[gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware makes it do. I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that. I don't see how some bit of PC software can make a drive head move. The firmware on the drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move. Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own custom version? Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware? I don't see any claims like that on their web site? Meaning that spinrite can extract data that the drive itself in normal conditions cannot. This reasoning is sound. I've no problem with the reasoning. I, however, don't accept the premise. True, provided it actually knows HOW to override the firmware on all drives currently in use... I doubt that it can. Remember that a drive is an analogue device, not a digital one (only the *output data* is digital). Ofcourse, but is the head actually sensitive enough to be able to cooperate with this? Professional data recovery companies actually take out the platters and use their own drive-heads to get the data out. There is some doubt as to whether spinrite can even function in this wise with modern drives though. Yes, and that's exactly my point. Something that overrides the drives firmware can, in my view, easily brick the drive. If spinrite is replacing the drive's firmware, then in theory they might be able to do something extra, but I'd say the odds of them being able to reverse-engineer enough the drives out there enough to do their own custom firmware for all of a significant number of them is pretty close to 0. Besides, their web site explicitly states that they can't do low level formatting, they run under DOS, and that they can only use drives that are recogized by the mothoerboard BIOS. AFAICT, they're just using the normal IDE/ATA API and are doing nothing extraordinary. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Hey, wait at a minute!! I want a gmail.comdivorce!! ... you're not Clint Eastwood!!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware makes it do. I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that. I don't see how some bit of PC software can make a drive head move. The firmware on the drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move. Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own custom version? Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within the context of a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as fopen() SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. The firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to a disk Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware? I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too much to bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more. I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention below replace) the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote will show I meant bypass In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast flowery language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a very good reputation years ago but it's possible that Gibson over-inflated his claims. Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson claimed his software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the other for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
On 16 November 2010 16:20, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware makes it do. I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that. I don't see how some bit of PC software can make a drive head move. The firmware on the drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move. Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own custom version? Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within the context of a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as fopen() SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. The firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to a disk Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware? I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too much to bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more. I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention below replace) the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote will show I meant bypass In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast flowery language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a very good reputation years ago but it's possible that Gibson over-inflated his claims. Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson claimed his software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the other for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler. Gibson's specialism is Marketing. He's not an IT bod, never has been. Most of his writings are spreading FUD and exaggerations which misinform people who do not know better. That said I do not know if spinrite is a good product. -- Regards, Mick
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
On Tuesday 16 November 2010 16:20:37 Alan McKinnon wrote: for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler. Ah! Come back 1974 - all is forgiven :-) -- Rgds Peter. Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.
[gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
On 2010-11-16, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware makes it do. I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that. I don't see how some bit of PC software can make a drive head move. The firmware on the drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move. Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own custom version? Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level commands on the drive. I've no idea what you mean by that. The firmware is what runs on the microprocessor on the drive's controller board. It's what controls the servo hardware. It sits between the ATA interface and the drive's low-level electronics. The only way to bypass that firmware is to replace it with something different. High and low are to be taken here within the context of a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as fopen() SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. Those registers are not exposed by the IDE/ATA interface. The firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to a disk Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware? I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too much to bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more. I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention below replace) the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote will show I meant bypass How are you going to bypass the firmware? The drive has a microprocessor that is wired to the servo hardware. How can you bypass that microprossor and control the servo hardware using an ATA interface? In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast flowery language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a very good reputation years ago but it's possible that Gibson over-inflated his claims. Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson claimed his software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the other for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler. I'm not say that Gibson didn't claim his software could do that. I'm just saying I don't understand how it could. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm dressing up in at an ill-fitting IVY-LEAGUE gmail.comSUIT!! Too late...
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze
- Original Message From: Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Cc: Grant Edwards grant.b.edwa...@gmail.com Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware makes it do. I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that. I don't see how some bit of PC software can make a drive head move. The firmware on the drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move. Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own custom version? Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within the context of a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as fopen() SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. The firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to a disk While I am no hard drive expert - I would suppose that only the firmware would have access to the registers and commands that actually control the internals of the hard drive; though it could be possible to utilize some lesser published functionality in the firmware, I would find it hard to believe that they would allow the internals of the hard drive to be controlled by anything other then their own software (e.g. the firmware). The primary responsibility of the firmware is to act as the control software and present the software interfaces that are desired - e.g. support the commands recieved via the hardware bus interface (e.g. PATA, SATA, etc.). There are probably some extra functions there for diagnostic purposes, but they are likely to be things only known by the manufacturer, things you could only expect software from the manufacturer to support or even possibly be aware of. In such case you wouldn't be bypassing the firmware - just using it in a slightly different, unpublished, manufacturer-only mode - user beware - e.g. firmware update. Thus I'd have to agree with the BS-call. Again, I am no hard drive expert. $0.02 Ben
