Re: [gentoo-user] patching an ebuild file

[ralfconn]

Il 17/05/24 20:41, Neil Bothwick ha scritto:

On Fri, 17 May 2024 20:17:14 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:


I can edit the ebuild and then rebuild the manifest but on every
update I have to repeat.

Is there a way to patch an ebuild in a similar way we can patch
sources?

You can make an overlay and mask the pacakges from ::gentoo

No need to mask anything, just set the priority of your overlay higher
than that for gentoo. Otherwise you could end up not getting updates if
you don't check the gentoo repo regularly.


Creating the local overlay did not work, portage kept on pulling in the 
original ebuilds (from a public overlay themselves). Then I found that 
the modifications I needed could be done more simply via 
/etc/portage/package.accept_keywords, but that did not work either. Then 
I finally found that for my crossdev environment you need to edit 
/usr/aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu/etc/portage/package.accept_keywords. 
Probably the same holds for the local overlay but I have not verified yet.


thanks,

raf

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[Matthias Hanft]

netfab wrote:
> 
> You should open a bug

[X] Done: https://bugs.gentoo.org/932157

Thank you for your help!

-Matt

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[netfab]

You should open a bug. '-Wl,-z,notext' flag may be needed to be added
somewhere in the build system. From man ld :
> text
> notext
> textoff
>  Report an error if DT_TEXTREL is set, i.e., if the
>  position-independent or shared object has dynamic
>  relocations in read-only sections.
>  Don’t report an error if notext or textoff.

There have been relatively recent examples of patches being added in
portage for this kind of errors, see for example :
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/commit/?id=91c36206566e9aebaa0d374752188acca1e49190

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[Matthias Hanft]

netfab wrote:
> 
> Can you post the entire build log somewhere (or maybe as attachment) ?

I have put it at https://download.hanft.de/build.log

-Matt

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Michael,

On Thursday, 2024-05-16 17:46:04 +0100, you wrote:

> ...
> > The homepage returned by
> > 
> >$ eix --verbose sys-boot/elilo
> >* sys-boot/elilo
> > Available versions:  ~3.16-r5
> > ...
> >$
> > 
> > hints that this package is no longer maintained ... :-(
> > ...
> 
> Oh!  I haven't ever used it, but recalled its name and found it on the tree.  
> I suppose if it's stable and it works, it works whether maintained or not.

Well,  the "~" ahead of the  version number says  it's non-stable.   And
considering that booting is rather hardware, firmware and kernel related
and dependent, I personally would stay off of such a package :-/

Sincerely,
  Rainer

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[netfab]

Le 18/05/24 à 09:58, Matthias Hanft a tapoté :
> netfab schrieb:
> > 
> > Is this up-to-date ? What is your version of sys-devel/binutils ?
> 
> Yes, everything else is up-to-date:
> 

Can you post the entire build log somewhere (or maybe as attachment) ?

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[Matthias Hanft]

netfab schrieb:
> 
> Is this up-to-date ? What is your version of sys-devel/binutils ?

Yes, everything else is up-to-date:

gentoo ~ # uname -a
Linux gentoo 6.6.21-gentoo #3 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Sat May  4 19:18:38 CEST 2024 
i686 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
gentoo ~ # eshowkw binutils
Keywords for sys-devel/binutils:
  |   |   u  |
  | a   a p s l r   a |   n  |
  | m   r h   p p   i o i s l m m | e u s| r
  | d a m p p c a x a o s 3 p 6 i | a s l| e
  | 6 r 6 p p 6 r 8 6 n c 9 h 8 p | p e o| p
  | 4 m 4 a c 4 c 6 4 g v 0 a k s | i d t| o
--+---+--+---
[...]
--+---+--+---
   [I]2.42-r1 | + ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ + ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 7 o 2.42 | gentoo
--+---+--+---
  | o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | 7 o  | gentoo
gentoo ~ # eshowkw gcc
Keywords for sys-devel/gcc:
   |   |   u   |
   | a   a p s l r   a |   n   |
   | m   r h   p p   i o i s l m m | e u s | r
   | d a m p p c a x a o s 3 p 6 i | a s l | e
   | 6 r 6 p p 6 r 8 6 n c 9 h 8 p | p e o | p
   | 4 m 4 a c 4 c 6 4 g v 0 a k s | i d t | o
---+---+---+---
[...]
---+---+---+---
[I]13.2.1_p20240210| + + + + + + + + ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 8 o 13| gentoo
   13.2.1_p20240503| ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 8 o   | gentoo
   13.2.1_p20240510| o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | 8 #   | gentoo
  13.3.| o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | 8 o   | gentoo
---+---+---+---
gentoo ~ # eshowkw glibc
Keywords for sys-libs/glibc:
|   |   u |
| a   a p s l r   a |   n |
| m   r h   p p   i o i s l m m | e u s   | r
| d a m p p c a x a o s 3 p 6 i | a s l   | e
| 6 r 6 p p 6 r 8 6 n c 9 h 8 p | p e o   | p
| 4 m 4 a c 4 c 6 4 g v 0 a k s | i d t   | o
+---+-+---
[...]
[I]2.38-r13 | + + + + + + + + ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 8 o | gentoo
   2.39-r4  | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 8 # | gentoo
   2.39-r5  | ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ | 8 o | gentoo
   2.39-r6  | o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | 8 # | gentoo
    | o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o | 8 o | gentoo

-Matt

Re: [gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[netfab]

Hi,

Le 18/05/24 à 09:31, Matthias Hanft a tapoté :
> I'm keeping a (virtual) pretty old 32-bit Gentoo alive [...]

Is this up-to-date ? What is your version of sys-devel/binutils ?

[gentoo-user] openjdk 17 on 32 bit systems

[Matthias Hanft]

Hi,

I'm keeping a (virtual) pretty old 32-bit Gentoo alive (just for playing
and testing).  Everything works fine - except installing a JRE in order
to execute some .jar files.

openjdk-jre-bin and openjdk-bin aren't available for x86, so I guess I
have to install openjdk (stable 17.0.10_p7).  But that doesn't work:

--- cut here ---

[...]
/usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/13/../../../../i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld:
/var/tmp/portage/dev-java/openjdk-17.0.10_p7/work/jdk17u-jdk-17.0.10-ga/build/linux-x86-server-release/hotspot/variant-server/libjvm/objs/adaptiveSizePolicy.o:
 warning: relocation in read-only section
`.text'
/usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/13/../../../../i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: 
read-only segment has dynamic relocations
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
gmake[3]: *** [lib/CompileJvm.gmk:144: 
/var/tmp/portage/dev-java/openjdk-17.0.10_p7/work/jdk17u-jdk-17.0.10-ga/build/linux-x86-server-release/support/modules_libs/java.base/server/libjvm.so]
 Error 1
gmake[3]: Leaving directory 
'/var/tmp/portage/dev-java/openjdk-17.0.10_p7/work/jdk17u-jdk-17.0.10-ga/make/hotspot'
gmake[2]: *** [make/Main.gmk:252: hotspot-server-libs] Error 2
gmake[2]: Leaving directory 
'/var/tmp/portage/dev-java/openjdk-17.0.10_p7/work/jdk17u-jdk-17.0.10-ga'
ERROR: Build failed for target 'bootcycle-images' in configuration 
'linux-x86-server-release' (exit code 2)

--- cut here ---

I have already played with CFLAGS (-Wno-error) and USE flags (headless-awt
and jbootstrap), but to no avail.

Any hints how to get this working?

Thanks,

-Matt

Re: [gentoo-user] patching an ebuild file

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 17 May 2024 20:17:14 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:

> > I can edit the ebuild and then rebuild the manifest but on every
> > update I have to repeat.
> > 
> > Is there a way to patch an ebuild in a similar way we can patch
> > sources?

> You can make an overlay and mask the pacakges from ::gentoo

No need to mask anything, just set the priority of your overlay higher
than that for gentoo. Otherwise you could end up not getting updates if
you don't check the gentoo repo regularly.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Accept that some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue.


pgp_hEiwpYeF2.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] patching an ebuild file

[Matt Connell]

On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 20:17 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:
> > Is there a way to patch an ebuild in a similar way we can patch
> > sources?
> > 
> > thanks,
> > 
> > raffaele
> 
> You can make an overlay and mask the pacakges from ::gentoo

+1 for an overlay, because others may want to use those ebuilds as well
for similar work.

Re: [gentoo-user] patching an ebuild file

[Alarig Le Lay]

On Fri 17 May 2024 19:26:02 GMT, ralfconn wrote:
> For my raspberry cross-compilation project I need to do simple 
> modifications locally to some ebuilds.
> 
> I can edit the ebuild and then rebuild the manifest but on every update 
> I have to repeat.
> 
> Is there a way to patch an ebuild in a similar way we can patch sources?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> raffaele

You can make an overlay and mask the pacakges from ::gentoo

[gentoo-user] patching an ebuild file

[ralfconn]

For my raspberry cross-compilation project I need to do simple 
modifications locally to some ebuilds.


I can edit the ebuild and then rebuild the manifest but on every update 
I have to repeat.


Is there a way to patch an ebuild in a similar way we can patch sources?

thanks,

raffaele

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

ralfconn wrote:
> Il 16/05/24 20:46, Dale ha scritto:
>> Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
>> newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
>> Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
>> speed you see.
> I've not saved the merge times for the 8350 so I'll only give you the
> Ryzen 9 times, maybe you can compare with yours:
>
> # qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.44.1-r410: 41′22″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.5-r410: 19′45″ average for 2 merges
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r600: 47′39″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r410: 48′55″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.3-r410: 21′09″ average for 1 merge
>
> # qlop -mav firefox
> www-client/firefox-126.0: 31′35″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.3: 13′29″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.2: 12′42″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.1: 30′18″ average for 1 merge
>
> The 2x or more difference in merge times I believe are due to the fact
> that sometimes I build the bigger packages on their own to avoid
> running out of memory, other times I don't so the load gets split
> amongst various compilations and time stretches. I think firefox with
> the 8350 was in the hours range, so I had switched to the -bin since
> long time.
>
> I have 64Gb of RAM to account for the 12cpus/24threads. Even so I can
> run out of memory if I try to build firefox+thunderbird+webkit-gtk at
> the same time, so I often use the --exclude emerge option with these
> behemoths.
>
> I've also had a Ryzen 7 5700X/32Gb for a short time, then I passed it
> to my son and got me the 9. These are the merge times for the
> webkit-gtk, I switched to non-bin firefox only with the 9:
>
> # qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.5-r410: 26′52″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.4-r410: 25′16″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.3-r410: 59′46″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.2-r410: 32′47″ average for 2 merges
>
> Not a huge difference compared to the 9, as foreseeable, after all
> it's the exact same architecture with some more pepper.
>
> If you go for the Ryzen remember that its instruction set is not
> compatible with the Athlon's so if you built your 8350 system with
> e.g. -march=native (as I did) you need to recompile @world with a less
> restrictive -march before moving the disk to the Ryzen system
> otherwise it won't even boot.
>
> raf
>
>

The only package I can compare to is Firefox.  I don't have the other
one.  Still, it compiles Firefox a lot faster.  It's a pretty good size
difference in speed. 

Thanks for the info.  Helps me know what to expect. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[ralfconn]

Il 16/05/24 20:46, Dale ha scritto:

Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
speed you see.
I've not saved the merge times for the 8350 so I'll only give you the 
Ryzen 9 times, maybe you can compare with yours:


# qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.44.1-r410: 41′22″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.5-r410: 19′45″ average for 2 merges
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r600: 47′39″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r410: 48′55″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.3-r410: 21′09″ average for 1 merge

# qlop -mav firefox
www-client/firefox-126.0: 31′35″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.3: 13′29″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.2: 12′42″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.1: 30′18″ average for 1 merge

The 2x or more difference in merge times I believe are due to the fact 
that sometimes I build the bigger packages on their own to avoid running 
out of memory, other times I don't so the load gets split amongst 
various compilations and time stretches. I think firefox with the 8350 
was in the hours range, so I had switched to the -bin since long time.


I have 64Gb of RAM to account for the 12cpus/24threads. Even so I can 
run out of memory if I try to build firefox+thunderbird+webkit-gtk at 
the same time, so I often use the --exclude emerge option with these 
behemoths.


I've also had a Ryzen 7 5700X/32Gb for a short time, then I passed it to 
my son and got me the 9. These are the merge times for the webkit-gtk, I 
switched to non-bin firefox only with the 9:


# qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.5-r410: 26′52″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.4-r410: 25′16″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.3-r410: 59′46″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.2-r410: 32′47″ average for 2 merges

Not a huge difference compared to the 9, as foreseeable, after all it's 
the exact same architecture with some more pepper.


If you go for the Ryzen remember that its instruction set is not 
compatible with the Athlon's so if you built your 8350 system with e.g. 
-march=native (as I did) you need to recompile @world with a less 
restrictive -march before moving the disk to the Ryzen system otherwise 
it won't even boot.


raf

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

ralfconn wrote:
> Il 15/05/24 16:23, Alan Mackenzie ha scritto:
>> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
>> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
>> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
>> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
>>
> For a Ryzen 9 5900X (105W TDP) here I use a Noctua CPU cooler NH-U12A
> PWM plus a Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM on the case, a pretty expensive
> solution and probably an overkill since even while building for Gentoo
> @24 threads the noise is audible but a LOT less than the old FX-8350
> (125W TDP) with the stock Wraith cooler. During normal work it's
> almost inaudibile. I don't play games.
>
> raf

Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
speed you see. 

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Michael]

On Thursday, 16 May 2024 17:41:20 BST Dr Rainer Woitok wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> On Thursday, 2024-05-16 09:26:39 +0100, you wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > > > I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
> > > 
> > > ...
> > > 
> > >  Still available and still working on non-uefi setups:
> > > https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/sys-boot/lilo
> > > 
> > > ...
> > 
> > There's also 'sys-boot/elilo' for EFI systems.
> 
> The homepage returned by
> 
>$ eix --verbose sys-boot/elilo
>* sys-boot/elilo
> Available versions:  ~3.16-r5
> Homepage:https://sourceforge.net/projects/elilo/
> Description: Linux boot loader for EFI-based systems such as
> IA-64 License: GPL-2
>$
> 
> hints that this package is no longer maintained ... :-(
> 
> Sincerely,
>   Rainer

Oh!  I haven't ever used it, but recalled its name and found it on the tree.  
I suppose if it's stable and it works, it works whether maintained or not.

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Michael,

On Thursday, 2024-05-16 09:26:39 +0100, you wrote:

> ...
> > > I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
> > ...
> >  Still available and still working on non-uefi setups:
> > https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/sys-boot/lilo
> > 
> > ...
> 
> There's also 'sys-boot/elilo' for EFI systems.

The homepage returned by

   $ eix --verbose sys-boot/elilo
   * sys-boot/elilo
Available versions:  ~3.16-r5
Homepage:https://sourceforge.net/projects/elilo/
Description: Linux boot loader for EFI-based systems such as 
IA-64
License: GPL-2
   $

hints that this package is no longer maintained ... :-(

Sincerely,
  Rainer

Re: [gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Walter,

On Wednesday, 2024-05-15 17:28:46 -0400, you wrote:

>   What I *CAN* do... upload/download/create/delete *FILES* on SD card
> 
>   What I *CANNOT* do... create new *DIRECTORIES* on SD card
> 
> [x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1] mkdir data
> mkdir: cannot create directory ‘data’: Input/output error
> 
>   This happens with both "jmtps" and "simple-mtpfs", so I think it's
> probably a systemic issue that affects all implementions.

