Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com What an unusual vocabulary of a angry EGO of a peaceful wonderful Goanetter! Perhaps, excellent opportunity to practice TOLERANCE and anger management. Cip -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of cornel Sent: 25 July 2006 19:21 To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! Subject: Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code Gilbert You really must be off your rocker to say what you have said below. Can't you see that when I said I was a liberal it had nothing to do with preaching anything? What on earth is the matter with you? Are Bill and Hilary Clinton not deemed to be liberals compared to the conservatives and Christian Right? I have to say that you do not answer questions asked but have simply started to project absolute rubbish. I had planned to send you a reasoned argument as to why you came through as pretty traditional in outlook and totally unaware of the real world. However, after the rubbish from you, I don't think I will. Are you really a medical doctor? Doesn't a medical doctor need some intellect however minimal? Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code As Elisabeth and Cornel, have publicly said, they preach a liberal philosophy on Goanet (see virtues of casual extra-marital sex), but don't practice it personally. Many people do it in the opposite direction. But we are Goans. Or is it called fantasizing while typing one's thoughts on goanet? No wonder goanetters are tired of this thread. Also cheap way to get infatuated and irritate the hell out of a nice guy like Mario. Why don't they just thumb through Playboy, Playmate, Hustler? Perhaps Goanet should allow those pictures instead of the posts. :=)) You will certainly increase ACTIVE membership. Pun, tem samkem kanjus / marwadi murree! No offence to marwadis - just some amchi bhas Konkani. Last sentence of your paragraph below should have read: inherently supporting the view that TRUE followers of specific religions, are MORE LIKELY TO BE morally superior to Atheists and Agnostics. (Just some minor details. We don't want to irritate Cornel and Santosh and their heroine.) Kind Regards, GL Bosco D'Mello It's disappointing to note that Gilbert and Mario were both unable to respond to a direct question. Both have stirred the pot and point to each other for answers and have chosen to explain the other's point of view. I don't see a difference between Gilbert Mario's point of view because they are both supporting the view of the subject thread : The rock solid Christian moral code and inherently supporting the view that followers of specfic religions, are morally superior to Atheists and Agnostics. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code and Bosco
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com --- Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilbert, You had another opportunity to list your Rock Solid Moral Code. You failed. Mario observes: What is the matter with Bosco? How do you deal with someone who has supposedly followed this thread but still doesn't know that this is not about any one rock solid moral code? How do you deal with someone who falsely continues to deny that the rock solid Christian moral code as well as Sai Baba's have been listed and detailed several times in this debate? Didn't Bosco once defensively say that listing the Ten Commandments was of no use because most Christians did not know what they were? Then, to my amazement, he turns around and again demands that the Ten Commandments be listed? Here, Bosco, once again for the nth time: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm Knock yourself out. Bosco writes: First you wiggled out saying its not about the Christian moral code (just like Mario), then you said its not about the list but about the enforcement by soceity. Mario observes: Here we go again. How does one wiggle out of something one has never said? Here we see Bosco trying to re-define a debate that has been going on for weeks, without apparently understanding a word we have said. Bosco writes: I'll give you your correction, that you and Mario are inherently supporting the view that TRUE followers of specific religions, are MORE LIKELY TO BE morally superior to Atheists and Agnostics. Mario observes: No, I am not supporting this view at all. You have apparently ignored everything I have written and are trying to put YOUR words in my posts. Let's see if I can simplify this for you. This is a summary of what I have said all along: a) We KNOW the codes of morally based groups. b) Their members have accepted these codes by being members. c) Just because some members violate the codes from time to time does not invalidate the codes themselves, or make them fake in Santosh's hostile insinuation. c) ATHEISTS MAY HAVE GOOD, OR EVEN BETTER CODES THAN RELIGIONS. [Memo to other readers: Excuse the emphasis but this is to make it harder for Bosco to wiggle out of:-))] d) When it comes to unorganized individual atheists, we have no way of knowing what moral code they have adopted or are following or not following. e) That's it. In a nutshell that I'd like to see you wiggle out of, though I know you'll try. Bosco writes: And I'll say - FALSE. You are wrong to take that ARROGANT stand. And that is the root of what I'm contesting. Mario responds: Are you the modern re-incarnation of Don Quixote? You create an ARROGANT stand where there is none, then label it FALSE. You seem caught in a steel trap of pre-conceived notions about this thread, read carefully and slowly my points a) through e) above and let me know what you find that is either ARROGANT or FALSE about what I have said. