Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
On 4/11/2019 11:14 AM, David Cousens wrote: Mike The problem I see for free software developers here is to register as a developer for the software, you have to be an existing business as you require a registration only available to an existing registered business. SDKs and APIs which appear to be written in C# are only available to the registered developers. Yes, I know little in detail about the laws of Britain or Australia. I do know that "more democratic" in the sense of not having a defined constitution/bill of rights << yes, most of us think of a constitution as a good thing BUT it does limit the will of the majority -- it says that some things we DON'T decide by vote, etc. >> On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the only "corporate entities" that are allowed are "for profit businesses". In the US, an "entity", for profit or not has a "tax ID number" << EIN for a corporate entity, SS# for a human person. Thus the 501c3's that I keep books for have one << just because a non-profit doesn't PAY taxes doesn't mean it doesn't file anything, doesn't have to be identifiable to the tax people >> In my working days, I worked for MassMutual Life Insurance and at least then we did software in house (it's what I did, design and write software). One of the worlds largest financials but technically not a "for profit business" << it is legally a "consumer co-op", owned by the policy holders >> Do you imagine that if MM applied (for what was being required to write this software) would be turned down because "not a for profit business". I don't know the details of how the gnucash project is organized in the legal sense, but it is some kind of a non-profit entity. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
Mike The article was a lot clearer than the headline implied about the intention of the legislation as were a couple of others I later found. The situation with regard to the powers of government is different in both Australia and the UK and the US. We have privileges extended to us rather than guaranteed constitutional rights as such. The powers of our government particularly wrt to personal liberty are limited and established much more by legal convention/case law rather than specific clauses of our constiution than in the US. The tax office in Australia has a web portal for individual tax payers into which we can enter information. Our tax office collects a lot of information on individuals directly from employers, banks, superannuation providers etc and a lot of what they have collected can be preloaded into your tax return. We can also submit through registered tax agents. Our tax office did create tax software which you could download and use on your own computerhowever that has been deprecated in favour of the web protal and commercially available software Where it is changing is in the returns for businesses which has a plan to be be totally electronic submisssion in the future with requirements that establish an auditable trail. I reviewed what was available directly from their website about two months ago and it was mainly good intentions and no documentation. I went through it again todayand there have been a lot of additional documents added recently. They are still full of circular references at this stage however. Once businesses are completely digital I suspect pressure may come on for individual tax payers to also submit The problem I see for free software developers here is to register as a developer for the software, you have to be an existing business as you require a registration only available to an existing registered business. SDKs and APIs which appear to be written in C# are only available to the registered developers. The messaging protocols and data formats used are being developed by a collaboration of the Tax Office with some existing software developers which does give that group of current developers a considerable competitive advantage over new entries into the market. This effectively cuts developers of free software out of the loop unless they are able to register a business and makes it hard to get enough information to even create export files from GnuCash for import to commercially available software which can do the digital submission. This was what I initially set out to investigate. The upside of that is that the protocols being used are industry standard both for validation and messaging which uses XBRL,JSON and XML for the message formats. I haven't been able to establish whether the exchanged messages are encrypted or not at this stage but one would hope they would be to prevent interception of data streams to validated users. Business registration requires the issue of a key, but it is not clear in what I have waded through so far whether this is also used for encryption or only for user validation. The initial messages around the UK Making Tax Digital were equally confusing and appeared to be far more draconian than what has eventuated so far. Public scrutiny never goes astray. i think there is some value in comparing how our various governments do these things. Possibly little chance of influencing them directly but awareness at least of the differnet approaches used in other countries and jurisdictions helps . David - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
On 4/11/19 8:45 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > Not how I read that article. It simply said that the IRS could not > develop/distribute free tax software. It said nothing about whether > anybody else could do so if they wished. That the government is > forbidden to do something is very different from saying that an NGO, a > non-profit, or for that matter a for profit company cannot do so. > > There are LOTS of things forbidden to the government, some forbidden by > the Constitution let alone by statute, that are allowed to persons or > other entities with "personhood". U.S. Constitution - Amendment 10 Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People <> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- .~. Jean-David Beyer /V\ PGP-Key:166D840A 0C610C8B /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey ^^-^^ 09:50:01 up 1 day, 20:53, 2 users, load average: 4.99, 4.48, 4.34 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
