Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Michael, 

I certainly agree with your concerns.

My statement includes my own implication that a good documentarian would 
explain the broader purpose of the feature as well as its results and means to 
manage it. My initial statement was terse enough that this aspect was missing. 

To explicate further, the documents would include: 

* a brief note regarding the reason for closing the books (i.e., the 
historical); 

* an explanation of what exactly the GnuCash CB feature does; 

* an explanation of how to reverse it; and,

* a description of how some reports handle the results. 

David T. 

P.S. I would hesitate to address users' misunderstandings of the accounting 
principles in GnuCash documentation for the reasons you often cite. I am not an 
accountant and rules vary by jurisdiction. I've always attempted just to 
explain clearly what the software *does* and let users figure out what they 
want to do with it based on those capabilities. 



On Mar 25, 2023, 4:57 PM, at 4:57 PM, Michael or Penny Novack 
 wrote:
>On 3/25/2023 4:28 AM, David T. wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> As a past documentation contributor, I'd assume any person taking up 
>> this bug would attempt to document the functionality of the newly 
>> added feature, regardless of the initial bug request.
>>
>> David T.
>
>What I meant is that it is easy for those inexperienced with 
>bookkeeping, especially those who never did it the old way, to conflate
>
>"close the books" (as a logical operation) and "close the books" using 
>this particular gnucash tool. We see lots of this sort of confusion
>with 
>"opening the books" using the opening value wizard vs doing it the old 
>fashioned way with explicit transaction(s)  to enter the initial
>values.
>
>It might seem unnecessary since most newbies hopefully read the 
>tutorial, etc. but some new to gnucash but experienced with other 
>similar software (like QuickBooks  not Quicken) or very experienced
>
>with old fashioned bookkeeping might jump right in and do things the
>old 
>way (without the shortcut/tools). This is also just like the 
>(unexpected?) behavior that to specify options for a report you first 
>run the report default and THEN  use edit=?options to specify the
>options.
>
>Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Adrien Monteleone]

Aha, good to know Stan, thanks!

Regards,
Adrien

On 3/24/23 6:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:

Thanks, Adrien.

I started at  then followed "Q: I
think I found a bug. How do I report it?" to
. From there I searched the bug
database as described under "Triage". Not finding my issue already
reported, I continued to "Commenting on existing bugs or entering new
ones" and to "Open a new GnuCash bug", at
.

I attach a screen shot of what I got. I just proceeded to fill in the
blanks, since the status of NEW (red ellipse) was already filled in. I
didn't try any of the menu selections (green ellipse), since I was
apparently already on the screen I needed. Now, following your email, I
see that I would have got the screen you showed if I had clicked that
apparently-redundant New, but in fairness I don't think there was any
way for me to know that up front.

All of that said, I got a notice that John Ralls had changed the bug
from General to Documentation. And he also emailed me to say that he was
going to fix up the Wiki page to avoid this problem for the future.


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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 3/25/2023 4:28 AM, David T. wrote:

Michael,

As a past documentation contributor, I'd assume any person taking up 
this bug would attempt to document the functionality of the newly 
added feature, regardless of the initial bug request.


David T.


What I meant is that it is easy for those inexperienced with 
bookkeeping, especially those who never did it the old way, to conflate 
"close the books" (as a logical operation) and "close the books" using 
this particular gnucash tool. We see lots of this sort of confusion with 
"opening the books" using the opening value wizard vs doing it the old 
fashioned way with explicit transaction(s)  to enter the initial values.


It might seem unnecessary since most newbies hopefully read the 
tutorial, etc. but some new to gnucash but experienced with other 
similar software (like QuickBooks  not Quicken) or very experienced 
with old fashioned bookkeeping might jump right in and do things the old 
way (without the shortcut/tools). This is also just like the 
(unexpected?) behavior that to specify options for a report you first 
run the report default and THEN  use edit=?options to specify the options.


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Michael,

As a past documentation contributor, I'd assume any person taking up this bug 
would attempt to document the functionality of the newly added feature, 
regardless of the initial bug request.