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com --- Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilbert, You had another opportunity to list your Rock Solid Moral Code. You failed. Hi Bosco, Cornel, Santosh, Could you have failed to recognize Gilbert's many truths? Is he a prophet ahead of his time? A Goan prophet or Goan Catholic prophet? Is he the modern day Goan Moses come to set his people free? I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt. A hundred years from now, with hindsight, he might be hailed as the one who saved Goa. From whom I do not know, perhaps from himself, but saved Goa and Goans nonetheless. Gilbert, can you make a speech on prophecy, Goan Catholic prophecy, and like Moses, setting your people free? Also please clarify the term your people. Regards, George ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Gilbert / Mario / Santosh, Thank you for your responses. It's disappointing to note that Gilbert and Mario were both unable to respond to a direct question. Both have stirred the pot and point to each other for answers and have chosen to explain the other's point of view. I don't see a difference between Gilbert Mario's point of view because they are both supporting the view of the subject thread : The rock solid Christian moral code and inherently supporting the view that followers of specfic religions, are morally superior to Atheists and Agnostics. I requested you both to list the moral codes you are supporting. Instead Mario took off on a rant about snide and gratuitous attack on morally based groups by a small cabal of determined atheists on Goanet. And I was the recipient of more of the usual gratuituos, unwarranted, unrelated comments from Mario, himself. For eg.: 1) Apparently my command of English failed in this case because you are asking a question that has already been answered several times in this thread:-)) 2) Since you seem unfamiliar with this thread you must not know of the references to members of moral organizations as having a mob psychology or a herd mentality and the moral organisations as having fake morality. 3) It is also instructive that a big Goanet honcho like yourself now comes to the defense of the attackers of religion and the religious while questioning and making snide references about those who oppose his attacks. 4) Your friend, Santosh 5) I know you have a hard time being specific, but I would like you to try and tell me exactly what you find objectionable in the paragraphs titled POINT. All meant to deflect his inability to answer my specific query. Instead Mario would like me to engage him in debate to his COMMENTS. It is presumptious of him to assert that I have not been following this thread. Its because I have been following this thread, that I have attempted to get a clear answer from the participants. Mario has only responded with generalities that he usually accuses others of. He has failed to answer my specific query. Some of Mario's points: 1) I say it is conditional simply because we have no idea what unorganized individual atheists are up to. RESPONSE: Its quite possible that Atheists say the same thing about us when we claim to be morally superior. 2) For example, Christians have the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments. RESPONSE: I wonder if the majority of Christians, we know personally, can accurately recite the 10 Commandments, let alone follow them to the Tee. 3) Even if some members violate these, the rules themselves remain moral or rock solid. RESPONSE: What good are these rules and morals if they are not being followed. Never mind the fact that you cannot list them to start with. 4) In addition, there is group pressure for each individual to conform, and consequences if they don't which depend on the severity of the violation. Thus there are some checks and balances on each member. RESPONSE: What group pressure? Pls explain with example(s) 5) There are no outside checks and balances other than the law and no one has a basis for accusing them of hypocrisy. RESPONSE: Are you suggesting that the law may infact support immoral practices? Hypocrisy ? Gilbert has chosen to do the same. More generalities with no specifics. For eg. 1) When one belongs to a recognized and well-defined group, there are codes of membership. MORE IMPORTANTLY, there is internal policing by the group members. RESPONSE: As a Catholic, What are the codes of membership you are referring to. Pls list them. what is the internal policing conducted by Catholics? 2) Thus a Catholic HAS TO do simple things like attend church on Sundays, and in today's topsy-turvy world (where as one example, divorce is the norm), live a restrictive life-style. RESPONSE: Is that the moral code you are defending - attend church on Sundays? What restrictive life-style? Does the church deny its members the right to divorce? Are you suggesting that Catholics are in a straight-jacket? Do you have access to any numbers to back your assertion that divorce is the norm? 3) Within the Goan context, pre-1960 (nothing to do with colonialism) society in Goa and its Diaspora was policed by family and elders (social and religious), using AGE-OLD Moral and Religion codes (not the same). RESPONSE: If you are of the view that divorce is something immoral, I don't share your point of view. As human beings we are all in the pursuit of happiness. If you cannot have it in a monogamous relationship, no point staying in that relationship. I don't see why two people have to be forced to live together against their wishes. Pre-1960 (nothing to do with colonialism) Goan society in Goa and the diaspora (Catholics and Hindus) practiced segregation using the Caste system. Some still probably do. Is that the moral code you are defending? 4) So
