to use this"
> 
> And given that's case sensitive in Perl, it makes sense that people wanting 
> "Foo" would
> type "use Foo" and "emerge Foo" 
> 
> And I'd imagine similar reasons exist in python/ruby.
> 
> In short, my argument is not so much that /they should be named after what 
> they'll install/,
> but /named after how end users consume it/
> 
> That is: Whatever spelling we use, it should be consistent with the spelling 
> they use the most
> in a *non* gentoo context.

Thanks, Kent, I think this is the best way to put it so far. Could you
try to fit it into a devmanual patch?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 11:01:32 -0500
Mike Gilbert  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:48 AM, Robin H. Johnson  wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 01:04:17AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:  
> >> On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 09:49:59PM -0600, William Hubbs wrote  
> >> >
> >> > So, should we clean up / rename packages that do not follow this as we
> >> > find them, like my ConfigArgParse example?  
> >>
> >> find /usr/portage -name *.ebuild | grep [A-Z] | sed "s/-[0-9].*//" | sort 
> >> -u > upper.txt  
> >
> > There's a double-packaged case that stands out:
> > dev-python/shapely
> > sci-libs/Shapely
> > (Both use the same pypi source)  
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> It looks like sci-libs/Shapely has been around longer, so I have
> converted reverse deps on dev-python/shapely over to it and masked the
> latter.

There is a bug open for 3 weeks now [1]. I'm surprised that nobody
fixed it before. Could you update it, please?

[1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/599306

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:48 AM, Robin H. Johnson  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 01:04:17AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 09:49:59PM -0600, William Hubbs wrote
>> >
>> > So, should we clean up / rename packages that do not follow this as we
>> > find them, like my ConfigArgParse example?
>>
>> find /usr/portage -name *.ebuild | grep [A-Z] | sed "s/-[0-9].*//" | sort -u 
>> > upper.txt
>
> There's a double-packaged case that stands out:
> dev-python/shapely
> sci-libs/Shapely
> (Both use the same pypi source)

Thanks for pointing that out.

It looks like sci-libs/Shapely has been around longer, so I have
converted reverse deps on dev-python/shapely over to it and masked the
latter.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Kent Fredric]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 08:14:26 +0100
Ulrich Mueller  wrote:

> The ebuild has to be written only once, while users will type the
> package name many times.

An ebuild will require maintaining 10x the number of times
users need to specify the cat/pn of that package.

An ebuild will also need depending on quite frequently.

Its also obviously a question of "what would users expect the first time"

and that probably is somewhat based on "What scope of permissible characters 
are used in primary atoms"

I suspect people expect "firefox" to just be called "firefox", because that's 
what its called in /usr/bin/

I suspect people expect "gcc" to be called "gcc" because that's what its called 
in /usr/bin/

I'd however be more understanding that Xorg be called Xorg 

However, when you talk about "ecosystems" like Perl/Python, the "primary point 
of entry" 
is not in /usr/bin/, its not "what will I type when I invoke the program".

Its "What will I type in code to use this"

And given that's case sensitive in Perl, it makes sense that people wanting 
"Foo" would
type "use Foo" and "emerge Foo" 

And I'd imagine similar reasons exist in python/ruby.

In short, my argument is not so much that /they should be named after what 
they'll install/,
but /named after how end users consume it/

That is: Whatever spelling we use, it should be consistent with the spelling 
they use the most
in a *non* gentoo context.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Ben Kohler  wrote:
>>
>> Keep in mind some will emerge libraries dependencies for their own
>> projects
>> and development. They do not always have to be merged as a dependency of
>> another package.
>>
>> It might be confusing to know when it is acceptable to use mixed case and
>> not.
>>
>> --
>> William L. Thomson Jr.
>
> It's really not confusing, you're making up issues just to hear yourself
> talk.