David T.​

On Mar 25, 2023, 02:31, at 02:31, Michael or Penny Novack 
 wrote:
>On 3/24/2023 5:48 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>> When you first click 'New' or 'File a Bug', you get the option to 
>> select Documentation. (see screenshot) I'm not sure if you can move
>it 
>> after filing, but if not, one of the devs can do that for you. 
>
>Care should be used in defining this bug. The documentation change 
>should make it clear that this refers to closing the books using the 
>built in clod=se the books tool.
>
>As opposed to the logical/bookkeeping process "close the books" itself 
>(possibly done without the tool, in other words, "manually". THOSE 
>transactions would probably not be recognized as special. In which case
>
>would still need to be careful to run the Income
>Statement/P/Statement 
>of Revenues and Expenses (the different names refer to how different 
>types of entities know this report) BEFORE closing the books.
>
>If LITERALLY modelling the old way, would have closed to a special 
>account with a name like P and then THAT closed to equity by the net 
>profit of loss that brings it to zero.
>
>
>Michael D Novack
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[David T. via gnucash-user]

If you've ever filled out an online form before, you should be fine. I'd simply 
copy your original email and paste it in the description. 

David T. 



On Mar 24, 2023, 11:44 PM, at 11:44 PM, Stan Brown  
wrote:
>Sigh. You're right, of course. I've never filed a bug report before, so
>I was hoping someone else would do it for me. But I'll figure it out --
>it's the least I can do in return for all the benefits I receive from
>using GnuCash.
>
>Stan Brown
>Tehachapi, CA, USA
>https://BrownMath.com
>
>On 2023-03-24 12:46, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>> Maybe file a documentation bug for tracking?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>> 
>> On 3/23/23 6:06 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> In 4.13, the Close Book help text, which is the Close Book section
>of
>>> the installed manual, includes the following text under "How It
>Works",
>>> as the second paragraph under "Necessity":
>>>
>>> "In fact, closing the books reduces the usefulness of the standard
>>> reports because the reports don’t currently understand closing
>>> transactions. So from their point of view it simply looks like the
>net
>>> income or expense in each account for a given period was simply
>zero. "
>>>
>>> That paragraph doesn't seem to be accurate any more. I closed the
>books
>>> in 4.13 and the ran an income statement for the full year. The
>account
>>> totals were given just as they were before I closed the book.
>>>
>>> Can whoever is maintaining the book look at deleting that paragraph,
>>> please? (And please note: This is the installed manual, not the one
>on
>>> the website. I have GnuCash running in a virtual machine with no
>>> Internet.)
>>>
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Stan Brown]

Thanks, Adrien.

I started at  then followed "Q: I
think I found a bug. How do I report it?" to
. From there I searched the bug
database as described under "Triage". Not finding my issue already
reported, I continued to "Commenting on existing bugs or entering new
ones" and to "Open a new GnuCash bug", at
.

I attach a screen shot of what I got. I just proceeded to fill in the
blanks, since the status of NEW (red ellipse) was already filled in. I
didn't try any of the menu selections (green ellipse), since I was
apparently already on the screen I needed. Now, following your email, I
see that I would have got the screen you showed if I had clicked that
apparently-redundant New, but in fairness I don't think there was any
way for me to know that up front.

All of that said, I got a notice that John Ralls had changed the bug
from General to Documentation. And he also emailed me to say that he was
going to fix up the Wiki page to avoid this problem for the future.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com

On 2023-03-24 14:48, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> When you first click 'New' or 'File a Bug', you get the option to select
> Documentation. (see screenshot) I'm not sure if you can move it after
> filing, but if not, one of the devs can do that for you.
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien
> 
> On 3/24/23 4:05 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> "Documentation" doesn't seem to be an option, so I used "General" -- as
>> others have done, apparently.
>>
>> Bug report  now entered.
> 
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 3/24/2023 5:48 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
When you first click 'New' or 'File a Bug', you get the option to 
select Documentation. (see screenshot) I'm not sure if you can move it 
after filing, but if not, one of the devs can do that for you. 


Care should be used in defining this bug. The documentation change 
should make it clear that this refers to closing the books using the 
built in clod=se the books tool.