Though I also have "simple-mtpfs" installed I'm mostly using it with the
SD cards mounted read-only.  For "real" work I'm using "adb" provided by
"dev-util/android-tools".  Among many other things like pushing files to
or pulling files from your mobile phone,  it provides a "shell" sub-com-
mand which allows executing a single shell command  on the mobile device
or opening a shell on it for issuing more commands in a row:

   $ adb shell
   herolte:/ $ cd /storage/emulated/0
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ ls -ld .
   drwxrwx--x 27 root sdcard_rw 4096 2024-05-16 08:01 .
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ touch xxx
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ ls -l xxx
   -rw-rw 1 root sdcard_rw 0 2024-05-16 16:13 xxx
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ mkdir yyy
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ ls -ld yyy
   drwxrwx--x 2 root sdcard_rw 4096 2024-05-16 16:13 yyy
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ rmdir yyy
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ rm xxx
   herolte:/storage/emulated/0 $ cd /storage/5BC5-805B
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ ls -ld .
   drwxrwx--x 7 root sdcard_rw 32768 2024-02-21 20:20 .
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ touch xxx
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ ls -l xxx
   -rwxrwx--x 1 root sdcard_rw 0 2024-05-16 16:14 xxx
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ mkdir yyy
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ ls -ld yyy
   drwxrwx--x 2 root sdcard_rw 32768 2024-05-16 16:15 yyy
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ rmdir yyy
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ rm xxx
   herolte:/storage/5BC5-805B $ exit

Three additional remarks:

- The mobile phone is not required to be rooted.

- But to get "adb" working requires "USB Debugging" to be enabled on the
  mobile device.   On your mobile  device this option can be found under
  "Settings -> Developer Options" (if the "Developer Options"  are still
  hidden in the "Settings" menu,  make them visible  once and forever by
  opening "Settings -> About Device -> Software Information" and tapping
  "Build Number" seven times).

- For security reasons (for instance  when charging your phone at a pub-
  lic charging station)  you should only enable  "USB Debugging" on your
  own phone while connecting it with your own computer for file transfer
  or similar work.

Sincerely,
  Rainer

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[ralfconn]

Il 15/05/24 16:23, Alan Mackenzie ha scritto:

As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?

For a Ryzen 9 5900X (105W TDP) here I use a Noctua CPU cooler NH-U12A 
PWM plus a Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM on the case, a pretty expensive solution 
and probably an overkill since even while building for Gentoo @24 
threads the noise is audible but a LOT less than the old FX-8350 (125W 
TDP) with the stock Wraith cooler. During normal work it's almost 
inaudibile. I don't play games.


raf

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 10:42:16AM +0100, Nuno Silva wrote

> Did anything change? Any tablet software upgrade? Did the MTP tool on
> the computer side change? Or perhaps the kernel, if it can influence
> this FUSE interaction somehow?

  Just the usual updates to world.
 
> At this point I'd consider testing with known good versions if possible
> (those that can run chown without that error).

  There are no "known good versions".

>  Is mkdir something that used to work too?

  I did some more dicking around, and it gets "curiouser and curiouser".
I mount the phone on /home/waltdnes/tablet then...

cd sdcard1

mkdir subdir
mkdir: cannot create directory ‘subdir’: Input/output error

  This happens even as root.. *BUT* even as a regular user I can
"cd /home/waltdnes/tablet/screenshots" and create+delete subdirectories
as well as files.  To summarize, I can do what I want in the "DCIM" and
"screenshots" subdirectories ("ownership" notwithstanding), but not in
the top-level "sdcard1" directory

===

[x8940][waltdnes][~] tabon
Device 0 (VID=1bbb and PID=f003) is a Alcatel OneTouch 6034R.
Android device detected, assigning default bug flags
[x8940][waltdnes][~] cd /home/waltdnes/tablet
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet] ll
total 24
drwxr-xr-x   4 root root  0 Dec 31  1969 .
drwxr-xr-x 144 waltdnes users 24576 May 16 10:40 ..
drwxr-xr-x   5 root root  0 Aug 30  4438198 sdcard
drwxr-xr-x   6 root root  0 Jun 21  4438201 sdcard1
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet] cd sdcard1
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1] ll
total 0
drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 0 Jun 21  4438201 .
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 0 Dec 31  1969 ..
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 0 Oct 10  2033 DCIM
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 0 May 18  1950 LOST.DIR
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 0 Sep 25  2019 screenshots
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 0 Aug 19  1950 wlan_logs
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1] cd screenshots/
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1/screenshots] ll
total 0
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root0 Sep 25  2019 .
drwxr-xr-x 6 root root0 Jun 21  4438201 ..
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21669139 Aug  8  1934 walter.pdf
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1/screenshots] mkdir subdir
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1/screenshots] ll
total 0
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root0 Sep 25  2019 .
drwxr-xr-x 6 root root0 Dec 31  1969 ..
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root0 Dec 31  1969 subdir
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21669139 Aug  8  1934 walter.pdf
[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1/screenshots] cd
[x8940][waltdnes][~] taboff

===

-- 
Roses are red
Roses are blue
Depending on their velocity
Relative to you

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Michael]

On Thursday, 16 May 2024 10:42:16 BST Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2024-05-16, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 03:06:50PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote
> > 
> >> Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to
> >> do this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to
> >> root, create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
> >> have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what I
> >> want.
> >> 
> >   I have a short script ~/bin/tabon
> > 
> > [x8940][waltdnes][~] cat bin/tabon
> > #!/bin/bash
> > sudo /usr/bin/jmtpfs /home/waltdnes/tablet -o allow_other,auto_unmount,rw
> > #
> > # Only needed once
> > #sudo /bin/chown -R waltdnes:users /home/waltdnes/tablet
> > 
> >   The last (commented out) line *USED TO WORK*.  Now it spits out a
> > 
> > whole slew of...
> > 
> > /bin/chown: changing ownership of
> > '/home/waltdnes/tablet/sdcard1/blah_blah_blah': Function not implemented
> > 
> > ...one for each direcory and file.  I believe the phone formats the card
> > as either FAT32 or XFAT.
> 
> Did anything change? Any tablet software upgrade? Did the MTP tool on
> the computer side change? Or perhaps the kernel, if it can influence
> this FUSE interaction somehow?
> 
> At this point I'd consider testing with known good versions if possible
> (those that can run chown without that error). Is mkdir something that
> used to work too?
> 
> The "Function not implemented" looks off for something that used to work
> before. (Or was it failing silently before? If this is FAT* or exFAT,
> wouldn't ownership be a thing for the FUSE tool to set itself? Or does
> exFAT have the concept of ownership?)

FAT/exFAT do not support filesystem level user permissions and consequently 
you would get a "Function not implemented" error with chown.

When a USB device with a FAT/exFAT fs, is mounted with udisksctl they show up 
as:

$ lsblk -o PATH,TYPE,FSTYPE,OWNER,GROUP,MODE,MOUNTPOINT /dev/sdb1
PATH  TYPE FSTYPE OWNER GROUP MODE   MOUNTPOINT
/dev/sdb1 part vfat   root  disk  brw-rw /run/media/michael/CRUCIAL-8G

and the fs is mounted with the sticky bit so it writeable by the user:

$ ls -la /run/media/michael/CRUCIAL-8G/
total 2500976
drwxr-xr-x  2 michael michael  16384 Jan  1  1970  .
drwxr-x---+ 3 rootroot60 May 16 15:52  ..


exFAT looks the same if you have enabled the exFAT kernel driver, as opposed 
to using FUSE.

I don't have a device using MTP here to check how it is mounted over FUSE, but 
FUSE is meant to mount a device with the permissions of the user who mounts it 
AND the user can only mount on a mountpoint for which they have write 
permission.

However, there is a kernel bug if the default_permissions mount option has not 
been used, whereby results of the first permission check performed by the file 
system for a directory entry are cached and reused - even if the permissions 
have since changed - see here:

https://github.com/libfuse/libfuse

I do remember having some trouble creating directories on an SD card in a 
GARMIN GPS device.  I had to remove it and mount it on Linux to be able to 
work on it, but can't recall the details. 


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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Michael]

On Thursday, 16 May 2024 11:13:31 BST Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> Am Wed, May 15, 2024 at 07:08:11PM +0100 schrieb Michael:
> > Hi Alan,
> > 
> > On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > > Hello, Gentoo.
> > > […]
> > > So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> > > inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> > 
> > […]
> > 
> > > As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> > > cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> > > off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> > > cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the upcoming answers!
> > 
> > WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.
> 
> Are you sure about the noise? First there is the water pump and second,
> the heat from the air cycle needs to get somewhere, which is donw with fans.
> So unless you get a big radiator with several fans, you just relocate the
> fan noise inside the case.

Unless faulty a WC pump is inaudible.  A radiator with two 140mm fans will 
just tick over, even under heavy load and overclocked, while I've see AC fans 
spin above 1200 RPM.  Either way, I think there's more noise coming out of 
case fans than the CPU's AC, which is in the guts of the case.

Another way to think about it, the liquid cooling medium can absorb more heat 
until it is saturated enough to start spinning higher the 2 or 3 radiator 
fans, which are typically larger than AC fan(s).

There's also a question of just buying an AIO cooler, or some custom oversized 
build which will be on a different level of performance (and cost).


> I have a 10 years old i5 with a TDP of I think 84 W. On that sits a normal
> (not even high-performance) tower cooler with a single 120 mm fan. At full
> load the CPU draws around 50 W, maybe even less unless you do prime95. So my
> cooler is basically overkill. But this allows the fan to never leave the
> minimum RPM range of ~500…600 1/min and is unaudible even at full load.

Yes, at these RPMs it will be very quiet, but I expect your new CPU will spin 
its AC faster when under load.


> However …
> 
> > You could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a
> > better PSU, monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)
> > 
> > https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/
> > 
> > Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles
> > will
> > complete sooner too.
> 
> … the 7000X are hotheads, because they operate way above the efficiency
> sweetspot just to get the longest bar in benchmark diagrams. If you reduce
> the power target¹ in the BIOS, you lose a few percent in performance, but
> get a disproportionately bigger reduction in energy consumption.
> 
> ¹ The TDP of a 7700X is 105 W. The maximum permanent power draw is TDP * 1.4
> (ish, can’t remember the exact details right now). So if you reduce the
> target to 84 W, you draw a little over 100 W. That’s easy-peasy for a
> mormal 120 mm tower cooler. One additional advantage of an air cooler is
> that it also blows air over your mainboard and its power stages. That’s
> something you don’t get with a water loop and need an extra case fan for—IF
> you keep the CPU on high load all the time which causes more heat buildup
> in the VRMs.

As you say, an AC can also draw air at close proximity over the RAM modules 
and VRMs compared to the more diffused airflow of case fan(s), which is an 
additional benefit.  If you will tune down the CPU, as opposed to O/C it, then 
I think an air cooler will be more than adequate and represent more bang for 
your buck.

I came across this video, but more detailed reviews and tests should be 
available for your specific CPU in the interwebs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxf4ZXJTNpI


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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Frank Steinmetzger]

Am Wed, May 15, 2024 at 07:08:11PM +0100 schrieb Michael:
> Hi Alan,
> 
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.
> > […]
> > So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> > inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> > 
> […]
> > As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> > cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> > off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> > cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> > 
> > Thanks for the upcoming answers!
> 
> WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.

Are you sure about the noise? First there is the water pump and second, 
the heat from the air cycle needs to get somewhere, which is donw with fans.
So unless you get a big radiator with several fans, you just relocate the 
fan noise inside the case.

I have a 10 years old i5 with a TDP of I think 84 W. On that sits a normal 
(not even high-performance) tower cooler with a single 120 mm fan. At full 
load the CPU draws around 50 W, maybe even less unless you do prime95. So my 
cooler is basically overkill. But this allows the fan to never leave the 
minimum RPM range of ~500…600 1/min and is unaudible even at full load.
However …

> You could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a 
> better PSU, monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)
> 
> https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/
> 
> Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles will 
> complete sooner too.

… the 7000X are hotheads, because they operate way above the efficiency 
sweetspot just to get the longest bar in benchmark diagrams. If you reduce 
the power target¹ in the BIOS, you lose a few percent in performance, but 
get a disproportionately bigger reduction in energy consumption.

¹ The TDP of a 7700X is 105 W. The maximum permanent power draw is TDP * 1.4 
(ish, can’t remember the exact details right now). So if you reduce the 
target to 84 W, you draw a little over 100 W. That’s easy-peasy for a mormal 
120 mm tower cooler. One additional advantage of an air cooler is that it 
also blows air over your mainboard and its power stages. That’s something 
you don’t get with a water loop and need an extra case fan for—IF you keep 
the CPU on high load all the time which causes more heat buildup in the VRMs.

-- 
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

The perfect diet: no breakfast in the morning,
in return forego pudding at lunch and then go to bed without dinner.


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[gentoo-user] Re: mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Nuno Silva]

On 2024-05-16, Walter Dnes wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 03:06:50PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote
>> 
>> Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to
>> do this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to
>> root, create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
>> have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what I want.
>
>   I have a short script ~/bin/tabon
>
> [x8940][waltdnes][~] cat bin/tabon
> #!/bin/bash
> sudo /usr/bin/jmtpfs /home/waltdnes/tablet -o allow_other,auto_unmount,rw
> #
> # Only needed once
> #sudo /bin/chown -R waltdnes:users /home/waltdnes/tablet
>
>   The last (commented out) line *USED TO WORK*.  Now it spits out a
> whole slew of...
>
> /bin/chown: changing ownership of 
> '/home/waltdnes/tablet/sdcard1/blah_blah_blah': Function not implemented
>
> ...one for each direcory and file.  I believe the phone formats the card
> as either FAT32 or XFAT.

Did anything change? Any tablet software upgrade? Did the MTP tool on
the computer side change? Or perhaps the kernel, if it can influence
this FUSE interaction somehow?

At this point I'd consider testing with known good versions if possible
(those that can run chown without that error). Is mkdir something that
used to work too?

The "Function not implemented" looks off for something that used to work
before. (Or was it failing silently before? If this is FAT* or exFAT,
wouldn't ownership be a thing for the FUSE tool to set itself? Or does
exFAT have the concept of ownership?)

-- 
Nuno Silva

[gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Nuno Silva]

On 2024-05-16, Michael wrote:

> On Thursday, 16 May 2024 01:10:32 BST k...@aspodata.se wrote:
>> Wol:
>> > On 15/05/2024 11:40, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> > > I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.  🙂  Anyway, I
>> > > never let it near my systems.
>> > 
>> > I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>>  Still available and still working on non-uefi setups:
>> https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/sys-boot/lilo
>> 
>> Regards,
>> /Karl Hammar
>
> There's also 'sys-boot/elilo' for EFI systems.

What about grub as in "grub1" or grub0.xx for PC BIOS, is it still
available (outside the main tree?) and working e.g. with patches, or is
there some unsolved compilation issue nowadays?

-- 
Nuno Silva

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Wed, 15 May 2024 20:55:53 -0500, Dale wrote:

> > xclip is not a clipboard, it is a tool to manage the contents of the
> > existing clipboards and selection buffers.
> >
> >  
> 
> 
> Well, just for giggles. 
> 
> root@fireball / # echo "" | xclip
> -bash: xclip: command not found
> root@fireball / #
> 
> It didn't like it.  :/

You missed out the important first step:

$ emerge -a xclip

 :-(

-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 683: Time out error - Operator fell asleep while waiting for the
system to complete boot procedure.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Michael]

On Thursday, 16 May 2024 01:10:32 BST k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> Wol:
> > On 15/05/2024 11:40, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.  🙂  Anyway, I
> > > never let it near my systems.
> > 
> > I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
> 
> ...
> 
>  Still available and still working on non-uefi setups:
> https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/sys-boot/lilo
> 
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar

There's also 'sys-boot/elilo' for EFI systems.


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Re: [gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 03:06:50PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote
> 
> Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to
> do this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to
> root, create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
> have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what I want.

