Re: [geo] Michael Mann - SIRIUS - geoengineering

['Adrian Hindes' via geoengineering]

Mann's analogy of the need to continue doing solar geoengineering being 
like getting addicted to *methadone *seemed like a very unnecessarily 
polemic example. Mann's inability/unwillingness to note the significant 
differences between weather modification and solar geoengineering was also 
not helpful.

But yeah agree with Herb. Decent-ish/meh surface level overview of the 
topic (within the constraints of a 20 min podcast). It'd be good if some of 
the experts in this group and the community could get more guest 
appearances on these sorts of podcasts to improve the public understanding 
of the state of geoengineering research.

On Thursday, 16 February 2023 at 4:55:22 am UTC+11 
david@carbon-cycle.co.uk wrote:

> How do you undertake meaningful development without field testing? 
>
>  
>
> A useful comparison that was used to defeat a ban on using animals to 
> train surgeons. It was done as an ad, “ Today the doctor will do life or 
> death surgery on your daughter. Today is the first time he has operated in 
> reality and the first time that he has carried this operation. Previously 
> he would have learned using animals but this has been banned. Do you want 
> this future?”
>
>  
>
> It is stupid to think that we can develop what is likely to be an 
> essential technology without actual field trials.  And the idea that we 
> will try it at scale with to testing or ramp up is not remotely creditable.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> David Sevier
>
>  
>
> Carbon Cycle Limited
>
> 248 Sutton Common Road
>
> Sutton, Surrey SM3 9PW
>
> England
>
>  
>
> Tel 44 (0) 208 288 0128
>
> www.carbon-cycle.co.uk
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* geoengi...@googlegroups.com  *On 
> Behalf Of *H simmens
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2023 5:42 PM
> *Cc:* hsim...@gmail.com; Doug Grandt ; Planetary 
> Restoration ; 
> healthy-planet-action-coalition ; 
> geoengineering ; John Nissen <
> johnnis...@gmail.com>; Robert Tulip ; Robert Chris <
> robert...@gmail.com>; Rebecca personal em 
> *Subject:* Re: [geo] Michael Mann - SIRIUS - geoengineering
>
>  
>
> For those who may have missed Michael Mann's conversation an hour ago, 
> there was not surprisingly little new. He did clearly and unambiguously 
> support more research into solar geo engineering as long as it does not 
> involve field testing. He invoked the familiar bogeymen - adverse 
> unintended consequences, termination shock and moral hazard as reasons why 
> it should not be deployed. He did not distinguish between SAI and other 
> methods. To Smerconish’s credit he did bring up mount Pinatubo and Mann 
> acknowledged that it lowered temperatures.
>
>  
>
> There was absolutely no discussion as is typical of these conversations of 
> the relative risks and benefits of solar geoengineering versus ERA/emission 
> reductions alone.
>
>  
>
> By the way Smerconish is one of the very few talk programs with a large 
> base of listeners that is down the middle politically. 
>
>  
>
> You may be able to listen to the conversation at the link below, though 
> you may need to be an XM subscriber. The conversation starts at 11:05 am.
>
>  
>
> SiriusXM Player: Online Radio, Music, Sports, News, Podcasts & Talk 
> 
>
> player.siriusxm.com 
>
> 
>
>  
>
> Herb
>
>  
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:46 PM, H simmens  wrote:
>
>  
>
> Hi Jim,
>
>  
>
> I’m sure I speak for all of us in our support of your revised ‘and more 
> forthright’ paper, and your ‘no holds barred’ book.  
>
>  
>
> Your courageous climate honesty is truly an inspiration. 
>
>  
>
> Herb
>
> Herb Simmens
>
> Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future
>
> @herbsimmens
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:30 PM, James Hansen  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Not yet -- first will submit revised Pipeline paper soon -- clearer with 
> some additional insight, IMHO, and hopefully more forthright w/o losing any 
> co-author or reviewer - will be no holds barred in my book.
>
> Jim Hansen
>
>  
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 8:16 PM H simmens  wrote:
>
> Good catch Doug. Smerconish to his credit is the only mainstream radio 
> talk show host who regularly brings on climate scientists and alas it’s 
> almost always Michael Mann.
>
>  
>
> Smerconish is usually deferential to Mann so I don’t expect much pushback 
> when he excoriates Geo engineering.
>
>  
>
> I’ve got a friend who has a connection with Smerconish, so let me see if I 
> can find a way to get him to bring on another establishment climate 
> scientist next time - like Jim Hansen! 
>
>  
>
> Herb
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Herb Simmens
>
> Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future
>
> @herbsimmens
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:00 PM, 'Doug Grandt' via Healthy Planet Action 
> Coalition (HPAC)  wrote:
>
> 
>
> This should be interesting … or infuriating 
>
>  
>
> Michael Mann posted the following on his Facebook page this afternoon 
>
>  
>
> Wednesday 11am 

