Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Matthew Pounsett
On 22 May 2018 at 21:02, Adrien Monteleone 
wrote:

>
>
> >
> > There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no
> taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table).  But with a bit of
> math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax
> line after it.  It’s a bit finicky, but I think it'd work.
>
> I was about to note that math wasn’t necessary, but I see from your other
> reply, you are in a VAT jurisdiction. If the receipts don’t specify the VAT
> amount separately, then yes, you’ll have to do some math. Fortunately,
> GnuCash can help. You can enter math operators directly into quantity and
> value fields and it will do the heavy lifting.


Yeah, I do that sort of thing all over the place within GnuCash.

I ended up being forced to go back to separating out the taxes in the
employee voucher because paying off a bill from a liability doesn't quite
work right.  The issue is that the tax on the bill is applied to the
correct tax liability, but there's nothing to offset that in the employee
reimbursement liability.  So when I finish paying off everything, it
doesn't balance out.

Doing this "the hard way" by entering tax-creditable employee expenses as
two line items is less work than trying to figure out how to balance the
tax transaction correctly.

Thanks very much to everyone who responded to this thread.. even though I
didn't find a way to do this as I'd like, it's been a very helpful
discussion.
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Adrien Monteleone
So if I travel to Oregon in my car that takes regular gasoline, I have to avail 
myself of ‘full-service’ and can’t pump it myself?


> On May 22, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Rich Shepard  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> 
>> No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be
>> reimbursed for. The employee includes as part of their expense report a
>> receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for
>> the reasons stated in my first email).
> 
> Matthew,
> 
>  Thanks for clarifying. Since you're re-imbursing your employee your
> bookkeeping system (GnuCash) doesn't need to know the vendor. If I were you
> and wanted to track employee re-imbursements by vendor I'd keep a
> spreadsheet or text file with that information. Or, I'd enter the vendor's
> name in the transaction's memo field.
> 
>> You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to
>> balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales? If so, how
>> do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to
>> reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved?
> 
>  Oregon, for better or worse, does not have any sales taxes. We have high
> property and income taxes instead so we residents pay for what visitors get
> for free. For example, a cousin of mine lived in northern California and
> built his house there. He drove up to Medford, OR, to purchase all the
> materials -- tax free -- and saved all the California tax amounts. We also
> cannot pump gasoline into our vehicles (unless they're motorcycles), but I
> can drive my diesel pickup truck to the same station and pump the diesel
> fuel myself. Never look for logic (or rationality) when it comes to
> politics.
> 
>  Your accountant can probably advise you how to keep your books for
> employee expenses, vendors, and sales taxes. I've had my accountant advise
> me how to handle transactions that are not blazingly obvious to me as a
> non-finance professional.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Rich
> 
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Adrien Monteleone


> On May 22, 2018, at 6:40 PM, Matthew Pounsett  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 22 May 2018 at 19:36, Adrien Monteleone  
> wrote:
> Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to 
> balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have 
> no bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it.
> 
> Sales tax on sales is a positive liability that needs to be paid to the 
> government.  Sales tax on purchases is a negative liability that offsets 
> sales tax on sales, and reduces the amount payable to the government.  So, I 
> need to track it.

Be sure to clear this with someone knowledgeable in your jurisdiction. 
Purchases you make for your own business use (but not resold or incorporated 
into your products) might be a direct expense of the business and may not be 
able to offset VAT due on your sales.

An example of this might be VAT paid on office supplies for general 
administration. You are using them directly, and not reselling or using them as 
components in your final product. That VAT in some places is simply a business 
expense.

Regards,
Adrien

>  
> 
> Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for services, 
> product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a final product, 
> then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on those expenses. 
> (which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4 months about as I 
> mentioned.)
> 
> Yes, exactly.  See above.
>  


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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Adrien Monteleone


> On May 22, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Matthew Pounsett  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 22 May 2018 at 19:20, Adrien Monteleone  
> wrote:
> Matt,
> 
> There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the tax 
> issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful. (prefix 
> your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the quotes)
> 
> On the #1:
> 
> Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option near 
> the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in the 
> relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices)
> 
> Ah okay.. that will help, I think
>  
> 
> #2:
> 
> There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above 
> recommendation for #1, the second does not.
> 
> If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just enter 
> a line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or something 
> similar)
> This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the 
> registers clearly.
> 
> Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they set 
> up a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes account 
> just for use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of a special 
> rate for this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they just 
> entered expense items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher posted the 
> correct tax to the proper account. (they also had a VAT complication which is 
> what I think they were trying to sort out in the thread)
> 
> There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no 
> taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table).  But with a bit of 
> math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax line 
> after it.  It’s a bit finicky, but I think it'd work.