  I have a short script ~/bin/tabon

[x8940][waltdnes][~] cat bin/tabon
#!/bin/bash
sudo /usr/bin/jmtpfs /home/waltdnes/tablet -o allow_other,auto_unmount,rw
#
# Only needed once
#sudo /bin/chown -R waltdnes:users /home/waltdnes/tablet

  The last (commented out) line *USED TO WORK*.  Now it spits out a
whole slew of...

/bin/chown: changing ownership of 
'/home/waltdnes/tablet/sdcard1/blah_blah_blah': Function not implemented

...one for each direcory and file.  I believe the phone formats the card
as either FAT32 or XFAT.

-- 
Roses are red
Roses are blue
Depending on their velocity
Relative to you

Re: [gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 4:38 PM Walter Dnes  wrote:
>
> > Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to do
> > this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to root,
> > create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
> > have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what
> > I want.
>
>   So I did "su" and tried changing ownership... failed
>
> x8940 /home/waltdnes/tablet # chown waltdnes:users sdcard1
> chown: changing ownership of 'sdcard1': Function not implemented
>
>   Let's try "chmod"... failed silently
>
> [x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] chmod 777 sdcard1
> [x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] ll
> total 24
> drwxr-xr-x   4 root root  0 Dec 31  1969 .
> drwxr-xr-x 144 waltdnes users 24576 May 15 18:17 ..
> drwxr-xr-x   5 root root  0 Nov 16  4456932 sdcard
> drwxr-xr-x   6 root root  0 Apr 22  4456932 sdcard1
>
>   root can't chmod sdcard1.
>
> [x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] mkdir sdcard1/data
> mkdir: cannot create directory ‘sdcard1/data’: Input/output error
>
>   and root can't create a directory!!!  Let's try top level...
>
> [x8940][root][~] cd /home/waltdnes/tablet
> [x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] mkdir data
> mkdir: cannot create directory ‘data’: Read-only file system
>


So it seems very strange to me that, per the initial message, you
can create and delete files, which implies the file system
is not read only, but the mkdir command thinks it is read only.

And from what I've read there is no read-only switch on this
SD card, correct? It's just something like a chip that plugs into
a Raspberry Pi or a camera, correct?

I am not exactly clear from rereading what the actual SD card is
or how it's attached, and you are using file system types I know
nothing about. However, if only for clarity, what I've had to do
even with ext3/4 is essentially the following:

1) su - and enter root password.

2) As root navigate to /home/walter/tablet or whatever the
location is where you believe you are really ON the SD card

3) Create a file using vi, save the file, make sure it's there
and make sure it's owned root:root.

4) Exit the su and make sure the file is there. Unmount the
SD card, remount the SD card and check that it's really
there. Put the SD card in some other system where you
can see the file, if possible.

5) Assuming all of that makes sense, remount the CD
card, su there again, and chown the file to walter:walter
or walter:user or whatever is appropriate. Make sure
you can edit the file from some other terminal process.

6) As root in the su, then try to create a directory. If it's
still read only then this is way above my pay grade. However
if you can create the directory, which I've always been able
to do as root, then chown -R the directory to your user
ID.

It is important to ensure that OS believes you have
read/write access all the way up and down the chain so
you might need to chown -R walter:walter AS ROOT
from your home directory into the mount point, which if
I understand, is /home/walter/tablet, so I'd be root and
doing the command sitting in /home/walter.

Sorry. Wish I could be more helpful but this has been
a problem on my systems ever since I started using
Linux 25-30 years ago and I struggle with it maybe once
a year.

Good luck,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 15 May 2024 08:09:01 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>>> x11-misc/xclip
>>>
>>> Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your
>>> previous selection.  
>> Well, since it works, something is acting as a clipboard.  It doesn't
>> seem to be xclip in my case.
> xclip is not a clipboard, it is a tool to manage the contents of the
> existing clipboards and selection buffers.
>
>


Well, just for giggles. 

root@fireball / # echo "" | xclip
-bash: xclip: command not found
root@fireball / #

It didn't like it.  :/

It seems that it only remembers one in memory anyway.  Once I highlight
something else, it kinda clears itself.  That works.  Heck, I have to
clear the Konsole when I exit kpcli anyway. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[karl]

Wol:
> On 15/05/2024 11:40, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.  🙂  Anyway, I 
> > never let
> > it near my systems.
> 
> I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
...

 Still available and still working on non-uefi setups:
https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/sys-boot/lilo

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

Re: [gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Walter Dnes]

> Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to do
> this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to root,
> create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
> have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what
> I want.

  So I did "su" and tried changing ownership... failed

x8940 /home/waltdnes/tablet # chown waltdnes:users sdcard1
chown: changing ownership of 'sdcard1': Function not implemented

  Let's try "chmod"... failed silently

[x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] chmod 777 sdcard1
[x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] ll
total 24
drwxr-xr-x   4 root root  0 Dec 31  1969 .
drwxr-xr-x 144 waltdnes users 24576 May 15 18:17 ..
drwxr-xr-x   5 root root  0 Nov 16  4456932 sdcard
drwxr-xr-x   6 root root  0 Apr 22  4456932 sdcard1

  root can't chmod sdcard1.

[x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] mkdir sdcard1/data
mkdir: cannot create directory ‘sdcard1/data’: Input/output error

  and root can't create a directory!!!  Let's try top level...

[x8940][root][~] cd /home/waltdnes/tablet
[x8940][root][/home/waltdnes/tablet] mkdir data
mkdir: cannot create directory ‘data’: Read-only file system

  A suggestion at https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7317638

> The permissions for non-linux filesystems are defined for the whole
> partition at the time it's mounted, and you can change them by
> configuring the drive in /etc/fstab.

  So I added a line to /etc/fstab, but no luck...

/sys/fs/fuse/connections /home/waltdnes/tablet auto 
noauto,users,noatime,nodiratime,async,rw 0 0

  No luck.

-- 
Roses are red
Roses are blue
Depending on their velocity
Relative to you

[gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Nuno Silva]

On 2024-05-15, Michael wrote:

>
> There are 3 'cliboards', known as selections, I know of:
>
> 1. Primary - you select some text by holding down your left mouse button (or 
> Shift+arrow) and you paste it with your middle button (or Shift+Insert - 
> depending on application).
>
> 2. Secondary - some applications will autoselect text, e.g. when you click in 
> the non-empty address bar of a browser.  This can replace any selection you 
> had in the Primary selection.  It depends on the particular application.
>
> 3. Clipboard - this is the Ctrl+x/c/v MSWindows style of cut/copy/paste menu 
> items.
>
> More details can be found in the spec here:
>
> https://specifications.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt

There's also this one:

  https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html

Which mentions the support for different targets, also mentioned in:

  https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2018/10/07/further-fun-with-the-clipboard/

(xclip can be used for targets too, "xclip -o -target TARGETS" for a
list of the currently available targets)

> As far as I know the Primary selection is not stored anywhere - other than 
> within the application's memory space where the range of characters have been 
> selected.  The xserver will call for this when you middle click to paste it 
> on 
> another application's window.
>
> The Clipboard may be stored in RAM or cache of any applications which use 
> this 
> method.

-- 
Nuno Silva

Re: [gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 2:29 PM Walter Dnes  wrote:
>
>   What I *CAN* do... upload/download/create/delete *FILES* on SD card
>
>   What I *CANNOT* do... create new *DIRECTORIES* on SD card
>
> [x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1] mkdir data
> mkdir: cannot create directory ‘data’: Input/output error
>
>   This happens with both "jmtps" and "simple-mtpfs", so I think it's
> probably a systemic issue that affects all implementions.  For now I'm
> using the "screenshots" directory for transferring miscellaneous files,
> but I'd really like to solve the core problem.  Any ideas?

Have you checked that the directory where you are attempting to
do this is one that your account owns? I generally have to su - to
root, create a directory at the top level, change it so that I own it and
have rwx permissions, and then exit root. After that I can do what I want.

HTH,
Mark

[gentoo-user] mtp cannot create directories on SD card on cellphone

[Walter Dnes]

  What I *CAN* do... upload/download/create/delete *FILES* on SD card

  What I *CANNOT* do... create new *DIRECTORIES* on SD card

[x8940][waltdnes][~/tablet/sdcard1] mkdir data
mkdir: cannot create directory ‘data’: Input/output error

  This happens with both "jmtps" and "simple-mtpfs", so I think it's
probably a systemic issue that affects all implementions.  For now I'm
using the "screenshots" directory for transferring miscellaneous files,
but I'd really like to solve the core problem.  Any ideas?

-- 
Roses are red
Roses are blue
Depending on their velocity
Relative to you

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Wed, 15 May 2024 08:09:01 -0500, Dale wrote:

> > x11-misc/xclip
> >
> > Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your
> > previous selection.  
> 
> Well, since it works, something is acting as a clipboard.  It doesn't
> seem to be xclip in my case.

xclip is not a clipboard, it is a tool to manage the contents of the
existing clipboards and selection buffers.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Loose bits sink chips.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Michael]

Hi Alan,

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
> 
> My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
> me), but 
> 
> The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
> around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
> lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
> rust and friends somewhat faster.
> 
> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> 
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?

I don't have anything as exotic running here, but you will need amdgpu, plus 
(potentially) amdgpu-pro for your graphics:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU-PRO

You will be able to confirm what is required in respect to firmware and kernel 
graphics driver components once you boot up with a liveUSB.  It will complain 
of any missing firmware.

For microcode, flash the BIOS with the latest OEM firmware and add the 
corresponding AMD family firmware file in your kernel:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMD_microcode

If you boot with the latest Ubuntu it will probably load everything required; 
then fish around dmesg and hwinfo, lspci, lscpu, etc. for relevant drivers and 
firmware files.


> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> 
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!

WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.  You 
could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a better PSU, 
monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)

https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/

Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles will 
complete sooner too.  I think an air cooler will be equally as effective 
thermally, with fewer components to go wrong.  Either way, consider the space 
envelop in the case because some dual fan air-coolers can be rather large.


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[gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Wols Lists  wrote:
> On 15/05/2024 11:40, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.    Anyway, I never let
>> it near my systems.
>
> I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(
>
> Grub isn't that bad - it's just that insists on trying to do everything 
> itself - and if you've got at all a strange setup it makes a complete 
> hash of it.

Grub2 is a bit overblown, but it's quite usable as long as you stick
to a manually generated grub.cfg file and stay away from the
auto-magical disk-probing configuration script world-domination
scheme.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Wols Lists]

On 15/05/2024 11:40, Peter Humphrey wrote:

I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.    Anyway, I never let
it near my systems.


I liked lilo. And then it disappeared :-(

Grub isn't that bad - it's just that insists on trying to do everything 
itself - and if you've got at all a strange setup it makes a complete 
hash of it.


LIKE GENTOO!

I've moaned about this before, but last time SUSE updated itself, it 
trashed grub.conf and left me with an unbootable system. And then gentoo 
sees that I've got an unmounted /boot and throws a complete and utter 
hissy fit because I told it not to touch it ...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Matt Connell]

On Wed, 2024-05-15 at 16:25 +, Grant Edwards wrote:
> You'll need kernel 5.18 and Mesa 22 plus recent firmware.
> 
> That article was almost 2 years old, so I'd be surprised if all those
> are not stable in Gentoo by now.

Mesa 22 is not.  Only version 24 is stable

:)

[gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Michael  wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:37:22 BST Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2024-05-15, Michael  wrote:
>
>> > The Clipboard may be stored in RAM or cache of any applications
>> > which use this method.
>> 
>> AFAICT, the clipboard contents is stored in the X server. When you
>> cut/copy something, the application sends that something to the X
>> server where it's stored.  When that application exits, the clipboard
>> contents are still there in the X server, and can still be requested
>> by other applications who want to do a "paste".
>
> What you write makes sense.

I got curious, and did some more Googling. It looks like the clipboard
contents only survive application exit if the application explicitly
tells the server it wants the clipboard contents to persist.  But,
AFIACT, that's what all apps do.

> I am not sure what happens in Wayland, where application windows are
> supposed to be isolated.

I try not to think about Wayland and dread the day when I'm forced to switch. :)

It's taken me 40 years to figure out X (most-sort-of)...

> I recall in earlier days the Primary selection would not work
> between windows, which was rather frustrating.  I think at present
> the Plasma desktop clipboard application acts as a mediator,
> probably engaging Xwayland - but I am not sure.
>
> There are quite a few settings in Plasma's clipboard application to
> configure interoperability between Primary & Clipboard selection and
> can be set to save the Primary selection in the Clipboard section
> and its history if so desired.
>
> With my current settings I can middle click to paste a Primary
> selection into Konsole, but Shift+Insert which works with Xterm &
> friends does not work with Konsole.

There probably should have been a section on cutbuffers, selections,
and clipboards in the X11 section of the Unix Hater's Handbook.

 which I highly recommend, BTW:

  https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Michael]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:37:22 BST Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-15, Michael  wrote:

> > The Clipboard may be stored in RAM or cache of any applications
> > which use this method.
> 
> AFAICT, the clipboard contents is stored in the X server. When you
> cut/copy something, the application sends that something to the X
> server where it's stored.  When that application exits, the clipboard
> contents are still there in the X server, and can still be requested
> by other applications who want to do a "paste".

What you write makes sense.

I am not sure what happens in Wayland, where application windows are supposed 
to be isolated.  I recall in earlier days the Primary selection would not work 
between windows, which was rather frustrating.  I think at present the Plasma 
desktop clipboard application acts as a mediator, probably engaging Xwayland - 
but I am not sure.

There are quite a few settings in Plasma's clipboard application to configure 
interoperability between Primary & Clipboard selection and can be set to save 
the Primary selection in the Clipboard section and its history if so desired.

With my current settings I can middle click to paste a Primary selection into 
Konsole, but Shift+Insert which works with Xterm & friends does not work with 
Konsole.


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[gentoo-user] Re: Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Alan Mackenzie  wrote:

> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics,

Technically, no. Gentoo doesn't.  However, the Linux kernel, Xorg, and
Mesa do. You'll need "recent" versions of those.  According to this
article:

https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7700x

You'll need kernel 5.18 and Mesa 22 plus recent firmware.

That article was almost 2 years old, so I'd be surprised if all those
are not stable in Gentoo by now.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> 
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?

The AMD website says it uses Radeon graphics, so it seems to be covered, as 
long as you have a USB-C connector.


> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> 
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!


-- 
Regards,
Peter.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
> me), but 
>
> The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
> around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
> lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
> rust and friends somewhat faster.
>
> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
>
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?
>
> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
>
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!
>


On the cooling point, I notice that newer CPUs actually consume less
power therefore produce less heat.  I've never used water.  I don't have
anything to drink close to my puter either.  I suspect that if you got a
pretty good size air CPU cooler, with a large quiet fan, you will find
it pretty quiet.  I have a FX-8350 right now.  I can't recall the power
it pulls right now but it is more than the newer CPUs.  I have a CPU
cooler with a 120mm fan and even at full load, I don't hear anything and
I'm right next to it.  I don't even hear the large case fans.  Keep in
mind, those case fans are 200mm fans. 

Some prefer water and for those who do, use water.  I just don't see why
newer CPUs that produce less heat would need water when air cooling
works fine on CPUs that produce more heat.  If you would rather avoid
water, I can't imagine a good air CPU cooler with a large fan not being
more than enough.  I might add, I'm always scared the pump will decide
to take a nap.  At least with a air cooler, it will cool some even
without a fan.  Could prevent burning out the CPU if you shutdown quick.