[geo] GE: Hearts and Minds - Why did the Saami Council oppose Harvard’s SCoPEx experiment?

[Greg Rau]

https://www.c2g2.net/asa-larsson-blind/?utm_source=Carnegie+Climate+Governance+Initiative_campaign=92a857209e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_02_15_06_42_medium=email_term=0_d7ddd02ed0-92a857209e-[LIST_EMAIL_ID]
"There is a need for technology development, and there is clearly a need and we 
see that in climate discussions broadly, the great importance of research.  
This is not something that we question at all. 

What we do oppose is the direction toward technologies that do not actually 
target the root causes of climate change and the great amount of resources that 
are put into what could be seen as feeding into the idea of a quick fix and the 
over belief of technology being the main solution, also then taking away the 
importance of the parallel transition of the society toward a more sustainable 
way of living.  We cannot downplay the need for change and we need to realize 
that the solution of this crisis is a change in societal structures. 

Of course we need new technologies and of course we also need research, and we 
need to listen to the researchers.  We have extensive research saying that we 
need to cut emissions and that we need to change the economical structures on 
Earth, scrutinize power balances, and take action, and they have been saying 
that for quite some time now. 

Our fear is that when we now have researchers saying that we might not need to 
change that much and that we could actually with new technology monitor and 
manage the whole Earth to the extent of also controlling the atmosphere.  For 
me that is not learning from what researchers have been saying what we need to 
do now, that we need to take a step back, to find a way back to respect the 
boundaries of Earth, that we have overused the world’s resources, we have 
overexploited for too long, and that is what has been putting us into this 
climate crisis.  It is the mindset of humans entitled to control everything on 
earth and not needing to respect the Earth’s boundaries. 
Whatever we do now should be guided by the principle and the guiding question: 
Is this a measure that will help get us back on-track in respecting the 
boundaries of the Earth’s resources, even if it is in the long term?  I don’t 
see that this kind of technology does that actually.
GR So, by analogy we shouldn't learn how to treat lung cancer because it 
doesn't address the "root cause" - smoking?  Would be interesting to get their 
take on CDR.

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RE: [geo] Michael Mann - SIRIUS - geoengineering

[david.sevier]

How do you undertake meaningful development without field testing? 

 

A useful comparison that was used to defeat a ban on using animals to train 
surgeons. It was done as an ad, “ Today the doctor will do life or death 
surgery on your daughter. Today is the first time he has operated in reality 
and the first time that he has carried this operation. Previously he would have 
learned using animals but this has been banned. Do you want this future?”

 

It is stupid to think that we can develop what is likely to be an essential 
technology without actual field trials.  And the idea that we will try it at 
scale with to testing or ramp up is not remotely creditable.