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
The ping-pong on this thread may leave some of us cross-eyed. Gilbert continues to try and give us his thoughtful viewpoints. Santosh on the other hand is doing what he has been doing for well over a decade..de-mystifying religion. He has had several discussions and run-ins with several Goans on this issue on Goanet. Mario with an excellent command of the English language, ofcourse is arguing for the sake of arguing. As we all know, he must have the last word on everything. Kevin on the other hand is kindly sharing his experience of going from a has- been Knight of Columbus to an atheist. I like to raise a few focused queries. Mario/Gilbert - What are these rock solid Christian moral codes that you two are trying to defend ? Could you both kindly list them. Santosh - Your 7-point list of your views conforms to what you've been saying for a decade - you are pro-Science more than anything else. Everything has to be logical. If not for the keywords 'harmful' and 'innocuous', I think your points 6 and 7 could be in contradiction. Would it be possible to list the 5 most harmful religious practices and 5 innocuous practices for each of the 3 main religions in Goa. Kevin - As somebody who does not believe in a Supreme being, has anybody on Goanet tried to impose their (non-certified) beliefs on you ? What about vice-versa? Kevin states: The blood of many martyrs can be placed at the foot of the cross of their charismatic leader who, by committing assisted suicide, led one of the most infamous, though glorious chapters of human history. Why do you shy away from mentioning names ? And how do you know that THE 'charismatic leader' really existed and walked the earth ? Did you hear it at the atheist church/compound/website? You seem to be mingling your Christian indoctrination with your samples of atheism and don't appear to be reading everything out there and are too focused with dealing with Christians instead of exploring your personal spirituality. As the only person I know, I'll say you are a good person. It's only the religion that seems to be driving you into the lake. Thank you - Bosco ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Hi Jose, Thanks for your research on Kevin's history. Looks like he has been kissing the blarney stone once-too-often. And we supurlem Goenkars (except for Mario) have been swallowing his philosophies hook-line-and-sinker. So Kevin's theories is just a lot of kaneo. I am glad to note, you agree that there is likely a lot more personal issues here, than meets the eye. Thanks for speculating on some of the problems that may be involved. As a matter of fact, both you and I may have done him (and others) a big favor. One can help Kevin and others, including cancer patients, and bebdos if they recognize their problem and ask for help. Like, there are many ways for individuals to quit smoking. Yet the most important ingredient is the desire by the smoker to quit. What we've been hearing from Kevin and the agnostics are long theories why OTHERS are to be blamed - just like the alcoholics or drug users. In fact dotor-saab, (and more recently Bosco), he has suckered YOU AGAIN, as reflected by your questions on the Church. Kevin's belief, like all agnostics (see Santosh's post) is they DO NOT have a Soul and they DO NOT have an After-Life. While Santosh, to his credit, has given this response point blank, other Christaum agnostics talk of NO God, or BAD Jesus, or BAD Church. They do not emphasize the NO soul. So let's get to the root of the problem. Do you want the Church to change its position on these issues to suit the agnostics, and whatever fancy name they give themselves? It may be difficult for you, Bosco and others to understand this. It certainly was difficult for me, and took some time to accept, that some individuals actually want to believe they do not have a soul and ipso facto do not have an after-life. Yet, unless you / we accept this (instead of NO god or BAD church) you / we will not appreciate the atheist's mind set. As a simple analogy and with no offence to gays, it is like a gay-man blaming his wife for his marriage problems. Sonzmolai murree, Saiba? So to your questions, what and why Kevin turned away form the Church, is like asking what and why the gay-guy is having marriage problems and turned away from his wife? Ani magir tum muntai, let's send the wife for therapy, so that she can be in a near-Kevinesque position. Now this does not mean that Mrs. Kevin is an angel. Yet she is not the problem to the relations even though Kevin may claim so. The Mrs. Kevin's issues are just a distraction to solving Kevin's fundamental problem, if indeed he and you truly want to solve