Maybe when I get me a new rig built I can share personal experience.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 14:37:22 BST Michael wrote:
>
>> There are 3 'cliboards', known as selections, I know of:
>>
>> 1. Primary - you select some text by holding down your left mouse button (or
>> Shift+arrow) and you paste it with your middle button (or Shift+Insert -
>> depending on application).
>>
>> 2. Secondary - some applications will autoselect text, e.g. when you click
>> in the non-empty address bar of a browser.  This can replace any selection
>> you had in the Primary selection.  It depends on the particular
>> application.
>>
>> 3. Clipboard - this is the Ctrl+x/c/v MSWindows style of cut/copy/paste menu
>> items.
> I just think of them simply as a selection buffer and a paste buffer. It 
> obviates any more complicated mental models.
>
>> I understand there's a new disk technology about to be released upon us with
>> laser heating up the area where data is being stored, to increase density
>> and therefore hugely increase capacity.  Your next spinning drive could
>> well be 30-50T or more!  0_0
> Oo-er!
>
> -- Regards, Peter.


This explanation makes sense.  Looks like once I highlight something
else, it forgets the previous highlight.  That goes with how it seems to
work as well. 

On the larger hard drives, I just bought a Fractal case that holds at
least 18 drives.  Now this.  :-D 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Michael  wrote:

> As far as I know the Primary selection is not stored anywhere -
> other than within the application's memory space where the range of
> characters have been selected. The xserver will call for this when
> you middle click to paste it on another application's window.


Right. When you highlight some text, the application asserts ownership
of the primary selection, but no contents of the selection are
transferred to the X server.

So, the X server knows who owns the selection, but it doesn't actually
store the contents anywhere. If you middle-click on a window, the X
server will make a call to the owner of selection to get the selection
contents and then provide that contents to the active window.

When process (X client) that owns the selection exits, the selection
becomes "empty" (unavailable).

> The Clipboard may be stored in RAM or cache of any applications
> which use this method.

AFAICT, the clipboard contents is stored in the X server. When you
cut/copy something, the application sends that something to the X
server where it's stored.  When that application exits, the clipboard
contents are still there in the X server, and can still be requested
by other applications who want to do a "paste".

With the usual behavior, the selection and clipboard sort of overlap:

When you highlight something the application asserts ownership of the
primary selection, but nothing is transferred to the X server. If you
then do a "copy", the application will send that highlighted text to
the clipbard.

If you haven't selected anything else, now you can either middle-click
or paste, and you'll get the same thing.

If you exit the app, then middle-click will produce nothing because
there is no selection owner. But, paste will still get the "copied"
data from the X server.

That said, something doesn't have to be selected (in the X11 sense) to
be copied into the clipboard -- but that's how most applications work
first you select (in the X11 sense) something then you copy it to the
clipboard.

--
Grant

[gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Gentoo.

My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
me), but 

The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
rust and friends somewhat faster.

So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.

But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
something obvious in the wiki?

As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?

Thanks for the upcoming answers!

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 14:37:22 BST Michael wrote:

> There are 3 'cliboards', known as selections, I know of:
> 
> 1. Primary - you select some text by holding down your left mouse button (or
> Shift+arrow) and you paste it with your middle button (or Shift+Insert -
> depending on application).
> 
> 2. Secondary - some applications will autoselect text, e.g. when you click
> in the non-empty address bar of a browser.  This can replace any selection
> you had in the Primary selection.  It depends on the particular
> application.
> 
> 3. Clipboard - this is the Ctrl+x/c/v MSWindows style of cut/copy/paste menu
> items.

I just think of them simply as a selection buffer and a paste buffer. It 
obviates any more complicated mental models.

> I understand there's a new disk technology about to be released upon us with
> laser heating up the area where data is being stored, to increase density
> and therefore hugely increase capacity.  Your next spinning drive could
> well be 30-50T or more!  0_0

Oo-er!

-- 
Regards,
Peter.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Michael]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 14:09:01 BST Dale wrote:
> Michael wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 11:56:04 BST Dale wrote:

> >> There doesn't appear to be a xclip on here, not as a command anyway.
> >> Could it be some other name?  Maybe it changed?  I'm sure it is
> >> something.  I just don't know what.
> >> 
> >> Thanks.
> >> 
> >> Dale
> >> 
> >> :-)  :-)
> > 
> > x11-misc/xclip
> > 
> > Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your
> > previous selection.
> 
> Well, since it works, something is acting as a clipboard.  It doesn't
> seem to be xclip in my case.  Anyway, that's what I been doing is
> highlighting something else and that makes it paste the new highlighted
> info instead of previous info.  I have no idea if those entries are
> stored somewhere or when gone, they gone.  I'm hoping they are gone. 

There are 3 'cliboards', known as selections, I know of:

1. Primary - you select some text by holding down your left mouse button (or 
Shift+arrow) and you paste it with your middle button (or Shift+Insert - 
depending on application).

2. Secondary - some applications will autoselect text, e.g. when you click in 
the non-empty address bar of a browser.  This can replace any selection you 
had in the Primary selection.  It depends on the particular application.

3. Clipboard - this is the Ctrl+x/c/v MSWindows style of cut/copy/paste menu 
items.

More details can be found in the spec here:

https://specifications.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt

As far as I know the Primary selection is not stored anywhere - other than 
within the application's memory space where the range of characters have been 
selected.  The xserver will call for this when you middle click to paste it on 
another application's window.

The Clipboard may be stored in RAM or cache of any applications which use this 
method.


> P. S. My new 16TB drive is almost done with the long SMART test.  :-D 

I understand there's a new disk technology about to be released upon us with 
laser heating up the area where data is being stored, to increase density and 
therefore hugely increase capacity.  Your next spinning drive could well be 
30-50T or more!  0_0
  

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[gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Dale  wrote:

>> Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your 
>> previous 
>> selection.
>
> Well, since it works, something is acting as a clipboard.

It's part of the X server.  Same for the two selections.

> It doesn't seem to be xclip in my case.  Anyway, that's what I been
> doing is highlighting something else and that makes it paste the new
> highlighted info instead of previous info.  I have no idea if those
> entries are stored somewhere or when gone, they gone.  I'm hoping
> they are gone. 

[gentoo-user] Re: Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Dale  wrote:

> I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
> looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there. 
>
> It wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard
> somewhere but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets
> when you highlight something else.

You're conflating to different but related things.

In X, the selection and the clipboard are two different "places".

When you click-drag to highlight text, that goes into the selection.
In X, there are actually two different selections: the primary and the
secondary. By default highlighted text goes into the primary
selection.

Middle-clicking shoves the contents of the primary selection into
stdin for whatever window is selected.

When you do "cut" or "copy" something, it goes into the clipboard.

When you "paste" it comes from the clipboard.

xclip can access (read or write) all three (primary selection,
secondary selection, and clipboard).

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/139191/whats-the-difference-between-primary-selection-and-clipboard-buffer
https://superuser.com/questions/90257/what-is-the-difference-between-the-x-clipboards
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/mgr0v/til_x11_has_three_clipboards/

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Michael wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 11:56:04 BST Dale wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 May 2024 03:44:49 -0500, Dale wrote:
 I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
 looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there.  It
 wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard somewhere
 but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets when you
 highlight something else.  I'm not aware of a way to access it yet. 
 I've looked for it but can't find it.  To be honest, I wish there was a
 way to clear it, wherever it is.  I clear my KDE clipboard that is on my
 desktop pretty regular.  I always do so after copying passwords or
 something important. 
>>> xclip manipulates both the standard and X selection clipboards. It works
>>> with the X selection clipboard by default, so you shold be able to clear
>>> it with
>>>
>>> echo "" | xclip
>>>
 I'm wondering if that clipboard is a part of Konsole itself.  I've never
 seen anything in the KDE clipboard that I just highlighted in Konsole. 
>>> It's part of X.
>>>
 I could use Bitwarden to generate passwords but then I'd need to copy it
 to my regular clipboard to get it to the Konsole.  I wanted to avoid
 that.
>>> Bitwarden has an option to clear the clipboard after a configurable time,
>>> much like KeePassXC.
>>>
>>> Naturally, if you are really paranoid about security, you will run your
>>> own Vaultwarden server to avoid the passwords ever going anywhere out of
>>> your control.
>> I wanted to check out the help info, maybe learn something new.  This is
>> what I get when trying to find xclip.
>>
>>
>> root@fireball / # xc 
>> xcam  xchm  xcircuit 
>> root@fireball / #
>>
>>
>> There doesn't appear to be a xclip on here, not as a command anyway. 
>> Could it be some other name?  Maybe it changed?  I'm sure it is
>> something.  I just don't know what. 
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
> x11-misc/xclip
>
> Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your previous 
> selection.

Well, since it works, something is acting as a clipboard.  It doesn't
seem to be xclip in my case.  Anyway, that's what I been doing is
highlighting something else and that makes it paste the new highlighted
info instead of previous info.  I have no idea if those entries are
stored somewhere or when gone, they gone.  I'm hoping they are gone. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S. My new 16TB drive is almost done with the long SMART test.  :-D 

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Michael]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 11:56:04 BST Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 May 2024 03:44:49 -0500, Dale wrote:
> >> I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
> >> looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there.  It
> >> wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard somewhere
> >> but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets when you
> >> highlight something else.  I'm not aware of a way to access it yet. 
> >> I've looked for it but can't find it.  To be honest, I wish there was a
> >> way to clear it, wherever it is.  I clear my KDE clipboard that is on my
> >> desktop pretty regular.  I always do so after copying passwords or
> >> something important. 
> > 
> > xclip manipulates both the standard and X selection clipboards. It works
> > with the X selection clipboard by default, so you shold be able to clear
> > it with
> > 
> > echo "" | xclip
> > 
> >> I'm wondering if that clipboard is a part of Konsole itself.  I've never
> >> seen anything in the KDE clipboard that I just highlighted in Konsole. 
> > 
> > It's part of X.
> > 
> >> I could use Bitwarden to generate passwords but then I'd need to copy it
> >> to my regular clipboard to get it to the Konsole.  I wanted to avoid
> >> that.
> > 
> > Bitwarden has an option to clear the clipboard after a configurable time,
> > much like KeePassXC.
> > 
> > Naturally, if you are really paranoid about security, you will run your
> > own Vaultwarden server to avoid the passwords ever going anywhere out of
> > your control.
> 
> I wanted to check out the help info, maybe learn something new.  This is
> what I get when trying to find xclip.
> 
> 
> root@fireball / # xc 
> xcam  xchm  xcircuit 
> root@fireball / #
> 
> 
> There doesn't appear to be a xclip on here, not as a command anyway. 
> Could it be some other name?  Maybe it changed?  I'm sure it is
> something.  I just don't know what. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

x11-misc/xclip

Or just select some empty space in an application, to overwrite your previous 
selection.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 15 May 2024 03:44:49 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
>> looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there.  It
>> wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard somewhere
>> but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets when you
>> highlight something else.  I'm not aware of a way to access it yet. 
>> I've looked for it but can't find it.  To be honest, I wish there was a
>> way to clear it, wherever it is.  I clear my KDE clipboard that is on my
>> desktop pretty regular.  I always do so after copying passwords or
>> something important. 
> xclip manipulates both the standard and X selection clipboards. It works
> with the X selection clipboard by default, so you shold be able to clear
> it with
>
> echo "" | xclip
>
>> I'm wondering if that clipboard is a part of Konsole itself.  I've never
>> seen anything in the KDE clipboard that I just highlighted in Konsole. 
> It's part of X.
>
>> I could use Bitwarden to generate passwords but then I'd need to copy it
>> to my regular clipboard to get it to the Konsole.  I wanted to avoid
>> that.
> Bitwarden has an option to clear the clipboard after a configurable time,
> much like KeePassXC.
>
> Naturally, if you are really paranoid about security, you will run your
> own Vaultwarden server to avoid the passwords ever going anywhere out of
> your control.
>
>


I wanted to check out the help info, maybe learn something new.  This is
what I get when trying to find xclip.


root@fireball / # xc 
xcam  xchm  xcircuit 
root@fireball / #


There doesn't appear to be a xclip on here, not as a command anyway. 
Could it be some other name?  Maybe it changed?  I'm sure it is
something.  I just don't know what. 

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 08:42:14 BST Wols Lists wrote:
> On 02/05/2024 11:46, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > When I started using Linux, the received wisdom was to keep a separate
> > /boot, and leave it unmounted during normal operation. The idea was that
> > a successful hacker would not, supposedly, be able to corrupt the kernel
> > ready for a reboot into their system.
> 
> And you can't have /boot on your system partition if, like me, you have
> one instance of grub booting into several different OSs or distros ...
> Less so now, but having multiple distros on one system was a popular
> hobbyist pastime!

I think whoever named grub had delusions of grandeur.  :)  Anyway, I never let 
it near my systems.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.


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Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Wed, 15 May 2024 03:44:49 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
> looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there.  It
> wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard somewhere
> but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets when you
> highlight something else.  I'm not aware of a way to access it yet. 
> I've looked for it but can't find it.  To be honest, I wish there was a
> way to clear it, wherever it is.  I clear my KDE clipboard that is on my
> desktop pretty regular.  I always do so after copying passwords or
> something important. 

xclip manipulates both the standard and X selection clipboards. It works
with the X selection clipboard by default, so you shold be able to clear
it with

echo "" | xclip

> I'm wondering if that clipboard is a part of Konsole itself.  I've never
> seen anything in the KDE clipboard that I just highlighted in Konsole. 

It's part of X.

> I could use Bitwarden to generate passwords but then I'd need to copy it
> to my regular clipboard to get it to the Konsole.  I wanted to avoid
> that.

Bitwarden has an option to clear the clipboard after a configurable time,
much like KeePassXC.

Naturally, if you are really paranoid about security, you will run your
own Vaultwarden server to avoid the passwords ever going anywhere out of
your control.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Humpty Dumpty DOS - Just a shell of himself.


pgpbOlXdjFiN7.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> Am Tue, May 14, 2024 at 06:28:17AM -0500 schrieb Dale:
>> Howdy,
>> […]
>> remember either, or write notes to remember them.  I also wanted to
>> avoid the desktop copy and paste, or clipboard, mechanism.  I'm not sure
>> how that data is stored in the clipboard and how good it is at erasing
>> it when I clear it.
> The mark-and-middleclick you describe further down is the very same as the 
> “normal” clipboard. It is just accessed differently.
>

I thought that too.  I highlighted some text in a Konsole and then
looked in the KDE clipboard, what I highlighted was not there.  It
wasn't there after I pasted it either.  It goes to a clipboard somewhere
but it appears it only remembers one entry then forgets when you
highlight something else.  I'm not aware of a way to access it yet. 
I've looked for it but can't find it.  To be honest, I wish there was a
way to clear it, wherever it is.  I clear my KDE clipboard that is on my
desktop pretty regular.  I always do so after copying passwords or
something important. 

I'm wondering if that clipboard is a part of Konsole itself.  I've never
seen anything in the KDE clipboard that I just highlighted in Konsole. 
Now if I highlight and right click to copy, that goes to the KDE
clipboard as expected.  I'm not sure where the Konsole clipboard info
goes. 

>> First, I needed to generate a password.  I googled, a lot.  I had
>> trouble finding a way to generate the type of passwords I wanted but I
>> finally found one.
> Care to elaborate regarding the “password you wanted”? There is the obvious 
> pwgen, which can generate passwords with given character sets and length. 
> Keepass can do this, too, so I assume, Bitwarden (which you use) has a 
> similar function.
>
> And if you don’t like parts of the generated PW, keep the part you like, 
> generate new and pick the part you like again. Or just let pwgen generate a 
> big bunch and pick what you like best from the output.
>

I could use Bitwarden to generate passwords but then I'd need to copy it
to my regular clipboard to get it to the Konsole.  I wanted to avoid
that.  Bitwarden is a awesome tool.  It's like LastPasss but open
source.  When LastPass got bought and started limiting basic features, I
switched to Bitwarden.  Honestly, I wish I had started with Bitwarden to
begin with. 