 

 

David Sevier

 

Carbon Cycle Limited

248 Sutton Common Road

Sutton, Surrey SM3 9PW

England

 

Tel 44 (0) 208 288 0128

www.carbon-cycle.co.uk

 

 

 

 

From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of H simmens
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 5:42 PM
Cc: hsimm...@gmail.com; Doug Grandt ; Planetary 
Restoration ; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; geoengineering 
; John Nissen ; 
Robert Tulip ; Robert Chris ; 
Rebecca personal em 
Subject: Re: [geo] Michael Mann - SIRIUS - geoengineering

 

For those who may have missed Michael Mann's conversation an hour ago, there 
was not surprisingly little new. He did clearly and unambiguously support more 
research into solar geo engineering as long as it does not involve field 
testing. He invoked the familiar bogeymen - adverse unintended consequences, 
termination shock and moral hazard as reasons why it should not be deployed. He 
did not distinguish between SAI and other methods. To Smerconish’s credit he 
did bring up mount Pinatubo and Mann acknowledged that it lowered temperatures.

 

There was absolutely no discussion as is typical of these conversations of the 
relative risks and benefits of solar geoengineering versus ERA/emission 
reductions alone.

 

By the way Smerconish is one of the very few talk programs with a large base of 
listeners that is down the middle politically. 

 

You may be able to listen to the conversation at the link below, though you may 
need to be an XM subscriber. The conversation starts at 11:05 am.

 

 



  SiriusXM Player: Online Radio, 
Music, Sports, News, Podcasts & Talk

  player.siriusxm.com

  

 

Herb

 





On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:46 PM, H simmens mailto:hsimm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Hi Jim,

 

I’m sure I speak for all of us in our support of your revised ‘and more 
forthright’ paper, and your ‘no holds barred’ book.  

 

Your courageous climate honesty is truly an inspiration. 

 

Herb

Herb Simmens

Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future

@herbsimmens





On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:30 PM, James Hansen mailto:jimehan...@gmail.com> > wrote:



Not yet -- first will submit revised Pipeline paper soon -- clearer with some 
additional insight, IMHO, and hopefully more forthright w/o losing any 
co-author or reviewer - will be no holds barred in my book.

Jim Hansen

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 8:16 PM H simmens mailto:hsimm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Good catch Doug. Smerconish to his credit is the only mainstream radio talk 
show host who regularly brings on climate scientists and alas it’s almost 
always Michael Mann.

 

Smerconish is usually deferential to Mann so I don’t expect much pushback when 
he excoriates Geo engineering.

 

I’ve got a friend who has a connection with Smerconish, so let me see if I can 
find a way to get him to bring on another establishment climate scientist next 
time - like Jim Hansen! 

 

Herb

 

 

 

 

Herb Simmens

Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future

@herbsimmens





On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:00 PM, 'Doug Grandt' via Healthy Planet Action Coalition 
(HPAC) mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com> > wrote:



This should be interesting … or infuriating 

 

Michael Mann posted the following on his Facebook page this afternoon 

 

Wednesday 11am (EST), 4pm (UK)

Thursday  3am (AEDT)

 

I'll be talking about geoengineering with the great Michael Smerconish, 
tomorrow (Wednesday) 11am ET, SiriusXM: 






 

 POTUS Politics

 

 siriusxm.com

 

Click LISTEN LIVE



You may have to get the App if you don’t already subscribe. I did … hope it 
works!!

 

Doug Grandt

 

Sent from my iPhone (audio texting)

 

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Re: [geo] Michael Mann - SIRIUS - geoengineering

[H simmens]

For those who may have missed Michael Mann's conversation an hour ago, there 
was not surprisingly little new. He did clearly and unambiguously support more 
research into solar geo engineering as long as it does not involve field 
testing. He invoked the familiar bogeymen - adverse unintended consequences, 
termination shock and moral hazard as reasons why it should not be deployed. He 
did not distinguish between SAI and other methods. To Smerconish’s credit he 
did bring up mount Pinatubo and Mann acknowledged that it lowered temperatures.

There was absolutely no discussion as is typical of these conversations of the 
relative risks and benefits of solar geoengineering versus ERA/emission 
reductions alone.