Let's not start this here. I agree that there is no clear cut rule
here, and that could be confusing.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ben Kohler]

>
>
> Keep in mind some will emerge libraries dependencies for their own projects
> and development. They do not always have to be merged as a dependency of
> another package.
>
> It might be confusing to know when it is acceptable to use mixed case and
> not.
>
> --
> William L. Thomson Jr.
>
It's really not confusing, you're making up issues just to hear yourself
talk.

-Ben

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 8:59:09 AM EST Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:26:53 -0800
> 
> Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> > On 12/02/2016 10:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> > > pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> > > sense to keep upstream's naming.
> > 
> > What is a pure dependency? Do we handle those differently than the
> > garden-variety dependencies in other packages?
> 
> It is a package that is rarely installed directly, and rather commonly
> taken as a dependency of another package. For example, packages that
> install no programs and just Perl/Python/... modules.

Keep in mind some will emerge libraries dependencies for their own projects 
and development. They do not always have to be merged as a dependency of 
another package.

It might be confusing to know when it is acceptable to use mixed case and not.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 00:12:53 -0800
Daniel Campbell  wrote:

> On 12/02/2016 11:55 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:21:34 -0800
> > Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> >   
> >> On 12/02/2016 10:45 AM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:  
> >>> On 02/12/16 01:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>  On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
>  Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
> >  wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> >> Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
> >>> The devmanual states:
> >>>
> >>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
> >>> letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
> >>> Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
> >>> valid.
> >>>
> >>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> >>>
> >>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
> >>
> >> What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
> >
> > I have no idea. What's your point?
> 
>  That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
>  no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
>  FireFox.
> 
> >>>
> >>> It's also more convenient at the consone to just type everything
> >>> lowercase.  I expect that's the primary reason it's discouraged.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >> That seems the most likely to me as well.
> >>
> >> We could make a more "user friendly" feature by setting up bash
> >> completion for package names, but that sounds a) daunting, b)
> >> error-prone, and c) probably not worth the time spent writing the
> >> script(s) necessary.  
> > 
> > There is a bash completion script for that for a long time now.
> > However, it no longer works correctly with new bash-completion versions
> > and it seems that nobody cares enough to fix it.
> >   
> Oh, that's good to know. I didn't find anything relevant with
> 'bash-completion' in its name in the tree. Where should I look for this
> script?

gentoo-bashcomp

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/02/2016 11:55 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:21:34 -0800
> Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/02/2016 10:45 AM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
>>> On 02/12/16 01:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:  
 On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
 Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
>  wrote:  
>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
>> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>>> The devmanual states:
>>>
>>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
>>> letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
>>> Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
>>> valid.
>>>
>>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
>>
>> What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?  
>
> I have no idea. What's your point?  

 That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
 no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
 FireFox.
  
>>>
>>> It's also more convenient at the consone to just type everything
>>> lowercase.  I expect that's the primary reason it's discouraged.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>> That seems the most likely to me as well.
>>
>> We could make a more "user friendly" feature by setting up bash
>> completion for package names, but that sounds a) daunting, b)
>> error-prone, and c) probably not worth the time spent writing the
>> script(s) necessary.
> 
> There is a bash completion script for that for a long time now.
> However, it no longer works correctly with new bash-completion versions
> and it seems that nobody cares enough to fix it.
> 
Oh, that's good to know. I didn't find anything relevant with
'bash-completion' in its name in the tree. Where should I look for this
script?

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/02/2016 11:59 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:26:53 -0800
> Daniel Campbell  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/02/2016 10:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
>>> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>>>   
 The devmanual states:

 The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
 the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
 characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.

 https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html


 Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?

 Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
>>>
>>> I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
>>> pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
>>> sense to keep upstream's naming.
>>>   
>> What is a pure dependency? Do we handle those differently than the
>> garden-variety dependencies in other packages?
> 
> It is a package that is rarely installed directly, and rather commonly
> taken as a dependency of another package. For example, packages that
> install no programs and just Perl/Python/... modules.
> 
Ah, thanks for explaining that. Makes a lot more sense.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:26:53 -0800
Daniel Campbell  wrote:

> On 12/02/2016 10:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> >   
> >> The devmanual states:
> >>
> >> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> >> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> >> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> >>
> >> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
> > 
> > I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> > pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> > sense to keep upstream's naming.
> >   
> What is a pure dependency? Do we handle those differently than the
> garden-variety dependencies in other packages?