On 4/11/2019 12:33 AM, David Cousens wrote: Just noticed this post. https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the Brits. Not how I read that article. It simply said that the IRS could not develop/distribute free tax software. It said nothing about whether anybody else could do so if they wished. That the government is forbidden to do something is very different from saying that an NGO, a non-profit, or for that matter a for profit company cannot do so. There are LOTS of things forbidden to the government, some forbidden by the Constitution let alone by statute, that are allowed to persons or other entities with "personhood". I know nothing about what the Brits or Aussies are but I seriously doubt quite as you have been describing. For example, even there I doubt they are saying that will make something available just to"for profit" entities. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
> > A comment elsewhere in this thread is that GnuCash does not tax submission > or preparation. I think that this will have to change - probably by > development of a collection of country-specific tax plugins or tax reports. > The reason is that governments in insisting on tax being done > electronically AND (in the UK at > least) the relevant numbers MUST NOT be copied by hand, ie you could not > copy from GnuCash to some other s/ware; at minimum export to a file and > import elsewhere would be needed. > > Some will think: why use GnuCash if I am going to need to use something > else as well - so we might as well bite the bullet. > Patches welcome! > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:33:30PM -0500, David Cousens wrote: > Just noticed this post. > https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. > Here is another take on it: https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-ban-the-government-from-offering-free-online-tax-filing-thank-turbotax I don't think that GnuCash would be banned; what is/will-be banned is the USA Tax service from developing its own free tax submission s/ware; it is not a ban on free tax submission s/ware being developed by others. What is clear is that it is corruption at the heart of the USA government, money being used to buy laws that benefit corporations to the detriment of 'the people'. This is not unique, neither is the USA unique in this - unfortunately. End of political rant - sorry. A comment elsewhere in this thread is that GnuCash does not tax submission or preparation. I think that this will have to change - probably by development of a collection of country-specific tax plugins or tax reports. The reason is that governments in insisting on tax being done electronically AND (in the UK at least) the relevant numbers MUST NOT be copied by hand, ie you could not copy from GnuCash to some other s/ware; at minimum export to a file and import elsewhere would be needed. Some will think: why use GnuCash if I am going to need to use something else as well - so we might as well bite the bullet. > Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be > profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the > Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to > join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full > access to the information needed to build in software communication to the > ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced > developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium > > David Cousens -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
"Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be profound." With all due respect, that's a ridiculous conclusion, given what GnuCash is, how it's used, and what it's used for... -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
One does have to account for the media's tendency to overdramatize things. We do have a web form based submission system for indiviuals in Australia or you have the option of submitting through a tax agent. The business reporting currently has also a similar web portal, but I did see a plan in place to move business reporting towards all electronic reporting from software enabled for it in the near future. Assumption is that businesses will use and can afford products which are enabled for this. Not so good for charitable, not-for-profit and small startup businesses perhaps.There are software products similar to turbo tax currently available and in development here. It does seem that the information is available here in a series of circularly self referncing documents. Last time I explored this I ended up with 10-12 documents open in Libre Office and 2-3 instances of my browser each with 10-15 tabs open. I came away very little the wiser in terms of how I might write software to do this. It does seem to be a work in progress and I have noticed a few new documents produced by the consortium are now appearing which make it clearer and fill in gaps and available to the public at no cost. I think many countries have the common problem of governments governing for the benefits of major corporations at the expense of their constituents and handing off the reponsibilities of government off to private corporations to profit from. Our major political parties also put aside their differences here when it comes to turning the screws on the taxpayer so I think it is a problem by no means unique to the US. David - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