By the way Smerconish is one of the very few talk programs with a large base of 
listeners that is down the middle politically. 

You may be able to listen to the conversation at the link below, though you may 
need to be an XM subscriber. The conversation starts at 11:05 am.


https://player.siriusxm.com/now-playing
Herb


> On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:46 PM, H simmens  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> I’m sure I speak for all of us in our support of your revised ‘and more 
> forthright’ paper, and your ‘no holds barred’ book.  
> 
> Your courageous climate honesty is truly an inspiration. 
> 
> Herb
> 
> Herb Simmens
> Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future
> @herbsimmens
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:30 PM, James Hansen  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Not yet -- first will submit revised Pipeline paper soon -- clearer with 
>> some additional insight, IMHO, and hopefully more forthright w/o losing any 
>> co-author or reviewer - will be no holds barred in my book.
>> Jim Hansen
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 8:16 PM H simmens > > wrote:
>>> Good catch Doug. Smerconish to his credit is the only mainstream radio talk 
>>> show host who regularly brings on climate scientists and alas it’s almost 
>>> always Michael Mann.
>>> 
>>> Smerconish is usually deferential to Mann so I don’t expect much pushback 
>>> when he excoriates Geo engineering.
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a friend who has a connection with Smerconish, so let me see if I 
>>> can find a way to get him to bring on another establishment climate 
>>> scientist next time - like Jim Hansen! 
>>> 
>>> Herb
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Herb Simmens
>>> Author A Climate Vocabulary of the Future
>>> @herbsimmens
>>> 
 On Feb 14, 2023, at 8:00 PM, 'Doug Grandt' via Healthy Planet Action 
 Coalition (HPAC) >>> > wrote:
 
 
 This should be interesting … or infuriating 
 
 Michael Mann posted the following on his Facebook page this afternoon 
 
 Wednesday 11am (EST), 4pm (UK)
 Thursday  3am (AEDT)
 
 I'll be talking about geoengineering with the great Michael Smerconish, 
 tomorrow (Wednesday) 11am ET, SiriusXM: 
 
 POTUS Politics
 siriusxm.com
  
 
 POTUS Politics 
 
 siriusxm.com 
 
 Click LISTEN LIVE

 You may have to get the App if you don’t already subscribe. I did … hope 
 it works!!
 
 Doug Grandt
 
 Sent from my iPhone (audio texting)
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 "Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC)" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
 email to healthy-planet-action-coalition+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
 .
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
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 .
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "geoengineering" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/61472B7B-C523-4F58-A86F-C8EF72255242%40gmail.com
>>>  
>>> .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 

[geo] Negative Emission Technologies (NETs) and Solar Radiation Management (SRM) to Meet Paris Agreement: Prospects, Limitations and Challenges

[ayesha iqbal]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/363281483_Negative_Emission_Technologies_NETs_and_Solar_Radiation_Management_SRM_to_Meet_Paris_Agreement_Prospects_Limitations_and_Challenges



   - September 2022
   -
  -

DOI:10.13140/RG.2.2.10723.84001




Author:
Md Yeasin Kabir 

   - Australian National University
   

   -

Abstract
Existing mitigation initiatives and future commitments appear to be
insufficient to achieve the goals of the Paris Agreement. Therefore, study
and debate reinforce the likelihoods of using suggested geoengineering
techniques, either through broad-based interventions that alter the
radiative energy budget of the Earth (Solar Radiation Management) or
through the removal of CO2 from the atmosphere (Negative Emission
Technologies). Most of the proposed technologies are in the development
stages; they also raise ethical, financial, environmental and governance
concerns and involve significant risks and uncertainties. Besides, studies
suggest that if they are actively pursued in a far-reaching scale, before
the second half of the century, they would very unlikely be implemented.
Therefore, to meet the global emission target, mitigation initiatives
should be taken far beyond the existing plans.

*Source: **Research**Gate*

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