I was about to note that math wasn’t necessary, but I see from your other 
reply, you are in a VAT jurisdiction. If the receipts don’t specify the VAT 
amount separately, then yes, you’ll have to do some math. Fortunately, GnuCash 
can help. You can enter math operators directly into quantity and value fields 
and it will do the heavy lifting.

For example, let’s say an item that costs 100.00 and the VAT on your purhcases 
is 20% inclusive (and you don’t know what the ’pre-tax’ amount is)

Enter this in your amount field: “100/1.2” (that’s the post-tax price divided 
by 1 + the tax rate)

This will result in the pre-tax price. (in this case 83.33)

For the VAT line item, you can enter: “100-“result from above, OR 
“100-(100/1.2)”. (in this case, 16.67)

So you can nest operations. The above looks easy, but when the tax inclusive 
amount and the tax rate aren’t pretty, it’s easier to let GnuCash do all the 
math.

Note, there will be some rounding issues at times. You’ll either have to decide 
where to adjust or consult a CPA on any rules.


> 
> While testing out various options based on your email I realized I have 
> another reason for getting employee expenses into bills:  I've got a few 
> cases where a regular supplier's bills have been paid out of pocket rather 
> than direct from the company.  It’d be nice to have those tracked along side 
> the bills that are paid normally.
> 

This was exactly the case I was considering when I suggested ‘paying’ Vendor 
Bills with offsets to Liabilities:Employee Expenses.

> 
> If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay them 
> with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the 
> Voucher entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you 
> reimburse the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point in 
> this however unless you really need to track how much those employees (and 
> ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be immediately 
> ‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there won’t be any 
> related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable any more.
> 
> To make sure I understand what you're suggesting.. that'd be 
> 
> 1) enter employee expenses as vendor bills, posted to Liabilities:Employee 
> Expenses instead of the relevant expense account, pay from assets as usual

No, I was suggesting to post between expense accounts (the line items) and 
Liabilities:Employee Expenses, but as noted, the feature may not let you.

Regardless of if you use Vouchers or Bills, the line-items should be posting to 
their proper expense accounts.

The first option I offered was to enter the expenses in Vendor Bills (with true 
Vendor as the Vendor) with line-items posting to their proper expense accounts, 
but instead of posting to A/P (on the posting window) instead post to 
Liabilities:Employee Expenses. As noted, the business features may not let you 
do this by default. Certainly, that account HAS to be a simple liability type. 
It CANNOT be of type A/P. 

Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Rich Shepard

On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote:


No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be
reimbursed for. The employee includes as part of their expense report a
receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for
the reasons stated in my first email).


Matthew,

  Thanks for clarifying. Since you're re-imbursing your employee your
bookkeeping system (GnuCash) doesn't need to know the vendor. If I were you
and wanted to track employee re-imbursements by vendor I'd keep a
spreadsheet or text file with that information. Or, I'd enter the vendor's
name in the transaction's memo field.


You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to
balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales? If so, how
do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to
reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved?


  Oregon, for better or worse, does not have any sales taxes. We have high
property and income taxes instead so we residents pay for what visitors get
for free. For example, a cousin of mine lived in northern California and
built his house there. He drove up to Medford, OR, to purchase all the
materials -- tax free -- and saved all the California tax amounts. We also
cannot pump gasoline into our vehicles (unless they're motorcycles), but I
can drive my diesel pickup truck to the same station and pump the diesel
fuel myself. Never look for logic (or rationality) when it comes to
politics.

  Your accountant can probably advise you how to keep your books for
employee expenses, vendors, and sales taxes. I've had my accountant advise
me how to handle transactions that are not blazingly obvious to me as a
non-finance professional.