I’m not a fan of the corporate protectionism in the bill, but it doesn’t change anything practical-wise for anyone. It enshrines the status quo. The IRS currently does not have free tax filing software made available to taxpayers. This law prohibits the IRS from ever developing it. (a protectionist kickback to Intuit and H Block) This will have no effect on GnuCash. The bill doesn’t prohibit free tax software from the private sector, it prohibits the IRS from developing it and making it available. If the bill doesn’t pass, the IRS intends to proceed with plans to develop a free .gov filing system and to mail out pre-filled forms with the data they have on file about you. (essentially, a "check the box that’s correct and sign here, don’t forget to include your payment” form, for those who don’t want to file electronically) There was an agreement in place that the IRS would not create such a system (undercutting the aforementioned companies) as long as those companies offered free filing to anyone making less than $66k per year. While they do offer such free filing, they tried to hide it and try to cross-sell/upsell other services so that only a small percentage of those eligible actually file for free. Because of this, the IRS has intentions not to continue the agreement. Regards, Adrien > On Apr 10, 2019, at 11:33 PM, David Cousens wrote: > > Just noticed this post. > https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. > > Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be > profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the > Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to > join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full > access to the information needed to build in software communication to the > ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced > developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium > > David Cousens ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
For those who use gnucash for personal finances, I don't see this being important (to that goal). As Stuart notes, gnucash provides a way to understand your finances and prepare to file your taxes, but it doesn't purport to know anything about tax law. Probably the bigger issue in the U.S. is the complexity of the tax system and the creation of an expectation that tax filing is and should be hard, should require assistance. (A huge fraction of U.S. tax payers pay for tax preparation assitance. In many countries, it is a rare exception.) In many European countries, for example, it's a non-event for most people: either you don't have to file anything at all (assuming an "uninteresting" financial life) or you just have to rubber stampe what the tax authorities compute for you (e.g., click a button that says "ok"). A very small fraction of people have "interesting" tax lives and so have to do something. The UK and France, probably among others, have rules that make the use of FOSS accounting software difficult or illegal. In France it's under the guise of preventing people from cheating on VAT. It's anti-competitive, of course, but if we were going to start talking about anti-competitive laws, this might not be the most influential place to start. Jeff Abrahamson http://p27.eu/jeff/ http://transport-nantes.com/ On 11/04/2019 07:28, Stuart McGraw wrote: > On 4/10/19 10:33 PM, David Cousens wrote: >> Just noticed this post. >> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. >> >> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be >> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way >> as the >> Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to >> join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to >> get full >> access to the information needed to build in software communication >> to the >> ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced >> developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium > > I'm don't think will have any effect on Gnucash today because Gnucash > does not do tax preparation: filling out IRS forms and submitting them > electronically to the IRS. I doubt it would, given the yearly changes > in the forms and regulations. > > Never the less it is discouraging news. The IRS could, and should > provide active forms, with the info they have on taxpayers pre-entered > and with interactive help for entering the rest of it. The U.S. > Democrats > and Republicans seem to have no problems coming together when the target > in screwing American tax payers to the benefit of large corporations. > Business as usual. > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. -- Jeff Abrahamson +33 6 24 40 01 57 +44 7920 594 255 http://p27.eu/jeff/ http://transport-nantes.com/ ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
On 4/10/19 10:33 PM, David Cousens wrote: Just noticed this post. https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full access to the information needed to build in software communication to the ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium I'm don't think will have any effect on Gnucash today because Gnucash does not do tax preparation: filling out IRS forms and submitting them electronically to the IRS. I doubt it would, given the yearly changes in the forms and regulations. Never the less it is discouraging news. The IRS could, and should provide active forms, with the info they have on taxpayers pre-entered and with interactive help for entering the rest of it. The U.S. Democrats and Republicans seem to have no problems coming together when the target in screwing American tax payers to the benefit of large corporations. Business as usual. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
While it may be lamentable that the US government is headed down this path, if is not necessarily the same disaster... Since Gnucash is not tax software, and I am not a professional tax expert, I use Gnucash for tracking my finances (including using tax options extensively), and Turbotax to submit my taxes. I use Gnucash to verify the official documents that I receive from various agencies. David On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:05, David Cousens wrote: Just noticed this post. https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full access to the information needed to build in software communication to the ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium David Cousens - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
[GNC] US Bans Free tax Software
Just noticed this post. https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs. Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the Brits. Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full access to the information needed to build in software communication to the ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium David Cousens - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
