Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Mark Lentczner]

A few specific points:

1) 2013.4.0.0 isn't really "ready to be pushed" - there were delays, and
then some rolling updates... and some churn. While there is a proposed set
of packages... and it does compile... there is still some work on the Mac
version (it needs to incorporate my patch script for Mavericks).

2) If we roll out 2013.4.0.0 - that will mean a fair bit of work for all
the packagers... and they (and I) won't be up for doing it again for a few
months.

3) For the Mac release, I've really shied away from solutions that have
people install a second C compiler. While some solutions for Mavericks had
people installing gcc from macports or the like, I think we are better
served with a solution that works with the default tool chain for the
platform. I have no experience with FreeBSD, but I would think similar
considerations apply (though at least there, everyone has ports.)

4) Stability in both GHC and the library eco-system seems (perhaps
subjectively) more stable to me now than it did three/four years ago. In
particular, many of the package maintainers for packages in the platform
are already ready for the 7.8 release. Further, several important packages
(text, aseon, cabal) work best with newer versions of core packages (which
will be in 7.8) and are a bit hacky when working with the core shipped with
7.6.

All in all, I'm still seeing this discussion coming down strongly in favor
of delaying for 7.8. Further, I believe everyone involved so far is on
board with the stability aims of the platform.

- Mark
​
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Carter Schonwald]

Jens,
are you willing to undertake providing support for all the problems in
current 7.6 on ALL platforms right now?

Are you willing to test the builds on all platforms, and be the person to
help everyone who's hitting issues?

doing an HP release now will push back the release timeline of an HP
version with 7.8 that has full first class support for 10.9 clang quirks +
the win64 fixes that are landing in head this past week, along with a whole
slew of other ecosystem amazing improvements.

I suspect the next HP will be using 7.8.2, because certain final steps of
the windows fixes are slated for that release, though maybe things'll move
up and get fixed in 7.8.1. I could be wrong mind you.

I'm *quite super duper happy* that the next HP will be 7.8.




On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Jens Petersen
wrote:

>  I know it is difficult but if ghc and haskell-platform could align
>> their schedules better then things might be easier to plan in the future.
>>
>
> Really I would like to see a HP release now *and* one after 7.8.1! :)
> I think HP beta releases should follow each ghc release
> and there can be additional point release updates as needed
> between major ghc releases.  The stable HP release would come
> from the latest stable ghc release.  So ideally we could have an
> updated stable release based on 7.6.3 and an alpha/beta release
> after 7.8.1 is released.  For such pre-releases the binaries do not
> have to be ready on the release day just a source tarball.
> RCs with binaries once tested could be promoted to stable releases.
>
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Jens Petersen]

>
> I know it is difficult but if ghc and haskell-platform could align
> their schedules better then things might be easier to plan in the future.
>

Really I would like to see a HP release now *and* one after 7.8.1! :)
I think HP beta releases should follow each ghc release
and there can be additional point release updates as needed
between major ghc releases.  The stable HP release would come
from the latest stable ghc release.  So ideally we could have an
updated stable release based on 7.6.3 and an alpha/beta release
after 7.8.1 is released.  For such pre-releases the binaries do not
have to be ready on the release day just a source tarball.
RCs with binaries once tested could be promoted to stable releases.
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Carter Schonwald]

Indeed.  Perhaps more importantly: many long standing problems, relating to
how ghci linking works on every major platform, and having win64 support,
look to be resolved In 7.8.  These are HUGE. Additionally the Cpp that's a
bother on osx and bsd systems matter goes away for HP if the next release
is using 7.8 (especially if a wee patch I wrote to kill the problem good
this week gets merged in. )

On Thursday, January 23, 2014, Sven Panne  wrote:

> Just a quick +1 for including GHC 7.8 in the next HP release.
> Regarding compiler features, shipping GHC 7.6.3 again would mean that
> the HP is still roughly at September 2012 (the first release of GHC
> 7.6.x). Furthermore, I don't fully buy into the argument that we
> should wait for 7.8 to stabilize: Power users will use something near
> HEAD, anyway, almost all other users will probably use the HP.
>
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Sven Panne]

Just a quick +1 for including GHC 7.8 in the next HP release.
Regarding compiler features, shipping GHC 7.6.3 again would mean that
the HP is still roughly at September 2012 (the first release of GHC
7.6.x). Furthermore, I don't fully buy into the argument that we
should wait for 7.8 to stabilize: Power users will use something near
HEAD, anyway, almost all other users will probably use the HP.
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Jens Petersen]

On 20 January 2014 17:29, Andres Löh  wrote:

> (2) Simply because GHC 7.8 is itself so long delayed and so full of
> new features, I think it's realistic to assume that quite a few
> library glitches will appear even after it's released. Also, GHC bugs
> may be found only after formal release (despite all the hammering, the
> use of GHC pre release isn't quite comparable with the amount of
> testing it gets afterwards; IMHO, there might very well be need for a
> GHC 7.8.2). I'm all for trying to get an HP based on GHC 7.8 out as
> possible, but how soon would that actually happen, realistically?
>

I know I already said "+1" but this is also a very valid standpoint.
I guess the question is how long does HP
want to wait for a stable ghc-7.8 release?