I like my passwords to have all sorts of characters in as random a order
as possible.  Most all password tools do a good job of this.  The thing
I like about the method I posted, I can control exactly what characters
are used, individually.  I had a website once that allowed some
characters, like above the number keys on older keyboards, but didn't
allow a few odd ones.  LastPass and Bitwarden have the option to turn
them off or on as a set but not individually.  Luckily that website
wasn't something sensitive like a bank or anything but still, some
websites do limit what can be used and some are a bit weird.  With the
command I use, I can easily, in a one time way, leave out anything that
I need to but leave the rest. 


>> […]
>> Now that I have a password, how do I keep track of them?  I did some
>> more searching.  I wanted something that was command line not GUI. 
>> After all, I have BitWarden for websites and such already.  Thing is,
>> it's GUI since it is a Firefox add-on.  I'd need to use the clipboard to
>> copy and paste.  I want to avoid that remember?  I also wanted something
>> that is on its own, separate from my main password tool BitWarden.  I
>> found kpcli in the tree.
> I didn’t know about kpcli and it is not available in Arch. So I looked it 
> up. Turns out it is a non-graphical Keepass client (that’s what the kp 
> stands for, after all).
>
> Interestingly, there is also a bitwarden CLI client.
>
> Did you know Keepass (the graphical one) has an autotype feature? This means 
> that it simulates the pressing of keys, so it bypasses the clipboard 
> entirely. Another advantage of that is that you can set up custom key 
> sequences in the autotype field, so you can for example say “first enter the 
> username, then press enter, then wait for a second, then enter the password 
> and press enter again.” Useful for sites that use a dynamic login screen 
> with animations or non-standard input fields.
>

I didn't know KeePass had that feature in the GUI version.  I did know
kpcli was based on KeePass in some way tho.  I read that somewhere. 
Kpcli just fit the need I had and was in the tree to install.  Now that
I got it setup, it does what I want, no need switching.  ;-)


>> Then I needed some way to handle if the password file kpcli uses got
>> lost or damaged.  If I were to lose that file, all drives and the data
>> on them is lost.  I'd lose everything because there is no way to
>> remember the password.
> The obvious answer is: backup – encrypted or not. ;-)
> My Keepass database is a simple file in my home that is backed up together 
> with all the other home files by Borg. Meaning I 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Wols Lists]

On 02/05/2024 11:46, Peter Humphrey wrote:

When I started using Linux, the received wisdom was to keep a separate /boot,
and leave it unmounted during normal operation. The idea was that a successful
hacker would not, supposedly, be able to corrupt the kernel ready for a reboot
into their system.


And you can't have /boot on your system partition if, like me, you have 
one instance of grub booting into several different OSs or distros ... 
Less so now, but having multiple distros on one system was a popular 
hobbyist pastime!


(One distro's system partition is another distro's data partion :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Wols Lists]

On 02/05/2024 10:35, Michael wrote:

Besides the automation this feature affords, I find it useful to know what a
partition contains without having to mount it.  On GPT labelled disks I make
use both of the Partition Type UUID and the Partition Name.  A quick glance at
the gdisk output and if need be its 'i' option has saved my day from
formatting the wrong partition more than once!  


Iirc from the days of kernel 1.3 and 2.x, the partition type is not used 
- at all - by linux itself. Dunno about other OSs.


As you pointed out, though, it is used by other tools, which use it to 
identify what the partition is *supposed* to be used for. For example, 
auto-assemble with raid.


I'm not sure, but for example I think swap will quite happily let you 
"mount" a non-swap partiton with swap-on. You can format an allegedly 
DOS or NTFS partition with ext, and linux won't care ...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Frank Steinmetzger]

Am Tue, May 14, 2024 at 06:28:17AM -0500 schrieb Dale:
> Howdy,
> […]
> remember either, or write notes to remember them.  I also wanted to
> avoid the desktop copy and paste, or clipboard, mechanism.  I'm not sure
> how that data is stored in the clipboard and how good it is at erasing
> it when I clear it.

The mark-and-middleclick you describe further down is the very same as the 
“normal” clipboard. It is just accessed differently.

> First, I needed to generate a password.  I googled, a lot.  I had
> trouble finding a way to generate the type of passwords I wanted but I
> finally found one.

Care to elaborate regarding the “password you wanted”? There is the obvious 
pwgen, which can generate passwords with given character sets and length. 
Keepass can do this, too, so I assume, Bitwarden (which you use) has a 
similar function.

And if you don’t like parts of the generated PW, keep the part you like, 
generate new and pick the part you like again. Or just let pwgen generate a 
big bunch and pick what you like best from the output.

> […]
> Now that I have a password, how do I keep track of them?  I did some
> more searching.  I wanted something that was command line not GUI. 
> After all, I have BitWarden for websites and such already.  Thing is,
> it's GUI since it is a Firefox add-on.  I'd need to use the clipboard to
> copy and paste.  I want to avoid that remember?  I also wanted something
> that is on its own, separate from my main password tool BitWarden.  I
> found kpcli in the tree.

I didn’t know about kpcli and it is not available in Arch. So I looked it 
up. Turns out it is a non-graphical Keepass client (that’s what the kp 
stands for, after all).

Interestingly, there is also a bitwarden CLI client.

Did you know Keepass (the graphical one) has an autotype feature? This means 
that it simulates the pressing of keys, so it bypasses the clipboard 
entirely. Another advantage of that is that you can set up custom key 
sequences in the autotype field, so you can for example say “first enter the 
username, then press enter, then wait for a second, then enter the password 
and press enter again.” Useful for sites that use a dynamic login screen 
with animations or non-standard input fields.

> Then I needed some way to handle if the password file kpcli uses got
> lost or damaged.  If I were to lose that file, all drives and the data
> on them is lost.  I'd lose everything because there is no way to
> remember the password.

The obvious answer is: backup – encrypted or not. ;-)
My Keepass database is a simple file in my home that is backed up together 
with all the other home files by Borg. Meaning I even have a versioned 
backup of my passwords. Needless to say my backup drives are LUKSed with a 
long passphrase that I have never ever once written down anywhere on paper. 
I’ve been using it for so long now and on several drives, that it is 
ingrained in my brain.

> The kpcli file itself appears to be encrypted. 
> So, it protects itself.  That's good.  I don't need to put the file on
> something that is also encrypted, just copy it to a plain file system as
> it is.  I have a USB stick that I store things on.  Things like drive
> info, what drives go to what volume group, what drive has the OS on it
> etc and the portage world file on it.  I also have some scripts in /root
> that I don't want to lose either so I copy them to the stick as well. 

Be mindful that USB sticks aren’t very reliable. The flash chips in them are 
what is left after quality control deemed them unfit for duty in SSDs (first 
tier) and memory cards (second tier). So always keep several copies, 
possibly on different types of storage media (HDDs, SSDs, optical, whatever).

> Then one important file, my file that contains frequently used
> commands.  It is rather lengthy and is 15 years or more of additions.  I
> copied all that info to a USB stick.  It lives in the fire safe.

TBH, I wouldn’t put all my horses on one USB stick in a fire safe. (Or 
however the saying goes) After a flimsy USB stick with questionable flash 
chips has been subjected to high temperatures for a longer time, chances are 
you may not be able to access its data ever again.

> How I use all this.  I do this in a Konsole, within KDE, which has
> tabs.  Might work on a plain console to tho.  If I need to open a
> encrypted drive, or set of drives, I open kpcli and get it to show the
> password for that drive in one tab.  I then run the little script to
> open and mount that drive in another tab.  When it asks for the
> password, I highlight the password from kpcli tab and then switch tabs
> and middle click to paste the password in.

Since you’ve already scripted most of it, you could possible go the full 
way. Use the HDD’s UUID as key and either store the password in a file that 
is named with the UUID, or in keepass with the UUID as entry title. Then you 
can let the script retrieve the password all by itself without any need for 
copy-pasting – 

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 7:28 AM Dale  wrote:
>> First, I needed to generate a password.
> Honestly, I'd stop right there, and think about WHY you're encrypting
> your disks, and WHY you need a password to decrypt them.  There are
> many use cases and threat models to consider.
>
> I have a whole bunch of encrypted drives on my Ceph cluster, and none
> of them have a traditional "password" and I couldn't tell you what any
> of them are.  They're keys stored in files on the OS drive, and I do
> have a backup of them as well.  I don't have to go looking up anything
> to do anything because the file is referenced in crypttab and so LUKS
> just does its thing during boot.
>
> Obviously anybody who has physical access to the host can decrypt the
> drives.  The OS disks aren't even encrypted.  So why bother? Well, my
> threat model is this - I have huge amounts of data on disks, and disks
> eventually fail, and they're a real pain to wipe, especially if
> they've failed.  With my solution, those physical disks are completely
> unreadable when separated from the OS drive.  There is no risk of
> brute-force attacks as there is no memorable passphrase to crack -
> they're just random keys, so it is a basic brute force attack on AES
> itself.  When things need rebooting I don't need to be present to type
> anything in, and I don't need any fancy TPM-based solutions to make
> that possible either.
>
> The more traditional approach uses memorable passphrases, and for that
> you can use pwgen, or xkcdpass.  Or you can just come up with
> something memorable but not likely to be guessed, with plenty of
> rounds.
>
> The most common approach (outside of Linux) is to use a TPM to manage
> the key with verified boot.  This is possible on Linux, but no distro
> I'm aware of other than maybe ChromeOS does it (and ChromeOS doesn't
> really do it the traditional way).  This lets you have a desktop that
> makes the disk unreadable when separated from the PC, and it can only
> be read if the disk is booted normally.  It is a very elegant
> solution, assuming you trust the security of the TPM, but without
> distro support I probably wouldn't mess with it.  On Windows it is
> very common, and on ChromeOS it isn't even optional - they all do it.
>


My concern, someone breaks into my home and steals my drives, and
computer too.  They get the OS and some general stuff but the stuff I
want to protect others from getting or seeing, they need the password. 
It isn't stored anywhere they can just copy and paste it either.  This
is why I didn't use files for the keys.  If the puter can boot and
decrypt the drives with no input from me, well, there's really no point
in encrypting it to begin with except as you point out in the event of a
drive failure.  As it is now, if I lock my drives or shutdown my puter
and go to town, my data is safe, from whoever may want to access it,
with or without my puter. 

There may not be many who want to go to all this trouble.  There could
be some tho.  I posted for those who would like to have this setup or it
give ideas on a setup that may even work better for their use case. 
This works well for me.  I remember one password.  That's it.  With that
password I can get the passwords, random generated and long ones at
that, and open my drives up.  To anyone else, it may be doable to crack
them but they gonna work for it.  I have no idea why a person would put
in all that effort for data when they don't even know what is there.  If
it was known to be a secret formula for turning lead into gold, I could
get that.  My data, not likely. 

I suspect most don't want to use this method.  That is fine.  Not every
use case is the same and some may not concern themselves over the same
things I do.  If someone does have a need for a method like this, they
have a way to do it.  So far, it's working pretty well.  Given I have
copies of the kpcli in case one goes bad and gets deleted, I think I'm
pretty safe. 

I figure there is few who would use this but I thought it worth posting
given the time and effort I put in researching and figuring out ways to
make it work.  The Linux way is to come up with things and then share to
help others.  I've certainly had people share things with me.  :-D 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 7:28 AM Dale  wrote:
>
> First, I needed to generate a password.

Honestly, I'd stop right there, and think about WHY you're encrypting
your disks, and WHY you need a password to decrypt them.  There are
many use cases and threat models to consider.

I have a whole bunch of encrypted drives on my Ceph cluster, and none
of them have a traditional "password" and I couldn't tell you what any
of them are.  They're keys stored in files on the OS drive, and I do
have a backup of them as well.  I don't have to go looking up anything
to do anything because the file is referenced in crypttab and so LUKS
just does its thing during boot.

Obviously anybody who has physical access to the host can decrypt the
drives.  The OS disks aren't even encrypted.  So why bother? Well, my
threat model is this - I have huge amounts of data on disks, and disks
eventually fail, and they're a real pain to wipe, especially if
they've failed.  With my solution, those physical disks are completely
unreadable when separated from the OS drive.  There is no risk of
brute-force attacks as there is no memorable passphrase to crack -
they're just random keys, so it is a basic brute force attack on AES
itself.  When things need rebooting I don't need to be present to type
anything in, and I don't need any fancy TPM-based solutions to make
that possible either.

The more traditional approach uses memorable passphrases, and for that
you can use pwgen, or xkcdpass.  Or you can just come up with
something memorable but not likely to be guessed, with plenty of
rounds.

The most common approach (outside of Linux) is to use a TPM to manage
the key with verified boot.  This is possible on Linux, but no distro
I'm aware of other than maybe ChromeOS does it (and ChromeOS doesn't
really do it the traditional way).  This lets you have a desktop that
makes the disk unreadable when separated from the PC, and it can only
be read if the disk is booted normally.  It is a very elegant
solution, assuming you trust the security of the TPM, but without
distro support I probably wouldn't mess with it.  On Windows it is
very common, and on ChromeOS it isn't even optional - they all do it.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Encrypted drives, password generation and management howto, guide.

[Dale]

Howdy,

This is more of a howto or rough guide.  As most know, I have several
encrypted hard drives, or sets of hard drives using LVM.  I don't even
know how much data I have stored here at the moment.  I started a thread
a while back about how to come up with and remember passwords.  I got
some pretty good ideas.  Thing is, those come with problems when you
need to have over half a dozen passwords and each needs to be something
that can not be guessed.  I came up with passwords and made little post
it notes with info that helps me remember the passwords.  Thing is, if a
person could figure out what was on the note, then they could crack the
password.  Some people are smart that way.  Online password test tools,
as good or bad as they are, claim it would take centuries or longer to
crack the passwords.  However, that little note that helps me remember
it could also help the person trying to crack it.  So, ever since I been
trying to come up with a new way to do this.  I wanted passwords that
would be virtually impossible to crack but that I didn't have to
remember either, or write notes to remember them.  I also wanted to
avoid the desktop copy and paste, or clipboard, mechanism.  I'm not sure
how that data is stored in the clipboard and how good it is at erasing
it when I clear it.

First, I needed to generate a password.  I googled, a lot.  I had
trouble finding a way to generate the type of passwords I wanted but I
finally found one.  It gives me a lot of control including on what
characters it uses and length.  I can actually change the allowed
characters if something on the receiving end can't use certain
characters.  This is what I found, with a few characters added to the
original command: 

https://www.howtogeek.com/30184/10-ways-to-generate-a-random-password-from-the-command-line/

I added some characters to the list it filters to have even more of
them.  I plan to add all I can, every letter on the keyboard in upper
and lower case, plus any I missed later on.  It generates passwords like
this as shown above:

eg@^04f[C@AvTQRWX242
A!q@wSa5TTE?Z2xg9wX{
]rqC^swC#sAza]24F%9B
CA&?]SD+1#&$rbgwD
T8x@cWaEZc##4WDfd!Qv

It is set to do 20 characters but I sometimes increase that.  I guess
one could go to a huge number if one wanted too.  I'm not sure what the
limit is on cryptsetup but have seen people use files generated by
/dev/random at over 4,000 characters.  That is pretty long!!  Point is,
try to guess one of passwords generated above. 

While typing this, I added some things to the list of allowed characters
in the command above.  You have to leave out the ' or single quote,
since the command uses it.  I also left out the double quote, ", as
well.  New command.

?,.1234567890QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNMqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm'
| head -c 40; echo ""

It generates passwords like this.

{sVao%ezpr<[B[,b$5C8j(
L_7g{JUh39%Da`l!

