Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE slow / console-kit-daemon POLKIT_IS_AUTHORITY failed

2014-01-17 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 06:56:20 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote:

 Right, only GDM (the display manager for GNOME) has dropped ConsoleKit
 support so far, that I know, in versions 3.8 and later
 So other than GNOME, ConsoleKit is still a go -- thus, compatible with
 OpenRC based system

I tried USE=-consolekit but it does not help.
 
 For KDE it might be something else than dbus-glib that needs a
 recompile, I'd imagine something like kdelibs or polkit-kde-agent, or
 both It could be something else too,

This problem has been there for a couple of years, it's reasonable to
assume that all KDE components have been recompiled several times in that
period. In fact, both of those were rebuilt by emerge -e dbus dbus-glib.

 but setting the suid bit on
 dbus-daemon-launch-helper is stupidest idea ever, that *really* allows
 anyone to gain root

Just to be clear, the SUID bit is set by default, I set the other execute
bit (o+x). The file already has group execute permissions, but adding my
user to the messagebus group makes no difference

 However if you run a machine with single user and no open ports on the
 machine whatsoever, the attack vector is propably very small, but I
 still wouldn't do it

The alternative is to stop using KDE, since none of the proposed
solutions, nor anything else I've tried, make any difference.

Edit: Dropping KDE may not make much difference, I still get these
messages when booting without X.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Why is there an expiration date on sour cream?


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Re: [gentoo-user] Anyone using open-vm-tools w/ESXi?

2014-01-17 Thread Tanstaafl

On 2014-01-16 4:35 PM, Jarry mr.ja...@gmail.com wrote:

On 16-Jan-14 22:17, Daniel Frey wrote:


Yes, the guest shutdown seems to still be working. I've tested both
manual (i.e. asking for a guest shutdown) and it works, and I've set up
my APC ups to shutdown the host and all VMs, again all working. If
you're interested in the howtos for the APC shutdown I think I have a
bookmark around somewhere.


BTW if all you want is safe shutdown, it can be done even without
vm-tools (which I personally do not like at all). In vSphere-client
I have suspend instead of shutdown (current state with memory
snapshot is saved), from ESXi you'd have to play a little with
/sbin/shutdown.sh script (i.e. with ssh/keys to log into all VM
and shut them down),


No desire to use this - my only concern is safe shutdown of gentoo 
guests (other VMs are Windows Servers that can natively be safely shut 
down).



and for power-interruption you can use NUT (which I find better than
apcupsd or PowerChute, because there is native NUT-client for
ESXi)...


Excellent. Is there any kind of docs on getting this working on both the 
host and the gentoo VMs?



apart from apcupsd you can use NUT (which I find better, there is
native ESXi-client).


I'm VERY interested in this option, Jarry...

One major reason is open-vm-tools requires modules to be enabled in the 
kernel, and .


But... does NUT require modules? Or can I just compile in whatever I 
need? I generally have always run my servers without modules enabled (I 
know that open-vm-tools requires modules to be enabled), for security 
purposes (one less thing to worry about).


I know that NUT has full support for my UPS's (Powerware 9125's), so I'm 
hoping modules are not required. Even if they are, I'd still rather use 
NUT than the open-vm-tools.


I would appreciate any doc pointers, or other additional information, if 
you are so inclined.


Thanks!!



Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE slow / console-kit-daemon POLKIT_IS_AUTHORITY failed

2014-01-17 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 11:11:06 +, Neil Bothwick wrote:

 Edit: Dropping KDE may not make much difference, I still get these
 messages when booting without X.

This got me wondering. If I get the messages when booting to a console
login prompt, it can't be anything to do with X or my user. The file is
group owned by messagebus and checking /etc/passwd and /etc/group
revealed inconsistencies. So I removed the messagebus entries from both
file and ran emerge -1 --noconfmem dbus dbus-glib and rebooted.

So far, no more of those messages. Thanks to Helmut for raising the topic
again and thanks to Samuli for giving me the kick up the jacksie I needed
to search for a proper solution to replace the ugly hack.

I'm hours behind in my work now, but I am happy(er) :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

C:\DOS\SYSTEM\OS2\UTILITIES\DOCS\HELP\WHERE\THE\F$#%\AM\I???