It is a package that is rarely installed directly, and rather commonly
taken as a dependency of another package. For example, packages that
install no programs and just Perl/Python/... modules.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:21:34 -0800
Daniel Campbell  wrote:

> On 12/02/2016 10:45 AM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> > On 02/12/16 01:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:  
> >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
> >> Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
> >>>  wrote:  
>  On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
>  Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> > The devmanual states:
> >
> > The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
> > letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
> > Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
> > valid.
> >
> > https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> >
> >
> > Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> >
> > Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> 
>  What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?  
> >>>
> >>> I have no idea. What's your point?  
> >>
> >> That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
> >> no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
> >> FireFox.
> >>  
> > 
> > It's also more convenient at the consone to just type everything
> > lowercase.  I expect that's the primary reason it's discouraged.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> That seems the most likely to me as well.
> 
> We could make a more "user friendly" feature by setting up bash
> completion for package names, but that sounds a) daunting, b)
> error-prone, and c) probably not worth the time spent writing the
> script(s) necessary.

There is a bash completion script for that for a long time now.
However, it no longer works correctly with new bash-completion versions
and it seems that nobody cares enough to fix it.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Vadim A. Misbakh-Soloviov]

> We could make a more "user friendly" feature by setting up bash
> completion for package names, but that sounds a) daunting, b)
> error-prone, and c) probably not worth the time spent writing the
> script(s) necessary.

By the way, the ones for zsh is already done and working (even for sets).

Although, talking about main topic of the thread, I think that emerge lacks 
"autocontinue" support in cases, where there is only single variant of 
misspelled suggestion more, that requirement to name all packages lowercase :)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/02/2016 10:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> 
>> The devmanual states:
>>
>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
>> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
>> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
>>
>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>>
>>
>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>>
>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> 
> I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> sense to keep upstream's naming.
> 
What is a pure dependency? Do we handle those differently than the
garden-variety dependencies in other packages?

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/02/2016 08:09 PM, Nick Vinson wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> Personally, I've disliked that differentiation. Most people don't pay
> close enough attention to such things.  For example, how many people
> think iOS and IOS are the same thing?
> 
> -Nicholas Vinson

Anyone familiar with Wii homebrew knows they're different, but I see
your point. :)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Daniel Campbell]

On 12/02/2016 10:45 AM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 02/12/16 01:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
>> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
>>>  wrote:
 On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
 Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
> The devmanual states:
>
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
> letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
> Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
> valid.
>
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>
>
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  

 What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
>>>
>>> I have no idea. What's your point?
>>
>> That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
>> no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
>> FireFox.
>>
> 
> It's also more convenient at the consone to just type everything
> lowercase.  I expect that's the primary reason it's discouraged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
That seems the most likely to me as well.

We could make a more "user friendly" feature by setting up bash
completion for package names, but that sounds a) daunting, b)
error-prone, and c) probably not worth the time spent writing the
script(s) necessary.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Robin H. Johnson]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 01:04:17AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 09:49:59PM -0600, William Hubbs wrote
> > 
> > So, should we clean up / rename packages that do not follow this as we
> > find them, like my ConfigArgParse example?
> 
> find /usr/portage -name *.ebuild | grep [A-Z] | sed "s/-[0-9].*//" | sort -u 
> > upper.txt

There's a double-packaged case that stands out:
dev-python/shapely
sci-libs/Shapely
(Both use the same pypi source)

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robb...@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Walter Dnes]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 09:49:59PM -0600, William Hubbs wrote
> 
> So, should we clean up / rename packages that do not follow this as we
> find them, like my ConfigArgParse example?

find /usr/portage -name *.ebuild | grep [A-Z] | sed "s/-[0-9].*//" | sort -u > 
upper.txt

...gives 1814 *UNIQUE* packages, usually vith multiple ebuild versions
for each package.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Nick Vinson]

On 12/02/2016 10:28 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> The devmanual states:
>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
>> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
>> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> 
>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> 
> 
>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> 
>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> 
> No, because even for the most common packages it would be hard to
> guess what the actual convention is. For example, is it GCC (used on
> its web page and in documentation) or gcc (name of the command and
> displayed by gcc --version)?
> 
> If we allow uppercase, then should we also allow two packages in the
> tree whose names differ only in character case?