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 6:35 PM Mark Knecht  > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've looked for a adapter.  I couldn't find one.  That's why I
> connected to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use. 
> Luckily I had a molex to sata adapter.  Do you know what they are
> called so I know what to search for?  I'd buy a dozen or so just to
> have extras laying around.  I just can't find them.  I suspect I'm
> using the wrong search terms.
> > >
> > > Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature?  I'm looking at
> the ASUS Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what
> version of SATA it has or about the PWDIS option.  I assume it doesn't
> have it but assuming means you can be wrong.  I haven't looked at the
> new power supply cables yet.  I've bought ATX style ones recently
> tho.  Look the same as old ones to me.
> > >
> > > Dale
> > >
> > > :-)  :-)
> >
> > I am not sure but I think Molex to SATA Power gets you in the ballpark?
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/Power-Cable-Adapter-Female-8-inch/dp/B07BQFKTG7
> >
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/Duttek-Female-Adapter-Connector-Drives/dp/B09BJ1J24M
> >
> > If these are close then it wouldn't cost a lot to try one out. (<$10)
>
>
> Sorry, I forgot to address your second question.
>
> It is my understanding - good or bad I'll leave it to you - that newer
> motherboards
> are moving toward drive power supplied through the motherboard and not
> through our old-style power supply cables. I don't think this is in
> the market
> yet in any big way, but when it arrives it would allow PWDIS to be
> controlled through
> software which then makes it easier to do 'hot swap' because the drive
> isn't hot
> when power is disabled. I suspect this is more of a server farm type
> issue and 
> desktop machine users wouldn't be doing this because the form factor
> of the 
> machine itself isn't set up for that. However if you were to get some
> sort of a 
> drive cage which you connected to using wider SATA specifications then
> you could
> disable power to one drive and swap it out without having to power the
> machine down.
>
> All supposition on my part. I'll leave it to you to dig deeper if you
> care. (I don't !)
>
> Best wish, good luck and happy hunting,
> Mark


I've got some of the cables like in your links.  I was hoping they made
a little short thing like in your second link that I can plug into the
drive then plug a SATA power connector to but it doesn't connect pin 3
to anything.  It stays SATA basically, no molex needed.  To be honest, I
only have 4 wires on my power cable going to the SATA connector.  The
ones I see with the 5th wire are the ones with PWDIS.  Thing is, I'd
don't know how it is connected inside the connector.  From my
understanding, the 5v wire is connected to several pins including 1
through 3.  That's what makes it not work.  I think.  That may vary from
one power supply maker to another and may even vary between models of
the same maker. 

In a way, that sounds interesting about the new way.  For those who like
to show off their rigs, they would like that because it would result in
less cable clutter.  To be honest, I'm not against the PWDIS feature. 
For some use cases, it is a good idea.  It just should have been made
backward compatible.  Right now, I have one case with about 10 drives in
it.  I'd like to be able to disable a drive before unplugging it.  If my
system supported PWDIS, I'd sure use it and be glad to have it.  My new
Fractal case holds 18 drives I think.  I can add cages which may make it
hold even more drives.  Having the PWDIS feature would be nice.  I could
unmount a drive, disable it, then unplug and remove it and be almost the
same as doing so when the system is shutdown completely.  It's a good
idea, just needed to be implemented better. 

For those following this, the hard drive made it back to the seller. 
When they tested the drive, it was bad.  They got the same as I did in
the very old rig with the molex to SATA cable.  I suspect it was a drive
with the PWDIS feature and it turned out it was also bad.  I did order
another drive.  I ordered one I got before that works but I also
included a note that if the drive has the PWDIS feature, to cancel the
order and let me know what drives they carry that don't have that feature. 

I just wish there was a very easy way to find out which drives have the
PWDIS feature and which ones don't.  I'm beginning to wonder if there
really is a way other than plugging it up and seeing of it comes on. 

All this because they didn't make something backward compatible.  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[mad . scientist . at . large]

I have a lot of drives like that.  Simplest solution is to cut the orange wire 
on the drive power cable.  Only down side is that some ssd may require the 3.3V 
power so you might not want to modify all the power cables.  I just had to do 
this so my sas drives would spin up.  Before I did it the drives didn't even 
show up in the bios.  (and I just got 10 of these used, they are going into a 
raid 6 array+spares).  I've been making this mod for over 10 years.

--"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their 
political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political 
democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." 
Tommy Douglas




May 9, 2024, 15:12 by rdalek1...@gmail.com:

> Dale wrote:
>
>>
>> Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
>> sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
>> that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
>> drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
>> bulk since they putting them in large systems. 
>>
>> Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
>> had one of these things. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>>
>
>
> I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
> with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
> about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
> is what I'm looking at. 
>
> https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf
>
> Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> missing it?  Or is there no way to really know? 
>
> Thanks. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 6:35 PM Mark Knecht  wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > I've looked for a adapter.  I couldn't find one.  That's why I
connected to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use.  Luckily
I had a molex to sata adapter.  Do you know what they are called so I know
what to search for?  I'd buy a dozen or so just to have extras laying
around.  I just can't find them.  I suspect I'm using the wrong search
terms.
> >
> > Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature?  I'm looking at the
ASUS Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what version of
SATA it has or about the PWDIS option.  I assume it doesn't have it but
assuming means you can be wrong.  I haven't looked at the new power supply
cables yet.  I've bought ATX style ones recently tho.  Look the same as old
ones to me.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
> I am not sure but I think Molex to SATA Power gets you in the ballpark?
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Power-Cable-Adapter-Female-8-inch/dp/B07BQFKTG7
>
>
https://www.amazon.com/Duttek-Female-Adapter-Connector-Drives/dp/B09BJ1J24M
>
> If these are close then it wouldn't cost a lot to try one out. (<$10)

>
Sorry, I forgot to address your second question.

It is my understanding - good or bad I'll leave it to you - that newer
motherboards
are moving toward drive power supplied through the motherboard and not
through our old-style power supply cables. I don't think this is in the
market
yet in any big way, but when it arrives it would allow PWDIS to be
controlled through
software which then makes it easier to do 'hot swap' because the drive
isn't hot
when power is disabled. I suspect this is more of a server farm type issue
and
desktop machine users wouldn't be doing this because the form factor of the
machine itself isn't set up for that. However if you were to get some sort
of a
drive cage which you connected to using wider SATA specifications then you
could
disable power to one drive and swap it out without having to power the
machine down.

All supposition on my part. I'll leave it to you to dig deeper if you care.
(I don't !)

Best wish, good luck and happy hunting,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Mark Knecht]

>
>
> I've looked for a adapter.  I couldn't find one.  That's why I connected
to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use.  Luckily I had a
molex to sata adapter.  Do you know what they are called so I know what to
search for?  I'd buy a dozen or so just to have extras laying around.  I
just can't find them.  I suspect I'm using the wrong search terms.
>
> Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature?  I'm looking at the ASUS
Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what version of SATA
it has or about the PWDIS option.  I assume it doesn't have it but assuming
means you can be wrong.  I haven't looked at the new power supply cables
yet.  I've bought ATX style ones recently tho.  Look the same as old ones
to me.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

I am not sure but I think Molex to SATA Power gets you in the ballpark?

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Cable-Adapter-Female-8-inch/dp/B07BQFKTG7

https://www.amazon.com/Duttek-Female-Adapter-Connector-Drives/dp/B09BJ1J24M

If these are close then it wouldn't cost a lot to try one out. (<$10)

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 4:31 PM Dale  > wrote:
> >
> > Dale wrote:
> >
> > Mark Knecht wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale  > wrote:
> > 
> > > Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> > > doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> > > missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?
> >
> > I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
> > don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.
> >
> > I have done NO online research to take this with less than a
> > grain of salt.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > Your reply gave me a clue.  I did a search for sata in the docs and
> found this for both drives I linked to in other post.
> >
> >
> > Exos X18 SATA drives incorporate connectors which enable users to
> hot plug these drives in accordance with the
> > Serial ATA Revision 3.3 specification.
> >
> >
> > I suspect that means it has the PWDIS pin.  You agree?  If you open
> the links to pdf docs in other reply, search for "Hot-Plug
> compatibility" and see what it says.  It was the second hit for me.
> >
> > Why can't they label those drives with something that makes it
> clear.  Print 'SATA V3.3', 'hardware reset enabled' or something that
> makes it easy instead of sticking it in a 50 something page document. 
> At least we have the "find" feature on most pdf viewers.  Another
> option, throw a adapter in the box for those who can't have that feature.
> >
> > Looks like both drives I'm looking at might not work for me.  My
> goal in this thread, figure out what to look for so that I avoid
> buying a drive that don't work.  I got the difference in the power
> cable at least.  Now to figure it out without being able to see the drive.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > I thought of something else.  I looked at drives I bought in the
> past.  I have a model ST16000NM000J and it works but it says it is
> SATA v3.3.  So, saying it is SATA v3.3 doesn't distinguish between
> having or not having the PWDIS feature.  It just means it is possible.
> >
> > Crap.  I thought I was onto something.  :(
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
> >
> > P. S.  Since I have one of those already, I'll buy that one again. 
> ROFL
>
> Dale,
>    You have raised a number of issues. I will speak as a retired Silicon 
> Valley engineer who worked on IEEE and PCI-related specifications.
> (PCI-X, 1394b and a few things that never made it to market)
>
> 1) Probably most important, the disk drive manufacturers are not 
> focused on those of us who fiddle with old hardware. They are 
> designing and developing products for the mass market which 
> basically means new machines. These drives do into data farms
> and new computers. 
>

This is very true.  If they were going to change the SATA power
connector pin assignment, they should have made it backward compatible. 
It would be easy enough.  Pin high, as it is when hooked to a old cable,
enables the drive.  Pin low disables or resets the drive.  That way no
matter what you connect it to, it works.  Why they didn't think of that,
I'd think it is about making money.  Just a thought.


> 2) The next issue is whether a new SATA-3.3 drive is even intended
> to work in a machine running old SATA spec. In the case of these
> SATA-3.3 drives there is a kluge connector/adapter cable that hooks
> to your existing SATA controller but has a PC power supply dongle
> so that the SATA-3.3 drive's PWDIS pin is 'hopefully' driven
> correctly. Whether that works does depend on the timing of your
> motherboard and the power supply, but it 'hopefully' works.
>
>    I don't know if this information is going to be helpful to your 
> immediate situation but possibly it will help you going forward
> when you are considering upgrading an old machine vs what
> I have done a couple of times is to purchase a new or used
> low-end motherboard so that my peripheral choices were 
> easier. (Such as now all of my DNS and Pi-Hole stuff running
> on an RP-5 vs an old x86-64 machine.)
>
> Best wishes and good luck,
> Mark


I've looked for a adapter.  I couldn't find one.  That's why I connected
to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use.  Luckily I had
a molex to sata adapter.  Do you know what they are called so I know
what to search for?  I'd buy a dozen or so just to have extras laying
around.  I just can't find them.  I suspect I'm using the wrong search
terms. 

Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature?  I'm looking at the ASUS
Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what version of
SATA it has or about the PWDIS option.  I assume it doesn't have it but
assuming means you can be wrong.  I haven't looked at the new power
supply cables yet.  I've bought ATX style ones recently tho.  Look the
same as old ones to me. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 4:31 PM Dale  wrote:
>
> Dale wrote:
>
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale  wrote:
> 
> > Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> > doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> > missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?
>
> I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
> don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.
>
> I have done NO online research to take this with less than a
> grain of salt.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Your reply gave me a clue.  I did a search for sata in the docs and found
this for both drives I linked to in other post.
>
>
> Exos X18 SATA drives incorporate connectors which enable users to hot
plug these drives in accordance with the
> Serial ATA Revision 3.3 specification.
>
>
> I suspect that means it has the PWDIS pin.  You agree?  If you open the
links to pdf docs in other reply, search for "Hot-Plug compatibility" and
see what it says.  It was the second hit for me.
>
> Why can't they label those drives with something that makes it clear.
Print 'SATA V3.3', 'hardware reset enabled' or something that makes it easy
instead of sticking it in a 50 something page document.  At least we have
the "find" feature on most pdf viewers.  Another option, throw a adapter in
the box for those who can't have that feature.
>
> Looks like both drives I'm looking at might not work for me.  My goal in
this thread, figure out what to look for so that I avoid buying a drive
that don't work.  I got the difference in the power cable at least.  Now to
figure it out without being able to see the drive.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
>
> I thought of something else.  I looked at drives I bought in the past.  I
have a model ST16000NM000J and it works but it says it is SATA v3.3.  So,
saying it is SATA v3.3 doesn't distinguish between having or not having the
PWDIS feature.  It just means it is possible.
>
> Crap.  I thought I was onto something.  :(
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
> P. S.  Since I have one of those already, I'll buy that one again.  ROFL

Dale,
   You have raised a number of issues. I will speak as a retired Silicon
Valley engineer who worked on IEEE and PCI-related specifications.
(PCI-X, 1394b and a few things that never made it to market)

1) Probably most important, the disk drive manufacturers are not
focused on those of us who fiddle with old hardware. They are
designing and developing products for the mass market which
basically means new machines. These drives do into data farms
and new computers.

2) The next issue is whether a new SATA-3.3 drive is even intended
to work in a machine running old SATA spec. In the case of these
SATA-3.3 drives there is a kluge connector/adapter cable that hooks
to your existing SATA controller but has a PC power supply dongle
so that the SATA-3.3 drive's PWDIS pin is 'hopefully' driven
correctly. Whether that works does depend on the timing of your
motherboard and the power supply, but it 'hopefully' works.

   I don't know if this information is going to be helpful to your
immediate situation but possibly it will help you going forward
when you are considering upgrading an old machine vs what
I have done a couple of times is to purchase a new or used
low-end motherboard so that my peripheral choices were
easier. (Such as now all of my DNS and Pi-Hole stuff running
on an RP-5 vs an old x86-64 machine.)

Best wishes and good luck,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale > > wrote:
>> 
>> > Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
>> > doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
>> > missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?
>>
>> I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
>> don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.
>>
>> I have done NO online research to take this with less than a 
>> grain of salt.
>>
>> Mark
>
>
> Your reply gave me a clue.  I did a search for sata in the docs and
> found this for both drives I linked to in other post.
>
>
> Exos X18 SATA drives incorporate connectors which enable users to hot
> plug these drives in accordance with the
> Serial ATA Revision 3.3 specification. 
>
>
> I suspect that means it has the PWDIS pin.  You agree?  If you open
> the links to pdf docs in other reply, search for "Hot-Plug
> compatibility" and see what it says.  It was the second hit for me. 
>
> Why can't they label those drives with something that makes it clear. 
> Print 'SATA V3.3', 'hardware reset enabled' or something that makes it
> easy instead of sticking it in a 50 something page document.  At least
> we have the "find" feature on most pdf viewers.  Another option, throw
> a adapter in the box for those who can't have that feature. 
>
> Looks like both drives I'm looking at might not work for me.  My goal
> in this thread, figure out what to look for so that I avoid buying a
> drive that don't work.  I got the difference in the power cable at
> least.  Now to figure it out without being able to see the drive.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 


I thought of something else.  I looked at drives I bought in the past. 
I have a model ST16000NM000J and it works but it says it is SATA v3.3. 
So, saying it is SATA v3.3 doesn't distinguish between having or not
having the PWDIS feature.  It just means it is possible.

Crap.  I thought I was onto something.  :(

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S.  Since I have one of those already, I'll buy that one again.  ROFL 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale  > wrote:
> 
> > Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> > doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> > missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?
>
> I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
> don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.
>
> I have done NO online research to take this with less than a 
> grain of salt.
>
> Mark


Your reply gave me a clue.  I did a search for sata in the docs and
found this for both drives I linked to in other post.


Exos X18 SATA drives incorporate connectors which enable users to hot
plug these drives in accordance with the
Serial ATA Revision 3.3 specification. 