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[gentoo-user] re: setting up binhost

2014-01-17 Thread Alexander Kapshuk
I would like to set up one of my Gentoo systems as a binary host to
build and distribute packages that normally take longer to compile, like
libreoffice, firefox and thuderbird, to another Gentoo system of mine
with less RAM.

I've been following the instructions found here,
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Binary_package_guide.

What I've done so far on the binhost is:
(1). I've installed lighttpd and set 'server.document-root' to PKGDIR in
'/etc/lighttpd/lighttpd.conf'.
grep portage/packages /etc/lighttpd/lighttpd.conf
server.document-root = /usr/portage/packages
(2). I've built a libreoffice package using: 'quickpkg
app-office/libreoffice'.
ls /usr/portage/packages/
Packages  app-office
(3). As I attempted to access http://127.0.0.1/Packages, I got a 403
HTTP error returned. I guess that's because of the access permissions
for PKGDIR.
ls -ld /usr/portage/packages/
drwx-- 3 root root 4096 Jan 16 18:38 /usr/portage/packages/

If I understand it correctly, I have to decide on which protocol to use,
ftp, http, or ssh. Which one do folk here prefer, or would recommend?
The wiki article suggests setting up a binpkguser and adding a
client-root.id.rsa.pub to the binpkguser's authorized_keys, right? Does
that mean that a dedicated user has to be set up, instead of using my
current user account on the binhost?
|root # ||useradd -m -r -G portage -s /bin/bash binpkguser
root # ||echo clientA-root.id_rsa.pub 
/home/binpkguser/.ssh/authorized_keys|

On the client system, all I have to do is set up PORTAGE_BINHOST in
'/etc/portage.make.conf' and emerge the binary packages desired. Is that
right?

Any other advise, and/or suggestions would be much appreciated.



Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Stroller

On 16 Jan 2014, at 06:13 pm, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 …  Handbrake is almost
 permanently keyworded, I can't recall a time when a version was ever
 marked stable. This is unrelated to code quality, it's likely to be
 simply manpower 

I thought Handbrake was masked because upstream have poor packaging practices.

The source for Handbrake (I think) contains the source of loads of other libs 
(which you might already have installed on your system), effectively 
snapshotted and hard-linked to. I.E., it's a mess.

Stroller.




Re: [gentoo-user] Anyone using open-vm-tools w/ESXi?

2014-01-17 Thread Daniel Frey
On 01/17/2014 05:10 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
 
 One major reason is open-vm-tools requires modules to be enabled in the
 kernel, and .
 
 But... does NUT require modules? Or can I just compile in whatever I
 need? I generally have always run my servers without modules enabled (I
 know that open-vm-tools requires modules to be enabled), for security
 purposes (one less thing to worry about).
 

open-vm-tools also requires fuse, FYI. VMWare does have a lot of kernel
options in 3.10.25, which is what I upgraded the virtual machines to.
The only module that wasn't in the kernel was vmblock.

Dan




Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Stroller

On 16 Jan 2014, at 12:19 pm, Gevisz gev...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have to watch a lot of dav video files and possibly convert
 them to a more common video format like avi or mp4.
 ...
 P.S. My vlc does not understands this format.

Have you tried viewing them in mplayer?

IMO ffmpeg or mplayer are the correct tools for conversion - my instinct says 
that Handbrake is not.

In another comment you report some error messages. I think your video files are 
recordings created by a handheld video camera - it's possible there are bugs in 
the video it creates.

At least if you use ffmpeg you'll be aware of these warnings - if the converted 
video plays, then fine, but at least you have the opportunity to tweak the 
settings and reduce the errors to the minimum. I think a GUI app like Handbrake 
will only hide the errors from you.

Stroller.




Re: [gentoo-user] auvisio white star II

2014-01-17 Thread Stroller

On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:13 pm, Silvio Siefke siefke_lis...@web.de wrote:
 ...
 It run now, after i load other Firmware which linked in Ubuntu Forum. 
 The Firmware from portage for dvb has some probs with download files. 
 Should write as bug report or to package maintainer? 

Personally, when I find bugs like this, I try to find where the files 
originate, and file the bug upstream.

This reduces the Gentoo devs' workload, and in my experience the problem gets 
fixed in a more timely manner.

Stroller.
 