Best regards,

Rich

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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Matthew Pounsett
On 22 May 2018 at 19:36, Adrien Monteleone 
wrote:

> Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to
> balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have
> no bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it.
>

Sales tax on sales is a positive liability that needs to be paid to the
government.  Sales tax on purchases is a negative liability that offsets
sales tax on sales, and reduces the amount payable to the government.  So,
I need to track it.


>
> Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for
> services, product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a
> final product, then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on
> those expenses. (which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4
> months about as I mentioned.)
>

Yes, exactly.  See above.
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Matthew Pounsett
On 22 May 2018 at 19:20, Adrien Monteleone 
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the
> tax issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful.
> (prefix your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the
> quotes)
>
> On the #1:
>
> Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option
> near the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in
> the relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices)
>

Ah okay.. that will help, I think


>
> #2:
>
> There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above
> recommendation for #1, the second does not.
>
> If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just
> enter a line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or
> something similar)
> This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the
> registers clearly.
>
> Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they
> set up a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes
> account just for use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of
> a special rate for this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they
> just entered expense items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher
> posted the correct tax to the proper account. (they also had a VAT
> complication which is what I think they were trying to sort out in the
> thread)
>

There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no
taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table).  But with a bit of
math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax
line after it.  It's a bit finicky, but I think it'd work.

While testing out various options based on your email I realized I have
another reason for getting employee expenses into bills:  I've got a few
cases where a regular supplier's bills have been paid out of pocket rather
than direct from the company.  It'd be nice to have those tracked along
side the bills that are paid normally.


> If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay
> them with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the
> Voucher entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you
> reimburse the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point
> in this however unless you really need to track how much those employees
> (and ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be
> immediately ‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there
> won’t be any related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable
> any more.
>

To make sure I understand what you're suggesting.. that'd be

1) enter employee expenses as vendor bills, posted to Liabilities:Employee
Expenses instead of the relevant expense account, pay from assets as usual
2) enter vendor bills, posted to the appropriate expense account, pay from
Liabilities:Employee Expenses?

That seems like it could work.  It's similar to what I was suggesting
before, just using vendor bills instead of employee vouchers for #1.


>
> Or, if you really needed to track Employee Expenses due separate from A/P,
> and still want to use the voucher system, then ‘pay’ the Voucher with a
> similar offset to the Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. Then later pay
> down that account from an asset. (but you’ll lose the ability to track each
> Voucher due separately since they are ‘already paid’ within GnuCash)
>

I don't particularly care about tracking due expenses from the rest of A/P.

Thanks for your suggestions!
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Adrien Monteleone
Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to 
balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have no 
bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it.

Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for services, 
product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a final product, 
then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on those expenses. 
(which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4 months about as I 
mentioned.)

Sales Tax on purchases *is* an expense, you just record it in a regular expense 
account.‡

Regards,
Adrien

‡p.s. - be sure to verify these with a local CPA familiar with your 
jurisdiction. The above is general practice in the U.S.


> On May 22, 2018, at 6:21 PM, Matthew Pounsett  wrote:
> 
> On 22 May 2018 at 18:59, Rich Shepard  wrote:
> 
>>  I'm confused by the above. Do you get a bill from a vendor (e.g., Office
>> Depot) for something, and an expense voucher from an employee for the same
>> item?
>> 
> 
> No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be
> reimbursed for.  The employee includes as part of their expense report a
> receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for
> the reasons stated in my first email).
> 
> You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to
> balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales?  If so, how
> do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to
> reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved?
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Adrien Monteleone
Matt,

There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the tax 
issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful. (prefix 
your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the quotes)

On the #1:

Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option near 
the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in the 
relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices)

Unfortunately, there still is no means to jump to the voucher itself from a 
register. (or for that matter, to an invoice or bill) I think this is a general 
enhancement request though, already filed. But if you aren’t consolidating 
splits, you’ll get most of the detail you want. You should also get a voucher # 
in the NUM field for each transaction, but I’ve not tested it. (this does work 
for bills and invoices)

#2:

There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above 
recommendation for #1, the second does not.

If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just enter a 
line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or something similar)
This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the registers 
clearly.

Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they set up 
a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes account just for 
use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of a special rate for 
this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they just entered expense 
items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher posted the correct tax to the 
proper account. (they also had a VAT complication which is what I think they 
were trying to sort out in the thread)

-
Finally, the Voucher should be posting between the various expense accounts in 
the Voucher and A/P. I suppose you could try to post it to a special 
Liabilities:Employee Expenses account, but I don’t see the advantage and you’ll 
lose the ability to track them like you do with them posting to the regular A/P 
account. (this might not even be possible as the business features are finicky 
if you deviate from the included A/R and A/P accounts)

If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay them 
with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the Voucher 
entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you reimburse 
the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point in this 
however unless you really need to track how much those employees (and 
ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be immediately 
‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there won’t be any 
related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable any more.

Or, if you really needed to track Employee Expenses due separate from A/P, and 
still want to use the voucher system, then ‘pay’ the Voucher with a similar 
offset to the Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. Then later pay down that 
account from an asset. (but you’ll lose the ability to track each Voucher due 
separately since they are ‘already paid’ within GnuCash)

If you lose due date tracking for one of the above cases, you might be able to 
get a semblance of it back using some creative scheduled transactions for the 
final reimbursement and future transactions reporting as a substitute for an 
aging report, but it would likely be lots of one-off work. I’d just stick to 
the included functionality if at all possible.

Regards,
Adrien

 
> On May 22, 2018, at 5:04 PM, Matthew Pounsett  wrote:
> 
> I'm just starting to use the business functions of GnuCash.. most things
> I've sorted out fairly easily, but I'm having issues figuring out the best
> way to use Employee expense vouchers.
> 
> The intended use looks pretty straightforward: enter line items attached to
> the appropriate expense account, post, pay the employee.  However, I have
> two problems with that:
> 1) the voucher line item descriptions aren't included in the split
> descriptions in the expense accounts, so it's hard to trace an item back to
> its purpose from looking at an expense ledger
> 2) there's no easy way to deal with taxes in the employee vouchers, so my
> purchases tax is unaccounted for
> 
> So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and
> enter the receipts as vendor bills.  I'm trying to decide how to tie the
> two together.
> 
> My first thought was that employee expenses are obviously a liability,
> however that ends up balancing a liability against a liability
> (Liabilities:Employee Expenses vs. Liabilities:Accounts Payable).  Perhaps
> an asset makes more sense?  Balance Liabilities:Accounts Payable against
> Assets:Employee Expenses, and then pay bills out of that asset?
> 
> While I'm certain using an asset would work, I'm curious how do other
> people do this?
> 
> Cheers,
>   Matt 

Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Rich Shepard

On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote:


Because I'd like to treat the actual vendors as the vendors in this
situation.  I don't see how I could enter an employee expense voucher as a
vendor bill, and then still track a vendor bill with the correct vendor
attached to it.


  I'm confused by the above. Do you get a bill from a vendor (e.g., Office
Depot) for something, and an expense voucher from an employee for the same
item?

  If that's the case, perhaps you can have the 'actual' vendors as vendors
and the employees as the charge back 'project' for the amount.

  If that's not the case, treat each employee as a separate vendor. If you
split the accounts on an expense voucher then the employee's name should be
able to be associated with each transaction.

HTH,

Rich


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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Matthew Pounsett
On 22 May 2018 at 18:21, Rich Shepard  wrote:

> On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
>
> So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and
>> enter the receipts as vendor bills. I'm trying to decide how to tie the
>> two together.
>>
>
> Matthew,
>
>   Why not enter employees as vendors and treat them as any other vendor? As
> a sole practitioner professional services provider I don't have employees
> (tried that a couple of times years ago; didn't work well either time) so I
> may be missing something in your situation.
>
> Because I'd like to treat the actual vendors as the vendors in this
situation.  I don't see how I could enter an employee expense voucher as a
vendor bill, and then still track a vendor bill with the correct vendor
attached to it.
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Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses

2018-05-22 Thread Rich Shepard

On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote:


So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and
enter the receipts as vendor bills. I'm trying to decide how to tie the
two together.


Matthew,

  Why not enter employees as vendors and treat them as any other vendor? As
a sole practitioner professional services provider I don't have employees
(tried that a couple of times years ago; didn't work well either time) so I
may be missing something in your situation.

Best regards,

Rich
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