Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On 22 May 2018 at 21:02, Adrien Monteleonewrote: > > > > > > There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no > taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table). But with a bit of > math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax > line after it. It’s a bit finicky, but I think it'd work. > > I was about to note that math wasn’t necessary, but I see from your other > reply, you are in a VAT jurisdiction. If the receipts don’t specify the VAT > amount separately, then yes, you’ll have to do some math. Fortunately, > GnuCash can help. You can enter math operators directly into quantity and > value fields and it will do the heavy lifting. Yeah, I do that sort of thing all over the place within GnuCash. I ended up being forced to go back to separating out the taxes in the employee voucher because paying off a bill from a liability doesn't quite work right. The issue is that the tax on the bill is applied to the correct tax liability, but there's nothing to offset that in the employee reimbursement liability. So when I finish paying off everything, it doesn't balance out. Doing this "the hard way" by entering tax-creditable employee expenses as two line items is less work than trying to figure out how to balance the tax transaction correctly. Thanks very much to everyone who responded to this thread.. even though I didn't find a way to do this as I'd like, it's been a very helpful discussion. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
So if I travel to Oregon in my car that takes regular gasoline, I have to avail myself of ‘full-service’ and can’t pump it myself? > On May 22, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Rich Shepardwrote: > > On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > >> No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be >> reimbursed for. The employee includes as part of their expense report a >> receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for >> the reasons stated in my first email). > > Matthew, > > Thanks for clarifying. Since you're re-imbursing your employee your > bookkeeping system (GnuCash) doesn't need to know the vendor. If I were you > and wanted to track employee re-imbursements by vendor I'd keep a > spreadsheet or text file with that information. Or, I'd enter the vendor's > name in the transaction's memo field. > >> You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to >> balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales? If so, how >> do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to >> reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved? > > Oregon, for better or worse, does not have any sales taxes. We have high > property and income taxes instead so we residents pay for what visitors get > for free. For example, a cousin of mine lived in northern California and > built his house there. He drove up to Medford, OR, to purchase all the > materials -- tax free -- and saved all the California tax amounts. We also > cannot pump gasoline into our vehicles (unless they're motorcycles), but I > can drive my diesel pickup truck to the same station and pump the diesel > fuel myself. Never look for logic (or rationality) when it comes to > politics. > > Your accountant can probably advise you how to keep your books for > employee expenses, vendors, and sales taxes. I've had my accountant advise > me how to handle transactions that are not blazingly obvious to me as a > non-finance professional. > > Best regards, > > Rich > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
> On May 22, 2018, at 6:40 PM, Matthew Pounsettwrote: > > > > On 22 May 2018 at 19:36, Adrien Monteleone > wrote: > Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to > balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have > no bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it. > > Sales tax on sales is a positive liability that needs to be paid to the > government. Sales tax on purchases is a negative liability that offsets > sales tax on sales, and reduces the amount payable to the government. So, I > need to track it. Be sure to clear this with someone knowledgeable in your jurisdiction. Purchases you make for your own business use (but not resold or incorporated into your products) might be a direct expense of the business and may not be able to offset VAT due on your sales. An example of this might be VAT paid on office supplies for general administration. You are using them directly, and not reselling or using them as components in your final product. That VAT in some places is simply a business expense. Regards, Adrien > > > Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for services, > product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a final product, > then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on those expenses. > (which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4 months about as I > mentioned.) > > Yes, exactly. See above. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
> On May 22, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Matthew Pounsettwrote: > > > > On 22 May 2018 at 19:20, Adrien Monteleone > wrote: > Matt, > > There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the tax > issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful. (prefix > your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the quotes) > > On the #1: > > Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option near > the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in the > relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices) > > Ah okay.. that will help, I think > > > #2: > > There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above > recommendation for #1, the second does not. > > If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just enter > a line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or something > similar) > This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the > registers clearly. > > Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they set > up a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes account > just for use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of a special > rate for this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they just > entered expense items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher posted the > correct tax to the proper account. (they also had a VAT complication which is > what I think they were trying to sort out in the thread) > > There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no > taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table). But with a bit of > math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax line > after it. It’s a bit finicky, but I think it'd work. I was about to note that math wasn’t necessary, but I see from your other reply, you are in a VAT jurisdiction. If the receipts don’t specify the VAT amount separately, then yes, you’ll have to do some math. Fortunately, GnuCash can help. You can enter math operators directly into quantity and value fields and it will do the heavy lifting. For example, let’s say an item that costs 100.00 and the VAT on your purhcases is 20% inclusive (and you don’t know what the ’pre-tax’ amount is) Enter this in your amount field: “100/1.2” (that’s the post-tax price divided by 1 + the tax rate) This will result in the pre-tax price. (in this case 83.33) For the VAT line item, you can enter: “100-“result from above, OR “100-(100/1.2)”. (in this case, 16.67) So you can nest operations. The above looks easy, but when the tax inclusive amount and the tax rate aren’t pretty, it’s easier to let GnuCash do all the math. Note, there will be some rounding issues at times. You’ll either have to decide where to adjust or consult a CPA on any rules. > > While testing out various options based on your email I realized I have > another reason for getting employee expenses into bills: I've got a few > cases where a regular supplier's bills have been paid out of pocket rather > than direct from the company. It’d be nice to have those tracked along side > the bills that are paid normally. > This was exactly the case I was considering when I suggested ‘paying’ Vendor Bills with offsets to Liabilities:Employee Expenses. > > If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay them > with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the > Voucher entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you > reimburse the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point in > this however unless you really need to track how much those employees (and > ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be immediately > ‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there won’t be any > related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable any more. > > To make sure I understand what you're suggesting.. that'd be > > 1) enter employee expenses as vendor bills, posted to Liabilities:Employee > Expenses instead of the relevant expense account, pay from assets as usual No, I was suggesting to post between expense accounts (the line items) and Liabilities:Employee Expenses, but as noted, the feature may not let you. Regardless of if you use Vouchers or Bills, the line-items should be posting to their proper expense accounts. The first option I offered was to enter the expenses in Vendor Bills (with true Vendor as the Vendor) with line-items posting to their proper expense accounts, but instead of posting to A/P (on the posting window) instead post to Liabilities:Employee Expenses. As noted, the business features may not let you do this by default. Certainly, that account HAS to be a simple liability type. It CANNOT be of type A/P.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote: No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be reimbursed for. The employee includes as part of their expense report a receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for the reasons stated in my first email). Matthew, Thanks for clarifying. Since you're re-imbursing your employee your bookkeeping system (GnuCash) doesn't need to know the vendor. If I were you and wanted to track employee re-imbursements by vendor I'd keep a spreadsheet or text file with that information. Or, I'd enter the vendor's name in the transaction's memo field. You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales? If so, how do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved? Oregon, for better or worse, does not have any sales taxes. We have high property and income taxes instead so we residents pay for what visitors get for free. For example, a cousin of mine lived in northern California and built his house there. He drove up to Medford, OR, to purchase all the materials -- tax free -- and saved all the California tax amounts. We also cannot pump gasoline into our vehicles (unless they're motorcycles), but I can drive my diesel pickup truck to the same station and pump the diesel fuel myself. Never look for logic (or rationality) when it comes to politics. Your accountant can probably advise you how to keep your books for employee expenses, vendors, and sales taxes. I've had my accountant advise me how to handle transactions that are not blazingly obvious to me as a non-finance professional. Best regards, Rich ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On 22 May 2018 at 19:36, Adrien Monteleonewrote: > Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to > balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have > no bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it. > Sales tax on sales is a positive liability that needs to be paid to the government. Sales tax on purchases is a negative liability that offsets sales tax on sales, and reduces the amount payable to the government. So, I need to track it. > > Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for > services, product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a > final product, then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on > those expenses. (which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4 > months about as I mentioned.) > Yes, exactly. See above. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On 22 May 2018 at 19:20, Adrien Monteleonewrote: > Matt, > > There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the > tax issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful. > (prefix your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the > quotes) > > On the #1: > > Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option > near the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in > the relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices) > Ah okay.. that will help, I think > > #2: > > There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above > recommendation for #1, the second does not. > > If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just > enter a line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or > something similar) > This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the > registers clearly. > > Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they > set up a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes > account just for use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of > a special rate for this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they > just entered expense items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher > posted the correct tax to the proper account. (they also had a VAT > complication which is what I think they were trying to sort out in the > thread) > There isn't a way to make a line item in an employee voucher taxable (no taxable checkbox, and no field to specify a tax table). But with a bit of math I could reduce the unit price of a taxable item and then add a tax line after it. It's a bit finicky, but I think it'd work. While testing out various options based on your email I realized I have another reason for getting employee expenses into bills: I've got a few cases where a regular supplier's bills have been paid out of pocket rather than direct from the company. It'd be nice to have those tracked along side the bills that are paid normally. > If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay > them with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the > Voucher entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you > reimburse the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point > in this however unless you really need to track how much those employees > (and ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be > immediately ‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there > won’t be any related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable > any more. > To make sure I understand what you're suggesting.. that'd be 1) enter employee expenses as vendor bills, posted to Liabilities:Employee Expenses instead of the relevant expense account, pay from assets as usual 2) enter vendor bills, posted to the appropriate expense account, pay from Liabilities:Employee Expenses? That seems like it could work. It's similar to what I was suggesting before, just using vendor bills instead of employee vouchers for #1. > > Or, if you really needed to track Employee Expenses due separate from A/P, > and still want to use the voucher system, then ‘pay’ the Voucher with a > similar offset to the Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. Then later pay > down that account from an asset. (but you’ll lose the ability to track each > Voucher due separately since they are ‘already paid’ within GnuCash) > I don't particularly care about tracking due expenses from the rest of A/P. Thanks for your suggestions! ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
Sales Tax on sales is *not* an expense or revenue. You shouldn’t need to balance it against anything. It’s a pass-through liability.‡ It should have no bearing on your books other than you have to collect it and remit it. Note, if you are in a VAT jurisdiction and you are reimbursing for services, product or materials that will be resold/incorporated into a final product, then you have a complication with tracking the VAT paid on those expenses. (which there is another thread on the list in the last 3-4 months about as I mentioned.) Sales Tax on purchases *is* an expense, you just record it in a regular expense account.‡ Regards, Adrien ‡p.s. - be sure to verify these with a local CPA familiar with your jurisdiction. The above is general practice in the U.S. > On May 22, 2018, at 6:21 PM, Matthew Pounsettwrote: > > On 22 May 2018 at 18:59, Rich Shepard wrote: > >> I'm confused by the above. Do you get a bill from a vendor (e.g., Office >> Depot) for something, and an expense voucher from an employee for the same >> item? >> > > No, I have an expense item from an employee which they need to be > reimbursed for. The employee includes as part of their expense report a > receipt from the original vendor, which I'd like to track as a bill (for > the reasons stated in my first email). > > You mentioned you don't have employees... in your region can you get to > balance sales tax from purchases against sales tax from sales? If so, how > do you track an out of pocket expense that your corporation needs to > reimburse you for when there are sales taxes involved? > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
Matt, There are others using vouchers on this list as I’ve seen threads on the tax issue before. Try a list search and you might find something helpful. (prefix your search terms with ’site:lists.gnucash.org’ without the quotes) On the #1: Don’t consolidate splits when you post the voucher. (should be an option near the bottom of the post window) That will show the individual splits in the relevant account registers. (same goes for bills and invoices) Unfortunately, there still is no means to jump to the voucher itself from a register. (or for that matter, to an invoice or bill) I think this is a general enhancement request though, already filed. But if you aren’t consolidating splits, you’ll get most of the detail you want. You should also get a voucher # in the NUM field for each transaction, but I’ve not tested it. (this does work for bills and invoices) #2: There are two approaches I can think of, one works well with my above recommendation for #1, the second does not. If you’re entering line items that are being re-imbursed, why not just enter a line item for the tax? (costing it to Expenses:Sales Taxes or something similar) This way you’ll account for it properly and be able to see it in the registers clearly. Alternatively, I think I recall someone discussing here before that they set up a special tax rate that was tied to their Expenses:Sales Taxes account just for use with employee vouchers. (I don’t recall the purpose of a special rate for this, but it seemed to make sense at the time) Then they just entered expense items as taxable and used that rate. The voucher posted the correct tax to the proper account. (they also had a VAT complication which is what I think they were trying to sort out in the thread) - Finally, the Voucher should be posting between the various expense accounts in the Voucher and A/P. I suppose you could try to post it to a special Liabilities:Employee Expenses account, but I don’t see the advantage and you’ll lose the ability to track them like you do with them posting to the regular A/P account. (this might not even be possible as the business features are finicky if you deviate from the included A/R and A/P accounts) If you could cleanly enter the expenses as Vendor Bills, you could pay them with offsets to a Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. (skipping the Voucher entirely and transferring one liability to another.) Then when you reimburse the employee, you pay that with an asset. There isn’t much point in this however unless you really need to track how much those employees (and ultimately, you) spent at each Vendor. Because each one will be immediately ‘paid’ with the offsetting liability to the employee, there won’t be any related payables aging from the Vendor Bill that is trackable any more. Or, if you really needed to track Employee Expenses due separate from A/P, and still want to use the voucher system, then ‘pay’ the Voucher with a similar offset to the Liabilities:Employee Expenses account. Then later pay down that account from an asset. (but you’ll lose the ability to track each Voucher due separately since they are ‘already paid’ within GnuCash) If you lose due date tracking for one of the above cases, you might be able to get a semblance of it back using some creative scheduled transactions for the final reimbursement and future transactions reporting as a substitute for an aging report, but it would likely be lots of one-off work. I’d just stick to the included functionality if at all possible. Regards, Adrien > On May 22, 2018, at 5:04 PM, Matthew Pounsettwrote: > > I'm just starting to use the business functions of GnuCash.. most things > I've sorted out fairly easily, but I'm having issues figuring out the best > way to use Employee expense vouchers. > > The intended use looks pretty straightforward: enter line items attached to > the appropriate expense account, post, pay the employee. However, I have > two problems with that: > 1) the voucher line item descriptions aren't included in the split > descriptions in the expense accounts, so it's hard to trace an item back to > its purpose from looking at an expense ledger > 2) there's no easy way to deal with taxes in the employee vouchers, so my > purchases tax is unaccounted for > > So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and > enter the receipts as vendor bills. I'm trying to decide how to tie the > two together. > > My first thought was that employee expenses are obviously a liability, > however that ends up balancing a liability against a liability > (Liabilities:Employee Expenses vs. Liabilities:Accounts Payable). Perhaps > an asset makes more sense? Balance Liabilities:Accounts Payable against > Assets:Employee Expenses, and then pay bills out of that asset? > > While I'm certain using an asset would work, I'm curious how do other > people do this? > > Cheers, > Matt
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote: Because I'd like to treat the actual vendors as the vendors in this situation. I don't see how I could enter an employee expense voucher as a vendor bill, and then still track a vendor bill with the correct vendor attached to it. I'm confused by the above. Do you get a bill from a vendor (e.g., Office Depot) for something, and an expense voucher from an employee for the same item? If that's the case, perhaps you can have the 'actual' vendors as vendors and the employees as the charge back 'project' for the amount. If that's not the case, treat each employee as a separate vendor. If you split the accounts on an expense voucher then the employee's name should be able to be associated with each transaction. HTH, Rich ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On 22 May 2018 at 18:21, Rich Shepardwrote: > On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote: > > So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and >> enter the receipts as vendor bills. I'm trying to decide how to tie the >> two together. >> > > Matthew, > > Why not enter employees as vendors and treat them as any other vendor? As > a sole practitioner professional services provider I don't have employees > (tried that a couple of times years ago; didn't work well either time) so I > may be missing something in your situation. > > Because I'd like to treat the actual vendors as the vendors in this situation. I don't see how I could enter an employee expense voucher as a vendor bill, and then still track a vendor bill with the correct vendor attached to it. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Modelling employee expenses
On Tue, 22 May 2018, Matthew Pounsett wrote: So.. I'd like to assign employee expenses to some other account type, and enter the receipts as vendor bills. I'm trying to decide how to tie the two together. Matthew, Why not enter employees as vendors and treat them as any other vendor? As a sole practitioner professional services provider I don't have employees (tried that a couple of times years ago; didn't work well either time) so I may be missing something in your situation. Best regards, Rich ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.