I suspect that means it has the PWDIS pin.  You agree?  If you open the
links to pdf docs in other reply, search for "Hot-Plug compatibility"
and see what it says.  It was the second hit for me. 

Why can't they label those drives with something that makes it clear. 
Print 'SATA V3.3', 'hardware reset enabled' or something that makes it
easy instead of sticking it in a 50 something page document.  At least
we have the "find" feature on most pdf viewers.  Another option, throw a
adapter in the box for those who can't have that feature. 

Looks like both drives I'm looking at might not work for me.  My goal in
this thread, figure out what to look for so that I avoid buying a drive
that don't work.  I got the difference in the power cable at least.  Now
to figure it out without being able to see the drive.

Thoughts?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale  wrote:

> Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?

I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.

I have done NO online research to take this with less than a
grain of salt.

Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Dale  wrote:
>> I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
>> with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
>> about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
>> is what I'm looking at.
>>
>> https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf
>>
>> Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
>> doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
>> missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?
> I think it would be labeled as such.  That is for a genuine retail
> version of the drive with retail labeling.
>
> So if you get the drive and it has the pretty Exos logo and green
> colors and the model number that matches the datasheet and all that
> stuff, then it probably won't have issues.
>
> However, if you're buying something off ebay, and the drive just has a
> plain white label, and a model number that doesn't actually match the
> datasheet, but some random webpage or reddit post assures you that it
> is the same thing, well, it probably is the same thing, but it might
> very well have that power issue.
>
> Those shucked drives generally come from USB enclosures, and the drive
> on the inside might be a rebranded Exos with alternative firmware/etc,
> but the label isn't going to actually say that, and the package will
> say "EasyStore USB Drive" or whatever it is sold as.  If you use it
> the way it is sold, then you again won't have issues since its
> internal USB HBA will do the right thing.  It is just that when you
> rip open the box that all bets are off.
>
> The actual drives sold for enterprise use generally aren't sold in
> retail packaging as I understand it.  To get one of those officially
> you need to buy them through a server vendor or some other
> enterprise-oriented partner, who probably has a nice sales person who
> will treat you to a free lunch while you talk about the PWDIS
> requirements of the $10M pallet of drives you're about to buy.
>


I found this. 

https://www.seagate.com/www-content/product-content/enterprise-hdd-fam/exos-x-16/en-us/docs/100845789j.pdf

If you scroll down to page 29, or search for Table 11, it says it has a
3.3V for pin 1 to pin 3.  Does that indicate it has the PWDIS feature? 
I'm buying these from a company that has server in the name.  I buy
drives of this type because of the way I use it.  It runs 24/7. 
Downtime is minimal here.  This is a link to the drives I'm looking at. 
I'm not sure which is best to be honest.  Opinions??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124627725410

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304194684486

I'm interested in your thoughts on the PWDIS and if one of those drives
would be better for my use case.  Biggest thing, runs 24/7. 

Oh, is there a adapter that I can buy that fixes this?  I did a ebay
search but didn't find anything.  Maybe I used the wrong terms.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S.  I'm considering using SAS controllers again.  Do you have links
that explains how drives are connected and such?  I'll likely continue
to use SATA drives since I have so many but may start buying SAS
drives.  I think both can be used depending on the cable.  From what
I've read, there is more than one way for a SAS controller to work. 
It's confusing at times. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Dale  wrote:
>
> I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
> with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
> about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
> is what I'm looking at.
>
> https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf
>
> Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
> doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
> missing it?  Or is there no way to really know?

I think it would be labeled as such.  That is for a genuine retail
version of the drive with retail labeling.

So if you get the drive and it has the pretty Exos logo and green
colors and the model number that matches the datasheet and all that
stuff, then it probably won't have issues.

However, if you're buying something off ebay, and the drive just has a
plain white label, and a model number that doesn't actually match the
datasheet, but some random webpage or reddit post assures you that it
is the same thing, well, it probably is the same thing, but it might
very well have that power issue.

Those shucked drives generally come from USB enclosures, and the drive
on the inside might be a rebranded Exos with alternative firmware/etc,
but the label isn't going to actually say that, and the package will
say "EasyStore USB Drive" or whatever it is sold as.  If you use it
the way it is sold, then you again won't have issues since its
internal USB HBA will do the right thing.  It is just that when you
rip open the box that all bets are off.

The actual drives sold for enterprise use generally aren't sold in
retail packaging as I understand it.  To get one of those officially
you need to buy them through a server vendor or some other
enterprise-oriented partner, who probably has a nice sales person who
will treat you to a free lunch while you talk about the PWDIS
requirements of the $10M pallet of drives you're about to buy.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
>
> Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
> sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
> that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
> drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
> bulk since they putting them in large systems. 
>
> Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
> had one of these things. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>


I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
is what I'm looking at. 

https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf

Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it?  Or is there no way to really know? 

Thanks. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] PERL_FEATURES

[Helmut Jarausch]

Many thanks, that helped a lot!
Now I have set only those features in the PERL_FEATURES entry that were  
installed before -
the warning has gone and I hoped the correct version of perl is  
installed now.

Helmut


On 05/07/2024 08:29:28 PM, Jack wrote:

On 2024.05.07 12:33, Helmut Jarausch wrote:

Hi,

according to the NEWS from today one has to set PERL_FEATURES in  
/etc/portage/make.conf.

But how to do that?

I've tried

PERL_FEATURES="debug ithreads quadmath"

but emerging  dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3  I get


 * As of dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3, the useflags debug, ithreads,  
quadmath move into
 * a use-expand variable PERL_FEATURES, which should be set globally  
in make.conf.

 * It appears that you have not set this variable properly yet.

Many thanks for hint,
Helmut


The section of the ebuild that decides whether or not to issue that  
warning is:


pkg_pretend() {
if \
		 (   use perl_features_ithreads && has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_ithreads && has_version  
'		 (   use perl_features_quadmath && has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_quadmath && has_version  
'		 (   use perl_features_debug&& has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_debug&& has_version  
'
then
 (issue the warning)

As I read it (which may well be wrong) it is looking to see whether  
the value for each of the three items is the same by the old use flag  
and by the new PERL_FEATURES.   Check how those three use flags are  
set for -r2 and that the value for PERL_FEATURES for -r3 matches for  
each.

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 6:04 AM Michael  wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 7 May 2024 08:50:26 BST Dale wrote:
>>> I'm aware of what it is and the cable part.  I was curious what it looks
>>> like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
>>> disabled.  From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
>>> up at all.
>> I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive 
>> receives
>> voltage on pin 3 it powers down.  This requires a MoBo and firmware which
>> supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.
> I have had these drives.  If the drive is connected to many ATX power
> supplies via a standard cable, the drive simply will not be detected
> by the computer.  With some power supplies it will work fine.  It all
> depends on whether the power supply follows the original SATA spec, or
> was designed to be compatible with enterprise drives which use the
> revised spec, which isn't backwards compatible (I don't know who the
> genius was who had that idea).
>
> In order to actually toggle the reset line you need SOMETHING able to
> switch the line in-between the drive and the PSU.  That might be a
> motherboard (especially with the newer trend towards running all the
> power through the motherboard), or some other accessory card.  Unless
> the HBA provides the power it won't be there.
>
> However, you don't need any fancy hardware for the drive to just work
> - that is only needed to send the hardware reset to the drive.  All
> you need is to not have that pin powered.  That just means the right
> power supply, the right cable, the right adapter, or some improvised
> solution (tape over the pin is a common one).
>
> In any case, if the pin is the problem, the drive simply won't be
> detected.  Your SATA issues are due to something else.  It might be a
> bad drive, an incompatibility (maybe the drive isn't in the
> smartmontools database yet), or maybe an issue with the HBA (for USB
> HBAs in particular you often need to pass command line parameters as
> there apparently isn't a standard way to pass these commands over
> USB).  I doubt the power line is your problem.
>
> As far as shucked drives go - that is typically indicated by the
> label/model.  If it isn't branded in any way it may have been shucked.
> That shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't have the power issue
> - the drive might simply be bad.
>


So, since the drive wasn't seen at all on my main rig or the NAS box,
with a straight sata power connector, then it likely has the PWDIS pin. 
On those two rigs, the drive wasn't seen at all not even in the BIOS. 
Since it was seen on the old Dell rig with a molex  sata adapter but
SMART spit out a lot of errors, then the drive is bad.  Now that makes
sense and was kinda what I was thinking but not sure about.  Not only
did I get a drive with the PWDIS feature, I got a bad drive as well. 
While the box had no damage at all, it doesn't mean it didn't get hit or
dropped and was damaged or went bad some other way. 

My take on this for future reference.  If a drive isn't seen at all even
by BIOS, either the drive is completely dead or it has the PWDIS feature. 

Oh, I wonder to about the genius who forgot to make this new feature
backward compatible.  I hope someone Gibbs smacks him real good.  Maybe
twice. 

Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
bulk since they putting them in large systems. 

Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
had one of these things. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] PERL_FEATURES

[Jack]

On 2024.05.07 12:33, Helmut Jarausch wrote:

Hi,

according to the NEWS from today one has to set PERL_FEATURES in  
/etc/portage/make.conf.

But how to do that?

I've tried

PERL_FEATURES="debug ithreads quadmath"

but emerging  dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3  I get


 * As of dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3, the useflags debug, ithreads,  
quadmath move into
 * a use-expand variable PERL_FEATURES, which should be set globally  
in make.conf.

 * It appears that you have not set this variable properly yet.

Many thanks for hint,
Helmut


The section of the ebuild that decides whether or not to issue that  
warning is:


pkg_pretend() {
if \
		 (   use perl_features_ithreads && has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_ithreads && has_version  
'		 (   use perl_features_quadmath && has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_quadmath && has_version  
'		 (   use perl_features_debug&& has_version  
'		 ( ! use perl_features_debug&& has_version  
'
then
 (issue the warning)

As I read it (which may well be wrong) it is looking to see whether the  
value for each of the three items is the same by the old use flag and  
by the new PERL_FEATURES.   Check how those three use flags are set for  
-r2 and that the value for PERL_FEATURES for -r3 matches for each.

[gentoo-user] PERL_FEATURES

[Helmut Jarausch]

Hi,

according to the NEWS from today one has to set PERL_FEATURES in  
/etc/portage/make.conf.

But how to do that?

I've tried

PERL_FEATURES="debug ithreads quadmath"

but emerging  dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3  I get


 * As of dev-lang/perl-5.38.2-r3, the useflags debug, ithreads,  
quadmath move into
 * a use-expand variable PERL_FEATURES, which should be set globally  
in make.conf.

 * It appears that you have not set this variable properly yet.

Many thanks for hint,
Helmut

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 at 15:37, Neil Bothwick  wrote:

> On Tue, 7 May 2024 13:22:47 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
>
> > > Yes, of course.  When I said "emerge -c doesn't clean it"  I meant
> > > "emerge
> > -c" (without arguments). I know how to unmerge a package, which in this
> > particular case I should have done years ago, but didn't, and forgot
> > about it.
>
> Right, so we were talking at cross purposes. Apologies for the line noise.
>
> No problem. Cheers

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 13:22:47 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:

> > Yes, of course.  When I said "emerge -c doesn't clean it"  I meant
> > "emerge  
> -c" (without arguments). I know how to unmerge a package, which in this
> particular case I should have done years ago, but didn't, and forgot
> about it.

Right, so we were talking at cross purposes. Apologies for the line noise.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

without C people would code in Basi, Pasal and Obol


pgpGh2LN46Zaj.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 at 13:10, Neil Bothwick  wrote:

> On Tue, 7 May 2024 11:32:43 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
>
>
>
> Files in @world should only be wanted because you put them in there, so
> you should be able to remove them.
>
> Yes, of course.  When I said "emerge -c doesn't clean it"  I meant "emerge
-c" (without arguments). I know how to unmerge a package, which in this
particular case I should have done years ago, but didn't, and forgot about
it.

Jorge

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 11:32:43 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:

> > > I seem to remember I installed a long time ago. It is in the world
> > > file, hence emerge -c wouldn't clean it. I don't have csh but think
> > > I had it  
> >
> > emerge -c will remove packages that are in @world. It was probably
> > also a dependency of something else when you tried before.
> >
> Hmmm... This  would seem to contradict the man page. 

From man emerge

   --depclean, -c 
   Cleans the system by removing packages that are not
   associated with explicitly merged packages. Depclean works by
   creating the full dependency tree from the @world set, then
   comparing  it to installed packages. Packages installed, but not
   part of the dependency tree, will be uninstalled by depclean.

It is a little ambiguous in that does the dependency tree from the world
set include the world set itself?

> How would emerge -c  
> decide which packages in the world file were unwanted? Maybe you're
> thinking of slotted packages?

No, just tried it. Pick a file from @world and emerge -cpv it.

[root@phoucgh ~ 0]% grep x11vnc /var/lib/portage/world
x11-misc/x11vnc
[root@phoucgh ~ 0]% emerge -cpv x11vnc

Calculating dependencies... done!
>>> Calculating removal order...

>>> These are the packages that would be unmerged:

 x11-misc/x11vnc
selected: 0.9.16-r8 
   protected: none 
 omitted: none 

All selected packages: =x11-misc/x11vnc-0.9.16-r8

>>> 'Selected' packages are slated for removal.
>>> 'Protected' and 'omitted' packages will not be removed.

Packages installed:   2083
Packages in world:350
Packages in system:   49
Required packages:2082
Number to remove: 1

Files in @world should only be wanted because you put them in there, so
you should be able to remove them.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"What I need is a list of specific unknown problems we will encounter."


pgpJ1zRxuqJO9.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 6:04 AM Michael  wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, 7 May 2024 08:50:26 BST Dale wrote:
> >
> > I'm aware of what it is and the cable part.  I was curious what it looks
> > like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
> > disabled.  From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
> > up at all.
>
> I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive receives
> voltage on pin 3 it powers down.  This requires a MoBo and firmware which
> supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.

I have had these drives.  If the drive is connected to many ATX power
supplies via a standard cable, the drive simply will not be detected
by the computer.  With some power supplies it will work fine.  It all
depends on whether the power supply follows the original SATA spec, or
was designed to be compatible with enterprise drives which use the
revised spec, which isn't backwards compatible (I don't know who the
genius was who had that idea).

In order to actually toggle the reset line you need SOMETHING able to
switch the line in-between the drive and the PSU.  That might be a
motherboard (especially with the newer trend towards running all the
power through the motherboard), or some other accessory card.  Unless
the HBA provides the power it won't be there.

However, you don't need any fancy hardware for the drive to just work
- that is only needed to send the hardware reset to the drive.  All
you need is to not have that pin powered.  That just means the right
power supply, the right cable, the right adapter, or some improvised
solution (tape over the pin is a common one).

In any case, if the pin is the problem, the drive simply won't be
detected.  Your SATA issues are due to something else.  It might be a
bad drive, an incompatibility (maybe the drive isn't in the
smartmontools database yet), or maybe an issue with the HBA (for USB
HBAs in particular you often need to pass command line parameters as
there apparently isn't a standard way to pass these commands over
USB).  I doubt the power line is your problem.

As far as shucked drives go - that is typically indicated by the
label/model.  If it isn't branded in any way it may have been shucked.
That shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't have the power issue
- the drive might simply be bad.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 at 10:36, Neil Bothwick  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 May 2024 16:37:24 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
>
> >
> > I seem to remember I installed a long time ago. It is in the world file,
> > hence emerge -c wouldn't clean it. I don't have csh but think I had it
>
> emerge -c will remove packages that are in @world. It was probably also a
> dependency of something else when you tried before.
>
> Hmmm... This  would seem to contradict the man page. How would emerge -c
decide which packages in the world file were unwanted? Maybe you're
thinking of slotted packages?