it. The conflicts (confusion) that you describe that atheists go through are their own making. Instead of getting up every morning and saying, the Church is bad, they should, as they say they pray, say as their morning and night prayers, I do not have a soul and when I die, I am a goner. This will focus their thoughts on their real issues - THEMSELVES!!! Kevin's problems, that you have speculated, may be another manifestation of many social problems that Goans in the Diaspora face; even if they have lots of degrees after their name and live in a big house. I have been preaching this message for a long time. It is my understanding that quite a few Diaspora Goans have similar problems. Kind Regards, GL Jose Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As late as May 2004, Kevin Saldanha listed himself in his net-autobiography as 'Serving on the Building Liason Committee of the St. Francis Xaviers Church currently in the process of constructing a 950 seat Roman Catholic church in Mississauga' http://members.allstream.net/~saligao/biography.html Quite providentially, coincidentally or atheistically - there apparently is another Kevin Saldanha who in 2001 noted that God does not exist. Allah does not exist. Nor do any Hindu gods. Nor do all the rest of gods and religious beliefs invented solely by and for the human mind http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/saldanha-religiousbelief.shtml Even though he now proclaims to be an atheist, he appears to be still struggling with the issue (of change) - I expect him to deny that he is strugling. There is nothing wrong with that. One way that struggle is manifesting itself is his repeated attacks on the Catholic Church and on religion. Accordingly,WHILE noting your NON-intent to change Kevin's mind, I suggest that there might be a struggle within or in the vicinity of the environment Kevin calls familia! One often sees that in divorces and separations. It is normal, is it not?. It is normal too for the 'unsettled, uncomfortable and not totally sure with their decision' folks to express themselves passionately and sometimes..with more than a little bitterness. I don't see why anybody esp goanet administrators would block Kevin's posts. Often times, this extreme bitterness is an expression of the subconscious struggle. Let it run its course. Life eventually equalizes when the bitterness runs its
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Hi Gilbert I regret I cannot let you glib statement that our intelligent Goan Christaum bhau and bhoni...still continue to write about Christianity in the Middle Ages Do you have any evidence for such an assertion apart from the context in which this might have been necessary? Am awaiting your evidence Gilbert! Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence Aitaracheo Sermaum Hi Santosh, Thanks for you clarification of Hinduism. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I checked out your's and Santosh's facts with a Jain. Even though I was on bended knee (very polite), he was offended when I asked if his organization is atheist. So you-both may be having some theoretical theological definition of religion and God. But most definitely not the Jain that I spoke to. And that what counts. Mario replies: Gilbert, I'm sure Santosh will provide you with chapter and verse. I did not know that Jains did not believe in a superior being either until educated on this issue by Santosh who keeps a sharp eye on these things to make his generalizations about atheism. BTW, Gilbert, your friend is probably a cafeteria-Jain, like my old friend who ate beef liberally as a student in the USA on the grounds that American cows are not sacred:-)) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code (2)
--- Gilbert Lawrence wrote: If you call Buddhist and Jains as atheists, then we definitely have a semantic problem. Mario adds: Gilbert, Santosh is correct. Buddhists and Jains are atheist organizations, but they have all the essential moral features of a theistic religion. So, naturally the wiley, religion-bashing Santosh uses these liberally as a red herring to deflect attention from most individual atheists who are unorganized and have not signed on to any organized and publicly stated moral code. Buddhists and Jains have nothing in common with the five or six Goan unorganized individual atheists that appear on Goanet, some of whom are just curious, while the others are openly hostile towards religion and those who are religious. I have no problems with someone making an unequivocal moral equivalence between Buddhists and Jains and the major religions and the standards they impose on their membership. I do have a problem with someone making an unconditional moral equivalence between these and unorganized individual atheists, many of whom may be of upstanding moral character but because there are no external checks and balances no one has any idea what's going on unless they get arrested. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
--- Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: George, in your travels you seem to have hung around North Goa only. This is a disservice to South Goans. You are a biased traveller;-) Thanks for your occasional humorous travelogue !! Thank you Bosco. In case the Zuari bridge falls down, I have confined myself to North Goa. Since the bridge survived 50,000 people standing on it to protest the fragility of the bridge, and also survived a JoeGoaUK photo-shoot, I think it is safe for me to head south now. With the colonial World Cup nearly over, I headed to the former 'Colva Canteen', now re-christened 'Cafeteria Catholic'. The seemingly omnipresent Pedro was at the door to greet me. Are you here for the standard fare or would you like to see the menu, he asked me. Why, of course, I am here to see the much talked about menu of 'Cafeteria Catholic'. He gave me a menu and seated me at a table next to Theist Theo, Agnostic Arvind, and Atheist Angela. Man this is surreal, I said to myself. The restaurant was full. Everyone seems to like 'Cafeteria Catholic' I commented to Pedro. No, came his reply, they are as confused as some goanetters about who we are but come here since the waitresses are good-looking. Then they go home and tell their wives that they came to watch Sports on our large screen TV. It is all part of their rock-solid moral code. Tell me Pedro, this 'Cafeteria Catholic' is not like some cyber fish-market and flea-market combined into one? No, we have the normal fare. Like sandwiches, milk shakes, soft drinks, etc. And our daily special is a rock-solid pie. What do you mean rock-solid pie? Yes, says Pedro, its been on the menu for a long, long time, and only the anal-retentive keep ordering it. So now you know the truth. Regards, George ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you call Buddhist and Jains as atheists, then we definitely have a semantic problem. You would not have had a semantic problem if you knew the meaning of the word atheist. Buddhists and Jains are atheists because they do not believe in a deity. What is your definition of an atheist, and according to which dictionary? I am not interested in a theological or theoretical dissertation on what is religion. What are you interested in in the context of this discussion? Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Apologies to the GoaNet community for inadvertently replying to Mario on this forum. I had resolved not to be drawn down to his level as is evident from the tone of his messages so will not be responding to him here. I will be happy to reply to anyone else who wishes to continue this thread. Kevin Saldanha Mississauga, ON. Original Message: - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:06:26 -0700 (PDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Humanists cannot reverse all the ills wrought upon this planet by the so-called religious in one generation. Mario replies: Forget about secular humanists curing ANY of mankind's ills. The point I made was that the secular humanists are not even in the arena, have never been in the arena, hiding behind self-serving labels and selective outrage that fools no one with even half a brain. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Hopefully this dialogue will educate the rest of us, who may be misinformed if not ignorant of atheism or religion. Hope this exchange will educate me and others who may follow this thread.. Gilbert, It is unlikely that you or I or anybody else will be educated by idle banter on Goanet. The best you can hope for is some comic relief. And I am talking about genuine spontaneous humor not some silly disguised posts containing fake smileys. You surely find virtue in being a neurologist and a researcher. No, I dont find any virtue in being what I am, a brain scientist. Nobodys profession makes him/her virtuous. That does not make you smarter or superior than one in another field of medicine. But dont you think mailing list historians striving to revise history for righteous ideological reasons, are superior in some way to professional historians? But it does give you pride and an incentive to strive to do an even better job, which is what Belief is all about. No. People believe in different real or imaginary things for different real or imaginary reasons or for no reason at all. The chronic bebdo when he is sober is likely to say, There is no God. That's because God(religion) demands self-control and a moral value system. Why dont you conduct a survey of bebde to find out if this is a sensible belief of yours or not? Please show me your raw data on this. I have never met a bebdo who said what you are saying. My old random survey includes about 20 of them, all of whom were admitted in a hospital for variable lengths of time for hepatic cirrhosis. The bebdo, and others like him, who do not want to live the strict norms of their religion, may believe in no God / atheist as a convenient rationale. What is the religion of this bebdo? Does his religion impose a moral ban on the consumption of alcohol? There is no compelling reason to lead a moral life if one does not believe in a moral supreme being with no consequences during or after this life. Call it fear that makes believers be good. Yet, if that's what it takes, so be it. But raw data indicates that people who do not believe in a supreme being such as atheists, Buddhists, Jains, agnostics, skeptics, etc, commit no more crimes, are no more immoral, support no more illegal and immoral wars, perform no more legal abortions, use no more condoms and contraceptives, engage in no more marital and extra-marital sexual relationships, support no more tortures and executions, file no more divorces, and become no more addicted to drugs and alcohol than people who believe