If Gentoo chose to perfectly match GNU's naming with GCC, then the
ebuild should be GCC-.ebuild.

The reason is simple.  GNU says GCC refers to the GNU Compiler
Collection, and gcc refers to the GNU C compiler.

Personally, I've disliked that differentiation. Most people don't pay
close enough attention to such things.  For example, how many people
think iOS and IOS are the same thing?

-Nicholas Vinson

> 
> Ulrich
> 



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[William Hubbs]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 04:13:48PM -0500, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> >
> >> The devmanual states:
> >>
> >> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> >> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> >> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> >>
> >> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> >
> > I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> > pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> > sense to keep upstream's naming.
> >
> 
> This seems like a reasonable approach. Thanks.

So, should we clean up / rename packages that do not follow this as we
find them, like my ConfigArgParse example?

William


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>
>> The devmanual states:
>>
>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
>> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
>> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
>>
>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>>
>>
>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>>
>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
>
> I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> sense to keep upstream's naming.
>

This seems like a reasonable approach. Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:38:19 -0600
William Hubbs  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:47:01PM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> >   
> > > The devmanual states:
> > > 
> > > The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> > > the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> > > characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> > > 
> > > https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> > > 
> > > Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
> > 
> > I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> > pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> > sense to keep upstream's naming.  
> 
> I'm not advocating renaming this, but I found an example of this when
> looking to package something:
> 
> dev-python/configargparse is called ConfigArgParse upstream.
> If we had named it dev-python/ConfigArgParse, we wouldn't need to set
> MY_PN, MY_P or S in our ebuild, and I wouldn't have had to check the
> package to see if it was the same as the package I need to depend on.

I should also add a statistical point that I've already seen 2 or 3
times Gentoo developers committing duplicate packages (i.e. missing
a package already there, under a different name/category).

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Brian Dolbec]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:38:19 -0600
William Hubbs  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:47:01PM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> >   
> > > The devmanual states:
> > > 
> > > The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
> > > letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus
> > > characters. Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but
> > > technically valid.
> > > 
> > > https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> > > 
> > > Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
> > 
> > I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages.
> > For pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it
> > makes sense to keep upstream's naming.  
> 
> I'm not advocating renaming this, but I found an example of this when
> looking to package something:
> 
> dev-python/configargparse is called ConfigArgParse upstream.
> If we had named it dev-python/ConfigArgParse, we wouldn't need to set
> MY_PN, MY_P or S in our ebuild, and I wouldn't have had to check the
> package to see if it was the same as the package I need to depend on.
> 
> William
> 

It gets worse than that.  I recently added several pkg to the tree that
had slightly different names for the github repo than they publishedin pypi. 
I in turn ended up naming it slightly different to fit our
category/pkg system.  So, the end result is not one common name, but
three.  For some, I tried to stick with the github repo name, despite
getting the tarball from pypi due to the inconsistent github sha's.

-- 
Brian Dolbec 



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[William Hubbs]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:47:01PM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> > The devmanual states:
> > 
> > The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> > the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> > characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> > 
> > https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> > 
> > 
> > Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> > 
> > Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> 
> I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
> pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
> sense to keep upstream's naming.

I'm not advocating renaming this, but I found an example of this when
looking to package something:

dev-python/configargparse is called ConfigArgParse upstream.
If we had named it dev-python/ConfigArgParse, we wouldn't need to set
MY_PN, MY_P or S in our ebuild, and I wouldn't have had to check the
package to see if it was the same as the package I need to depend on.