Re: [gentoo-user] Re: updating old box: segfaults with python

2014-01-17 Thread Daniel Frey
On 01/16/2014 08:07 PM, lovely2 wrote:
 I doubt this is a memory problem. I've just had the same problem with
 glibc-2.17 and python. I manually went back to glibc-2.16 and everything is
 fine again. I then tried re-emerging all the python versions with glibc-2.16
 installed and then re-emerged glibc-2.17 and had the same problem.
 
 After running strace on the python2.7. My best guess is that it is a kernel
  glibc-2.17 incompatiblity. The segfault happens near a mprotect
 operation, very early on.
 
 vault ~ # strace python
 -- snip -- 
 mmap2(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) =
 0xb7462000
 set_thread_area({entry_number:-1 - 6, base_addr:0xb74626c0, limit:1048575,
 seg_32bit:1, contents:0, read_exec_only:0, limit_in_pages:1,
 seg_not_present:0, useable:1}) = 0
 mprotect(0xb7658000, 8192, PROT_READ)   = 0
 --- SIGSEGV (Segmentation fault) @ 0 (0) ---
 +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++
 Segmentation fault
 
 vault ~ # uname -a
 Linux vault 2.6.31-gentoo-r10 #1 SMP Sun Mar 7 14:35:15 EST 2010 i686
 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8400 @ 2.66GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
 
 I'm upgrading to the latest gentoo-sources. Only thing i'm worried about is
 rebooting but all in the life of a gentoo user.

That could very well be (kernel issue with glibc-2.17.) I just upgraded
some 3 year old gentoo VMs and managed to get everything installed. The
kernel was the last thing I did have to upgrade, but I was on
gentoo-sources-2.6.32 and had no segfault problems.

From memory, I had to upgrade things in this order:
-run emerge --sync
-gcc (then switch to new version)
-emerge libtool, binutils, linux-headers, glibc (glib as a dependency
had to be masked to build, may have to solve some other blocks like a
fallocate64 error, i think i had to use `ac_cv_func_fallocate=no emerge
bintuils` so libtool would build?)
-rebuild gcc (advise from the gcc package - rebuild after glibc update)
-upgrade baselayout and openrc (inc. udev, module-init-tool-kmod, etc)
-perl (then run perl-cleaner)
-python (then remove all stale versions of 3.x and 2.x, switch active to
2.7)
-python-updater
-upgrade portage, portage-utils
-unmask things I'd individually masked and try to solve blocks emerging
world
-eventually world would run, make sure everything built
-run emerge-pvuDNe to make sure nothing was missed (something always is)
then upgrade those packages
-run emerge --depclean
-run emerge @preserved-rebuild
-run python-update  perl-cleaner
-run revdep-rebuild
-build  install new kernel (in my case 3.10.25)
-reboot

Damn, it works and it's up to date. Now I wish I could say that only
took an hour, but on the first machine it took me almost 10 hours
because I was almost always trying to work around blocks. The very last
one I got down to 7 hours as I knew exactly what I had to do.

The problem is it doesn't look like there's still an old 2.6 kernel in
the tree you can upgrade to so it might be difficult:

$ eshowkw gentoo-sources
Keywords for sys-kernel/gentoo-sources:
  | | u   |
  | a a   a   p s   | n   |
  | l m   r h i m m   p s   p   | u s | r
  | p d a m p a 6 i p c 3   a x | s l | e
  | h 6 r 6 p 6 8 p p 6 9 s r 8 | e o | p
  | a 4 m 4 a 4 k s c 4 0 h c 6 | d t | o
--+-+-+---
   3.0.101| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.0.101   | gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.2.54| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.2.54| gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.4.76| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.4.76| gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.4.77| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.4.77| gentoo
--+-+-+---
  3.4.| o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | o 3.4.  | gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.9.11-r1 | o ~ ~ o o ~ o o o o o o o ~ | o 3.9.11-r1 | gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.10.7| + + + o + + o ~ + + + + + + | o 3.10.7| gentoo
--+-+-+---
3.10.7-r1 | + + + o + + o ~ + + + + + + | o 3.10.7-r1 | gentoo
--+-+-+---
[I]3.10.17| ~ + ~ o + ~ o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ + | o 3.10.17   | gentoo
--+-+-+---
   3.10.25| ~ + + o + + o ~ + + ~ ~ ~ + | o 3.10.25   | gentoo
--+-+-+---
   3.10.26| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.10.26   | gentoo
--+-+-+---
   3.10.27| ~ ~ ~ o ~ ~ o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | o 3.10.27   | gentoo

Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Alan McKinnon
On 17/01/2014 18:56, Stroller wrote:
 
 On 16 Jan 2014, at 06:13 pm, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 …  Handbrake is almost
 permanently keyworded, I can't recall a time when a version was ever
 marked stable. This is unrelated to code quality, it's likely to be
 simply manpower 
 
 I thought Handbrake was masked because upstream have poor packaging practices.
 