There were already a number of important library updates
planned for the HP release with ghc-7.6.3 -
doing things more incrementally is also good I believe.
Also as Andres mentioned in view of Mavericks.

I know it is difficult but if ghc and haskell-platform could align
their schedules better then things might be easier to plan in the future.

Jens
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Páli Gábor János]

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Andres Löh  wrote:
> I can understand the motivation of this proposal, but I'm slightly worried:

+1

> (2) Simply because GHC 7.8 is itself so long delayed and so full of
> new features, I think it's realistic to assume that quite a few
> library glitches will appear even after it's released. Also, GHC bugs
> may be found only after formal release (despite all the hammering, the
> use of GHC pre release isn't quite comparable with the amount of
> testing it gets afterwards; IMHO, there might very well be need for a
> GHC 7.8.2). I'm all for trying to get an HP based on GHC 7.8 out as
> possible, but how soon would that actually happen, realistically?
> Sooner than 6 months from now?

I do not think so.  Waiting a couple of months after 7.8.1 is released
to let the dust settle will not hurt anyway.
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Bob Ippolito]

+1

I'm just a user, but I'm very excited about the possibility of getting a
GHC 7.8 platform release sooner than later (especially considering Mio and
the other great additions). Another release with the same GHC wouldn't do
me much good.


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Mark Lentczner wrote:

> Looks like GHC 7.8 is pretty near release.
>
> And while I know that we really like to have a GHC out for a while, and
> perhaps see the .1 release, before we incorporate it into the Platform,
> this GHC, while including many new and anticipated things, seems pretty
> well hammered on.
>
> Combine that with the now two-month late (all my fault) HP release for
> 2013.4.0.0 isn't slated to really have all that much new in it, in part
> because it is the same GHC as the last HP release.
>
> Now - it would really look foolish, and taken poorly (methinks) if we
> release a HP this month - only to have GHC 7.8 release early Feb. Folks
> would really be head scratching, and wondering about the platform.
>
> SO - I'm proposing ditching the now late 2013.4.0.0 (I admit, I'm finding
> it hard to get excited by it!) and instead move right to putting out
> 2014.2.0.0 - aimed for mid-March to mid-April.
>
> This release would have several big changes:
>
>- GHC 7.8
>- New shake based build for the Platform
>- Support for validation via package tests
>- Support for a "server variant" (no OpenGL or other GUI stuff if we
>had any)
>- Automated version info w/historical version matrix page
>- Several significant packages: I'd like to see Aeson at the very
>least, updated OpenGL stuff
>
> I'd also propose changes for the Mac build (though this is obviously
> independent):
>
>- Built from GHC source, not dist. release. (guarantees consistent
>release)
>- Only 64bit (I know, controversial...)
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
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Re: A modest proposal (re the Platform)

[Johan Tibell]

+1
On Jan 19, 2014 3:15 PM, "Mark Lentczner"  wrote:

> Looks like GHC 7.8 is pretty near release.
>
> And while I know that we really like to have a GHC out for a while, and
> perhaps see the .1 release, before we incorporate it into the Platform,
> this GHC, while including many new and anticipated things, seems pretty
> well hammered on.
>
> Combine that with the now two-month late (all my fault) HP release for
> 2013.4.0.0 isn't slated to really have all that much new in it, in part
> because it is the same GHC as the last HP release.
>
> Now - it would really look foolish, and taken poorly (methinks) if we
> release a HP this month - only to have GHC 7.8 release early Feb. Folks
> would really be head scratching, and wondering about the platform.
>
> SO - I'm proposing ditching the now late 2013.4.0.0 (I admit, I'm finding
> it hard to get excited by it!) and instead move right to putting out
> 2014.2.0.0 - aimed for mid-March to mid-April.
>
> This release would have several big changes:
>
>- GHC 7.8
>- New shake based build for the Platform
>- Support for validation via package tests
>- Support for a "server variant" (no OpenGL or other GUI stuff if we
>had any)
>- Automated version info w/historical version matrix page
>- Several significant packages: I'd like to see Aeson at the very
>least, updated OpenGL stuff
>
> I'd also propose changes for the Mac build (though this is obviously
> independent):
>
>- Built from GHC source, not dist. release. (guarantees consistent
>release)
>- Only 64bit (I know, controversial...)
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
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>
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