Jorge

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Michael]

On Tuesday, 7 May 2024 08:50:26 BST Dale wrote:
> William Kenworthy wrote:
> > See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable
> > 
> > BillK
> 
> I'm aware of what it is and the cable part.  I was curious what it looks
> like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
> disabled.  From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
> up at all.  I've seen some claim it shows up but you can't access it. 
> I've read different explanations of what the drive does and maybe it
> varies from one maker to another.  What I was hoping for, someone on
> this list has connected a drive with that pin disabling the drive and
> can confirm what I posted is what it looks like or explain what the
> system does when one is connected. 
> 
> When I connected that drive to my NAS box, it was very slow to go
> through the BIOS post and where it usually lists the connected drives,
> only the drive with the OS showed up.  When connected to the older Dell
> rig, it booted up normally.  It doesn't list connected drives like the
> NAS box does.  It did show up in /proc/partitions.  The SMART command
> showed a different story.  It makes it look like the drive has power but
> may not be spinning up.  It can get the info such as model number,
> serial number, capacity and other info but can't read the SMART data,
> which I assume is written to the platter part of the drive.  I'm not
> sure on that tho.  What I don't know, is that because of the PWDIS pin
> or has nothing to do with it. 
> 
> As it is, the seller agreed to take the drive back.  If the seller says
> the drive works for them, I guess it has that PWDIS feature.  If it
> doesn't work for them, just a bad drive, perhaps damaged in shipping or
> something.  I'm just curious as to how a drive behaves when it has that
> PWDIS pin and the drive is disabled. 
> 
> I did notice in the pic on your link that the new power connector has 5
> wires.  It has the PWDIS ability.  Mine has 4 wires.  However, I've read
> that on the older systems, the pins inside the connector apply power to
> pin 3 which disables the drives.  Mine doesn't have that extra wire but
> I don't think that really matters.  Maybe I need to put a voltmeter on
> the connector and see if there is anything on pin 3 or not.  I suspect
> there is tho. 
> 
> Has anyone had one of these drives connected and remember what the
> system reports when disabled??  What clues it gives that shows it is
> disabled if any??
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive receives 
voltage on pin 3 it powers down.  This requires a MoBo and firmware which 
supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.

https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library/en_us/assets/
public/western-digital/collateral/tech-brief/tech-brief-western-digital-power-
disable-pin.pdf

If the drive does not spin up, you could try to insulate pin 3 with 
electrician's tape and see if the disk spins up, or use a molex power adaptor 
as already discussed.  Usually you can feel the disk vibrating when powering 
up.

Since you managed to make it spin but smartclt barfs, I would think there is 
something wrong with it.  Either way, life is too short to bother with disks 
which do not work as you reasonably expect them to work.  RMA it and/or buy a 
different disk after you confirm its replacement does not come with a PWDIS 
feature.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 2 May 2024 16:37:24 +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:

> So, it seems I have at least one package which I wouldn't expect to
> have: app-admin/xstow
> 
> I seem to remember I installed a long time ago. It is in the world file,
> hence emerge -c wouldn't clean it. I don't have csh but think I had it
> once upon a time. Removing...

emerge -c will remove packages that are in @world. It was probably also a
dependency of something else when you tried before.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Mmmm, trouble with grammer have I, yes?" - Yoda


pgp4VKqIbtUUd.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

William Kenworthy wrote:
> See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable
>
> BillK
>

I'm aware of what it is and the cable part.  I was curious what it looks
like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
disabled.  From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
up at all.  I've seen some claim it shows up but you can't access it. 
I've read different explanations of what the drive does and maybe it
varies from one maker to another.  What I was hoping for, someone on
this list has connected a drive with that pin disabling the drive and
can confirm what I posted is what it looks like or explain what the
system does when one is connected. 

When I connected that drive to my NAS box, it was very slow to go
through the BIOS post and where it usually lists the connected drives,
only the drive with the OS showed up.  When connected to the older Dell
rig, it booted up normally.  It doesn't list connected drives like the
NAS box does.  It did show up in /proc/partitions.  The SMART command
showed a different story.  It makes it look like the drive has power but
may not be spinning up.  It can get the info such as model number,
serial number, capacity and other info but can't read the SMART data,
which I assume is written to the platter part of the drive.  I'm not
sure on that tho.  What I don't know, is that because of the PWDIS pin
or has nothing to do with it. 

As it is, the seller agreed to take the drive back.  If the seller says
the drive works for them, I guess it has that PWDIS feature.  If it
doesn't work for them, just a bad drive, perhaps damaged in shipping or
something.  I'm just curious as to how a drive behaves when it has that
PWDIS pin and the drive is disabled. 

I did notice in the pic on your link that the new power connector has 5
wires.  It has the PWDIS ability.  Mine has 4 wires.  However, I've read
that on the older systems, the pins inside the connector apply power to
pin 3 which disables the drives.  Mine doesn't have that extra wire but
I don't think that really matters.  Maybe I need to put a voltmeter on
the connector and see if there is anything on pin 3 or not.  I suspect
there is tho. 

Has anyone had one of these drives connected and remember what the
system reports when disabled??  What clues it gives that shows it is
disabled if any??

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[William Kenworthy]

See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable

BillK


On 7/5/24 09:00, Dale wrote:

Howdy,

I ordered another hard drive, yup, I keep filling them up.  Anyway, it
looks like a shucked drive but may not be.  I tried to find out if there
is a way to know if a drive has that pin 3 problem or not but no luck.
It did power up after I hooked it to a old system with a molex to sata
power adapter.  Then the SMART tests went wonky, bad wonky.  This is
what it showed.


NAS2 ~ # smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 7.4 2023-08-01 r5530 [x86_64-linux-6.8.7-gentoo] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-23, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: ST16000NM000D
Serial Number:    ZVTC8V09
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000c50 0e79eb73e
Firmware Version: SN03
User Capacity:    16,000,900,661,248 bytes [16.0 TB]
Sector Size:  512 bytes logical/physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Device is:    Not in smartctl database 7.3/5528
ATA Version is:   ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s
Local Time is:    Mon May  6 15:51:00 2024 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

Read SMART Data failed: scsi error device not ready

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Status command failed: scsi error badly formed scsi parameters
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: UNKNOWN!
SMART Status, Attributes and Thresholds cannot be read.

Read SMART Log Directory failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Error Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Self-test Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Selective Self-tests/Logging not supported

NAS2 ~ #


Does anyone know what it looks like when a drive has that PWDIS feature
and the drive is disabled?  Does it look like that?  The drive would not
power up at all on my main rig or my NAS box but with the molex to sata
cable on the old Dell Inspiron, NAS@ box, it did power up but was really
slow to be seen and SMART shows the above.  Either way, PWDIS feature or
just a DOA drive, it won't work in my main rig which is where I want it
to go.  I requested a refund.  I'll buy one I can do more research on
next time.

I'm mostly just curious on this.  I've never actually had a drive with
the PWDIS pin.  Other than I've read they don't power up at all, I have
no idea how they respond or if they respond at all.  I figure someone on
the list has seen one.  If this is how they behave, I'll know next
time.  If they just off period, then a bad drive.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Howdy,

I ordered another hard drive, yup, I keep filling them up.  Anyway, it
looks like a shucked drive but may not be.  I tried to find out if there
is a way to know if a drive has that pin 3 problem or not but no luck. 
It did power up after I hooked it to a old system with a molex to sata
power adapter.  Then the SMART tests went wonky, bad wonky.  This is
what it showed. 


NAS2 ~ # smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 7.4 2023-08-01 r5530 [x86_64-linux-6.8.7-gentoo] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-23, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: ST16000NM000D
Serial Number:    ZVTC8V09
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000c50 0e79eb73e
Firmware Version: SN03
User Capacity:    16,000,900,661,248 bytes [16.0 TB]
Sector Size:  512 bytes logical/physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Device is:    Not in smartctl database 7.3/5528
ATA Version is:   ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s
Local Time is:    Mon May  6 15:51:00 2024 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

Read SMART Data failed: scsi error device not ready

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Status command failed: scsi error badly formed scsi parameters
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: UNKNOWN!
SMART Status, Attributes and Thresholds cannot be read.

Read SMART Log Directory failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Error Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Self-test Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Selective Self-tests/Logging not supported

NAS2 ~ #


Does anyone know what it looks like when a drive has that PWDIS feature
and the drive is disabled?  Does it look like that?  The drive would not
power up at all on my main rig or my NAS box but with the molex to sata
cable on the old Dell Inspiron, NAS@ box, it did power up but was really
slow to be seen and SMART shows the above.  Either way, PWDIS feature or
just a DOA drive, it won't work in my main rig which is where I want it
to go.  I requested a refund.  I'll buy one I can do more research on
next time. 

I'm mostly just curious on this.  I've never actually had a drive with
the PWDIS pin.  Other than I've read they don't power up at all, I have
no idea how they respond or if they respond at all.  I figure someone on
the list has seen one.  If this is how they behave, I'll know next
time.  If they just off period, then a bad drive.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>> On Sunday, 28 April 2024 13:57:23 BST Dale wrote:
>>
>>> I just got to figure out how to make it so I can login as root via ssh
>>> again.  I set PermitRootLogin to yes in ssh config but still refuses.  I
>>> did it on my NAS box but can't recall what else I had to do.
>> Just checking the obvious, did you start sshd?
>>
>> Is a port open and listening for ssh connections (use nc, telnet, nmap to 
>> find 
>> out).
>>
>> Will it let you login as a plain user, then 'su' to run as root?
>>
>> Make sure the plain user is in the wheel group.
>
> Right now, I can login as a user then su to root, and password.  I just
> can't login as root directly.  I use Dolphin and the fish thingy to
> access config files etc so I can use Kwrite to edit files etc.  Thing
> is, I have to login as root for some files.  No way to su to root with
> Dolphin, that I know of anyway. 
>
> I'm pretty sure I set this up on the old NAS box.  My searches shows the
> PermitRootLogin set to yes should do it but I guess I missed something. 
>
> Any ideas?  I did search old threads but only found the option above,
> mentioned by Neil I think. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>


I figured it out.  I was editing ssh_config when I should be editing
sshd_config.  Note the "d" in there.  After doing some digging, a lot of
digging, I finally noticed that extra "d" in there.  Now it works and I
can use a file manager like Dolphin or something and fish to edit files,
move them around etc. 

Amazing how one letter can really mess things up.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 14:09, Peter Humphrey  wrote:

> On Thursday, 2 May 2024 13:55:42 BST Jorge Almeida wrote:
> > I have
> > /var/lib/bin
> > in my $PATH (both as root and as normal user)
>
> > Anyone with the same problem/weirdness?
>
> Nope. Have you tried 'grep -r var/lib/bin /etc' ?
>
> I tried now:
/etc/profile.env:export
PATH='/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/opt/bin:/usr/lib/llvm/17/bin:/var/lib/bin'
/etc/environment.d/10-gentoo-env.conf:PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/opt/bin:/usr/lib/llvm/17/bin:/var/lib/bin
/etc/env.d/99xstow:PATH=/var/lib/bin
/etc/csh.env:setenv PATH
'/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/opt/bin:/usr/lib/llvm/17/bin:/var/lib/bin'

So, it seems I have at least one package which I wouldn't expect to
have: app-admin/xstow

I seem to remember I installed a long time ago. It is in the world file,
hence emerge -c wouldn't clean it. I don't have csh but think I had it once
upon a time. Removing...

Ok, done, and the PATH is fine now.

Thanks,

Jorge

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 15:07, Petr Vaněk  wrote:

> On Thu, May 02, 2024 at 01:55:42PM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
> > I have /var/lib/bin in my $PATH (both as root and as normal user)
> >
> Do you have app-admin/xstow installed? This seems to be the (only)
>
Indeed, I had it in the world file, currently unused and long forgotten.
Solved..

Thanks,
Jorge

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Petr Vaněk]

On Thu, May 02, 2024 at 01:55:42PM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
> I have /var/lib/bin in my $PATH (both as root and as normal user)
> 
> [snip] What could be setting this?  (grep /var/lib/bin /etc/conf.d/*
> returns nothing)

Do you have app-admin/xstow installed? This seems to be the (only)
package which adds /var/lib/bin to the PATH, see [1]. At least, I was
able to grep -F var/lib/bin pattern only in this package in ::gentoo
overlay.

[1] 
https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/blob/c2fb597e863fb296b5cdaf36e8b258b20c47d4a1/app-admin/xstow/xstow-1.1.0.ebuild#L51-L52

Petr

Re: [gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 2 May 2024 13:55:42 BST Jorge Almeida wrote:
> I have
> /var/lib/bin
> in my $PATH (both as root and as normal user)
> 
> That directory does not exist. Should it exist!?
> What could be setting this?
> (grep /var/lib/bin /etc/conf.d/* returns nothing)
> 
> Anyone with the same problem/weirdness?

Nope. Have you tried 'grep -r var/lib/bin /etc' ?

-- 
Regards,
Peter.


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[gentoo-user] bad $PATH

[Jorge Almeida]

I have
/var/lib/bin
in my $PATH (both as root and as normal user)

That directory does not exist. Should it exist!?
What could be setting this?
(grep /var/lib/bin /etc/conf.d/* returns nothing)

Anyone with the same problem/weirdness?

Thanks

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 2 May 2024 00:45:29 BST Dale wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> > OK, so 'boot' is for the Linux /boot directory.  I was just curious
> > since I had never used one.

When I started using Linux, the received wisdom was to keep a separate /boot, 
and leave it unmounted during normal operation. The idea was that a successful 
hacker would not, supposedly, be able to corrupt the kernel ready for a reboot 
into their system.

Old habits die hard, though, and besides, a separate /boot has been handy in 
the copious reinstallations I've been through.

> I've used one ever since I started using Linux and it's as much habit as
> anything.  Given the size of drives nowadays, I have started putting
> /usr and /var on the root partition.  When I build my new rig tho, odds
> are /var will be on its own partition.  That way if a log file goes
> wonky, it can fill it up and not really do any harm. 

I do that too. It also helps with backups and new installations.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.


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Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub, gpt partitions and BIOS, not uefi thing.

[Dale]

Michael wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 May 2024 00:45:29 BST Dale wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-01, Dale  wrote:
 Grant Edwards wrote:
> The partition type code for 'swap' is wrong -- it should be
> 8200. According to the gdisk help info Linux /home is supposed to be
> 8302, but I've always used the same generic "Linux filesystem" type
> for both /home and root.
>
> Is the 'boot' partition for future possible UEFI use, for Linux /boot,
> or both?  [I've never used a separate partition for Linux /boot, I
> just use a /boot directory on the root FS.]
 I noticed the other day that some new ones was added.  I always leave it
 as 8300 and it works.  It even works for swap.  I dunno. 
> In the legacy DOS partition tables the space available was limited to 32 
> bits, 
> while the GPT table specification provides 128 bytes for each block entry.  
> The extra space can be used to store information related to the intended OS 
> usage of each partition, by adding the corresponding Partition Type UUID.
>
> This has a number of benefits, described here:
>
> https://uapi-group.org/specifications/specs/
> discoverable_partitions_specification/
>
> Besides the automation this feature affords, I find it useful to know what a 
> partition contains without having to mount it.  On GPT labelled disks I make 
> use both of the Partition Type UUID and the Partition Name.  A quick glance 
> at 
> the gdisk output and if need be its 'i' option has saved my day from 
> formatting the wrong partition more than once!  ;-)


I always use labels which show up with cgdisk.  If I'm unsure how I
partitioned a drive for some reason, I just check it with cgdisk to see
what is what.  I use labels even tho a lot of the time I put UUIDs in
fstab.  I do similar when using LVM as well. 

There is more than one way to organize things tho.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-)