 The source for Handbrake (I think) contains the source of loads of other libs 
 (which you might already have installed on your system), effectively 
 snapshotted and hard-linked to. I.E., it's a mess.
 
 Stroller.
 
 
 
 


I think you might be right. Now that you mention it, handbrake sources
come with a humongous number of bundled libs. Makes chromium and
openoffice look like a walk in the park.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com




Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Dale
Alan McKinnon wrote:
 On 17/01/2014 18:56, Stroller wrote:
 On 16 Jan 2014, at 06:13 pm, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 …  Handbrake is almost
 permanently keyworded, I can't recall a time when a version was ever
 marked stable. This is unrelated to code quality, it's likely to be
 simply manpower 
 I thought Handbrake was masked because upstream have poor packaging 
 practices.

 The source for Handbrake (I think) contains the source of loads of other 
 libs (which you might already have installed on your system), effectively 
 snapshotted and hard-linked to. I.E., it's a mess.

 Stroller.





 I think you might be right. Now that you mention it, handbrake sources
 come with a humongous number of bundled libs. Makes chromium and
 openoffice look like a walk in the park.


I got this:

root@fireball / # equery f handbrake
 * Searching for handbrake ...
 * Contents of media-video/handbrake-0.9.9:
/usr
/usr/bin
/usr/bin/HandBrakeCLI
/usr/bin/ghb
/usr/share
/usr/share/applications
/usr/share/applications/ghb.desktop
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9/AUTHORS.bz2
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9/CREDITS.bz2
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9/NEWS.bz2
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9/THANKS.bz2
/usr/share/doc/handbrake-0.9.9/TRANSLATIONS.bz2
/usr/share/icons
/usr/share/icons/hicolor
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/hb-icon.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/64x64
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/64x64/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/64x64/apps/hb-icon.png
root@fireball / #
 

Does that help any?  Yea, I read about this in a article just about the
time this thread started.  I installed it for giggles.  I don't even
have a Blue Ray do hicky.   ROFL 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!




Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 20:42:50 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

  I thought Handbrake was masked because upstream have poor packaging
  practices.
  
  The source for Handbrake (I think) contains the source of loads of
  other libs (which you might already have installed on your system),
  effectively snapshotted and hard-linked to. I.E., it's a mess.

 I think you might be right. Now that you mention it, handbrake sources
 come with a humongous number of bundled libs. Makes chromium and
 openoffice look like a walk in the park.

That used to be the case but the 0.9.9 ebuild contain this comment

 # the version 0.9.9 supports the use of system libraries.

and DEPENDS on the libraries that used to be bundled.

And it is not masked, although earlier versions were, it is just ~arch
keyworded. Earlier versions could be problematic, especially with ffmpeg
changing their API every month with a vowel in it, but now the bundled
libraries are gone, and the clashes along with them.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows95 - crash compatible on Windows 3.x


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread Gevisz
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:00:21 + Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk 
wrote:

 On 16 Jan 2014, at 12:19 pm, Gevisz gev...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I have to watch a lot of dav video files and possibly convert
  them to a more common video format like avi or mp4.
  ...
  P.S. My vlc does not understands this format.
 
 Have you tried viewing them in mplayer?

Yes, I have just emerged it (with the default use flags)
but it does not play dav video files properly. 

 IMO ffmpeg or mplayer are the correct tools for conversion - my
 instinct says that Handbrake is not.
 
 In another comment you report some error messages. I think your video
 files are recordings created by a handheld video camera - it's
 possible there are bugs in the video it creates.

I think you are right.

Actually, I had the same thoughts but was not sure.

The videos are produced by a surveillance digital video recorder.