As opposed to the logical/bookkeeping process "close the books" itself 
(possibly done without the tool, in other words, "manually". THOSE 
transactions would probably not be recognized as special. In which case 
would still need to be careful to run the Income Statement/P/Statement 
of Revenues and Expenses (the different names refer to how different 
types of entities know this report) BEFORE closing the books.


If LITERALLY modelling the old way, would have closed to a special 
account with a name like P and then THAT closed to equity by the net 
profit of loss that brings it to zero.



Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Adrien Monteleone]

When you first click 'New' or 'File a Bug', you get the option to select 
Documentation. (see screenshot) I'm not sure if you can move it after 
filing, but if not, one of the devs can do that for you.


Regards,
Adrien

On 3/24/23 4:05 PM, Stan Brown wrote:

"Documentation" doesn't seem to be an option, so I used "General" -- as
others have done, apparently.

Bug report  now entered.___
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Stan Brown]

"Documentation" doesn't seem to be an option, so I used "General" -- as
others have done, apparently.

Bug report  now entered.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com


On 2023-03-24 12:46, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> Maybe file a documentation bug for tracking?
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 3/23/23 6:06 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> In 4.13, the Close Book help text, which is the Close Book section of
>> the installed manual, includes the following text under "How It Works",
>> as the second paragraph under "Necessity":
>>
(etc.)
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Stan Brown]

Sigh. You're right, of course. I've never filed a bug report before, so
I was hoping someone else would do it for me. But I'll figure it out --
it's the least I can do in return for all the benefits I receive from
using GnuCash.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com

On 2023-03-24 12:46, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> Maybe file a documentation bug for tracking?
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien
> 
> On 3/23/23 6:06 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> In 4.13, the Close Book help text, which is the Close Book section of
>> the installed manual, includes the following text under "How It Works",
>> as the second paragraph under "Necessity":
>>
>> "In fact, closing the books reduces the usefulness of the standard
>> reports because the reports don’t currently understand closing
>> transactions. So from their point of view it simply looks like the net
>> income or expense in each account for a given period was simply zero. "
>>
>> That paragraph doesn't seem to be accurate any more. I closed the books
>> in 4.13 and the ran an income statement for the full year. The account
>> totals were given just as they were before I closed the book.
>>
>> Can whoever is maintaining the book look at deleting that paragraph,
>> please? (And please note: This is the installed manual, not the one on
>> the website. I have GnuCash running in a virtual machine with no
>> Internet.)
>>
> 
> ___
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Re: [GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Adrien Monteleone]

Maybe file a documentation bug for tracking?

Regards,
Adrien

On 3/23/23 6:06 PM, Stan Brown wrote:

In 4.13, the Close Book help text, which is the Close Book section of
the installed manual, includes the following text under "How It Works",
as the second paragraph under "Necessity":

"In fact, closing the books reduces the usefulness of the standard
reports because the reports don’t currently understand closing
transactions. So from their point of view it simply looks like the net
income or expense in each account for a given period was simply zero. "

That paragraph doesn't seem to be accurate any more. I closed the books
in 4.13 and the ran an income statement for the full year. The account
totals were given just as they were before I closed the book.

Can whoever is maintaining the book look at deleting that paragraph,
please? (And please note: This is the installed manual, not the one on
the website. I have GnuCash running in a virtual machine with no Internet.)



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[GNC] Error in "Close Book" help text

[Stan Brown]

In 4.13, the Close Book help text, which is the Close Book section of
the installed manual, includes the following text under "How It Works",
as the second paragraph under "Necessity":

"In fact, closing the books reduces the usefulness of the standard
reports because the reports don’t currently understand closing
transactions. So from their point of view it simply looks like the net
income or expense in each account for a given period was simply zero. "

That paragraph doesn't seem to be accurate any more. I closed the books
in 4.13 and the ran an income statement for the full year. The account
totals were given just as they were before I closed the book.

Can whoever is maintaining the book look at deleting that paragraph,
please? (And please note: This is the installed manual, not the one on
the website. I have GnuCash running in a virtual machine with no Internet.)

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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