William



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Michał Górny]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
Mike Gilbert  wrote:

> The devmanual states:
> 
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> 
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> 
> 
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?

I'd say keeping things lowercase makes sense for end user packages. For
pure dependencies with consistent conventions (e.g. perl), it makes
sense to keep upstream's naming.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ian Stakenvicius]

On 02/12/16 01:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
>>  wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
>>> Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
 The devmanual states:

 The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
 letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
 Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
 valid.

 https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html


 Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?

 Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
>>>
>>> What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
>>
>> I have no idea. What's your point?
> 
> That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
> no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
> FireFox.
> 

It's also more convenient at the consone to just type everything
lowercase.  I expect that's the primary reason it's discouraged.






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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
 wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
>>  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
>> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>> >> The devmanual states:
>> >>
>> >> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
>> >> letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
>> >> Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
>> >> valid.
>> >>
>> >> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>> >>
>> >> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
>> >
>> > What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
>>
>> I have no idea. What's your point?
>
> That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
> no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
> FireFox.

A valid point, thank you for clarifying.

I will note that portage's spelling suggestion feature comes in handy here.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Ulrich Mueller  wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016, Mike Gilbert wrote:
>
>> The devmanual states:
>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
>> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
>> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
>
>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>
>
>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>
>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
>
> No, because even for the most common packages it would be hard to
> guess what the actual convention is. For example, is it GCC (used on
> its web page and in documentation) or gcc (name of the command and
> displayed by gcc --version)?

As a developer I would tend to match the tarball naming to minimize
the amount of customization needed in SRC_URI and avoid having to
redefine S.

> If we allow uppercase, then should we also allow two packages in the
> tree whose names differ only in character case?

Do we prohibit this currently?

Anyway, this seems like a pretty unlikely thing to have happen.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ulrich Mueller]

> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016, Mike Gilbert wrote:

> The devmanual states:
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.

> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html


> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?

> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?

No, because even for the most common packages it would be hard to
guess what the actual convention is. For example, is it GCC (used on
its web page and in documentation) or gcc (name of the command and
displayed by gcc --version)?

If we allow uppercase, then should we also allow two packages in the
tree whose names differ only in character case?

Ulrich


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert  wrote:  
> >> The devmanual states:
> >>
> >> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented
> >> letters, the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters.
> >> Uppercase characters are strongly discouraged, but technically
> >> valid.
> >>
> >> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?  
> >
> > What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
> 
> I have no idea. What's your point?

That naming conventions are generally complicated and a mess, and that
no-one wants to have to remember whether it's firefox, Firefox, or
FireFox.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mike Gilbert]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
 wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> Mike Gilbert  wrote:
>> The devmanual states:
>>
>> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
>> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
>> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
>>
>> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>>
>>
>> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>>
>> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
>
> What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
>

I have no idea. What's your point?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, R, 02.12.2016 kell 13:02, kirjutas Mike Gilbert:
> The devmanual states:
> 
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> 
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> 
> 
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?

It's much easier to just write all in lowercase for emerge, because it
is case sensitive and won't directly work (only hopefully show how it's
capitalized in the suggestions it prints if no direct match is found).
So usually lowercase means there's no guessing which happens to be
upper case to feed to emerge.
Less important for stuff people usually don't install, but are usually
only pulled in as a dependency of something.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
Mike Gilbert  wrote:
> The devmanual states:
> 
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> 
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> 
> 
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?

What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Uppercase characters in package names

[Brian Dolbec]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
Mike Gilbert  wrote:

> The devmanual states:
> 
> The name section should contain only lowercase non-accented letters,
> the digits 0-9, hyphens, underscores and plus characters. Uppercase
> characters are strongly discouraged, but technically valid.
> 
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
> 
> 
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
> 

I think so.

In at least one of the pkgs I created, I used mixed case to prevent
conflicts with other existing projects that google, pypi, etc.
searching returned results for.  But still have the name represent what
it did.

-- 
Brian Dolbec