 At least if you use ffmpeg you'll be aware of these warnings - if the
 converted video plays, then fine, but at least you have the
 opportunity to tweak the settings and reduce the errors to the
 minimum. I think a GUI app like Handbrake will only hide the errors
 from you.

avi files created by ffmpeg are played ok both by vlc and mplayer.

So, I think that I have to convert them first and then use vlc.

Thank you for your help.

And thanks to all who replyed to this thread, as well. :) 




[gentoo-user] Re: opensmtp fatal error: socket: address family not supported

2014-01-17 Thread José Romildo Malaquias
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 08:47:06AM +0100, Gilles Chehade wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:21:54PM -0200, Jos? Romildo Malaquias wrote:
  Hello.
  
  When trying opensmtpd on my gentoo linux system, I am getting the
  following error message:
  
  # smtpd -vn
  configuration OK
  
  # smtpd -vd
  debug: init ssl-tree
  info: OpenSMTPD 201401061555p1 starting
  debug: bounce warning after 4h
  debug: using fs queue backend
  debug: using ramqueue scheduler backend
  debug: using ram stat backend
  info: startup [debug mode]
  mfa: building simple chains...
  mfa: building complex chains...
  mfa: done building complex chains
  mfa: done building default chain
  debug: queue: done loading queue into scheduler
  libevent 2.0.21-stable (epoll)
  debug: parent_send_config_ruleset: reloading
  debug: parent_send_config_mfa: reloading
  debug: parent_send_config: configuring smtp
  debug: mfa ready
  fatal: smtpd: socket: Address family not supported by protocol
  warn: lka - smtp: pipe closed
  warn: parent - smtp: imsg_read: Connection reset by peer
  warn: queue - smtp: pipe closed
  fatal: exiting: Connection reset by peer
  warn: mfa - smtp: pipe closed
  warn: control - smtp: pipe closed
  warn: mta - lka: pipe closed
  warn: mda - lka: pipe closed
  warn: scheduler - queue: pipe closed
  
  Any clues on how to fix this?
  
 
 Hi,
 
 Can you provide ifconfig output + configuration file ?

After some searching, I have found that the problem is related to ipv6,
which is not used in my system. And the file /etc/hosts had a linei

   #::1 localhost

After removing this line from /etc/hosts opensmtpd works as expected.

Romildo



[gentoo-user] Re: updating old box: segfaults with python [Solved] for me at least.

2014-01-17 Thread lovely2
And bingo was his nameo. Updated kernel to 3.6.25 and emerge glibc-2.17 and
python still works. :)




--
View this message in context: 
http://gentoo.2317880.n4.nabble.com/updating-old-box-segfaults-with-python-tp274112p274876.html
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[gentoo-user] Re: How to convert and watch dav video file?

2014-01-17 Thread James
Gevisz gevisz at gmail.com writes:


 I have to watch a lot of dav video files and possibly convert
 them to a more common video format like avi or mp4.

TI has a proprietary h.264 implemetation, encoding and encryption technology
built into various processors and DSPs, know as DaVinci [1]. The proprietary
videos are stored in a propriatary format. They provide a high-performance
TI DaVinci series DSP H.264 video. Many asian manufacturers
use a bastardized versions known as h.264-lite (AVCHD lite). Acutally,
the chineese video offering is a plethora of divergence and your experience,
vendor to vendor can vary widely. TI is the 800 lb gorilla in the h.264
space, probably providing the raw technology to 80% of the manufactures
of anything that runs h.264, or licensing via their patents on h.264.

There are tools/software to convert these video clips to other formats,
as you like, under windows, readily available[2]. 

You run into a lot of bullshit, deception and re-branding in this effort,
both from the camera and headend (storage) devices, as well as the snakes
that license these offering. All pay homage to MPLA (bastards). [3] TI
is one of the largest h.264 patent holders that MPLA enforces.

Here is an interesting discussion about a linux SDK [4].

A posible slick (but expensive) way to do this is purchase an expensive
package, like Sony's Vegas Pro12. I hear that is does everything, but,
I have not tried to work with .dav files...

I have not tried the latest offering of handbrake, but since it is voiced
to be stable and capable, I am interested in this possibility too.

hth,
James

[1] http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/dsp/video_processors/overview.page

[2] http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/KLite-Codec-Pack-Full/1094057842/3

[3] http://www.bahamassecurity.com/cctvforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=499

[4] http://www.bahamassecurity.com/cctvforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=176