in one or more moral supreme beings. What is the moral force to influence or make a non-believer live within the moral norms of their society? The raw data indicates that it is the survival value of innate goodness for each individual and for the species as a whole. Rational morality is based on the practical notion of the greatest good of the greatest number. I say, with due respect, You live in a la..la land.:=)) You say all kinds of things without having any raw data to back them. Who then is living in La La Land? Even with / in spite of the moral force / religion, there are bebdos, ani tea bair more bamtulos.:=)) How come our prisons are filled to over capacity? Please answer your own question. How come? Alcoholism is not the only intoxicating agent that may lead one to be a non-believer. So are drugs, power, wealth, knowledge, greed. And then there are individuals who suffer from Delusional Grandeur - pathological or pseudo intellectual.:=)) Do you have raw data to support these comical claims? A sensible atheist like a sensible believer is one who for a minimum lives the moral norms of society they belong to. And perhaps tries to be even better. Arent you contradicting your earlier assertion? You told us earlier that there is no compelling reason to be moral without believing in a moral supreme being. So how come both atheists and believers now have to be similarly sensible in order to lead a moral life? Once again if there is no philosophy to life, there is no guidance to rationalize one's thoughts consistently. One ends with the situation, as an example, I believe in abortion but not in female feticide. How about an immoral philosophy such as that of Charles Manson, and rationalization of bad behavior? And why is it good to have a large following? Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Humanists cannot reverse all the ills wrought upon this planet by the so-called religious in one generation. It was secular thinking that gave you the life and freedoms you enjoy today and will eventually bring peace to a shrinking world. If left up to religious leaders, we would still have a flat earth as the centre of the universe that is 6,000 years old and shackles of slavery supporting a white-dominated society. Kevin Saldanha Mississauga, ON. Original Message: - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 06:46:34 -0700 (PDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most atheist groups (skeptics, freethinkers, etc.) are content to debate the meaning of life but the Secular Humanists are really the only organization that feels that our duty in this life is to care about others outside our immediate influence and share our resources with the less fortunate. It is that empathy that drives our 'moral compass' towards the 'True North' and not some imaginary pole that has been devised by theologians and inscribed on stone tablets. Mario asks: Kevin, As one of those who has a recent and home-made moral code of convenience, which you try to cover up under a veneer of delusional intellectual bullshit, can you please explain to me what the secular humanists have done and are doing to address the problems in Rwanda, Burundi, west-Africa, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the middle east, and how they have shared their resources to help those less fortunate populations? What have you secular humanists done to address the millions of unborn that are being flushed down the drain every day, week, month and year? What are the secular humanists doing to address the looming menaces of Iran and N. Korea? Thanks. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
Hi Santosh, Thanks for responding to my post and advancing the dialogue by being specific in your responses. Hopefully this dialogue will educate the rest of us, who may be misinformed if not ignorant of atheism or religion. Hope this exchange will educate me and others who may follow this thread. My (GL) reply follows your (SH) responses. Kind Regards, GL Santosh Helekar (SH): Here are some comments, answers and questions in response to a recent Goanet post. GL: I cannot understand why atheists cannot proclaim their virtues without condemning / denigrating religion. And the reverse is also true! SH: Actually it is very simple to understand. The answer to the above question is that there are no virtues to being an atheist, just as there are no virtues to being a theist. There is no virtue in proclaiming that you are virtuous because of your specific beliefs. No virtue in chauvinism and self-righteousness. GL replies: Humbly, I disagree with you. There is always virtue in the positives of what we all believe, do and achieve. You surely find virtue in being a neurologist and a researcher. That does not make you smarter or superior than one in another field of medicine. But it does give you pride and an incentive to strive to do an even better job, which is what Belief is all about. --- GL: The question I have is: How does one distinguish between a true atheist who does not believe in the God but does believe and act for the humanity of mankind; compared to the bebdo who uses the excuse of no God so that they can continue his/her nefarious ways. SH: This is a very comical comparison. I think it demonstrates a lack of sensitivity and good judgment. But the answer is very simple. A bebdo is a drunk. If he proclaims that there is no god when he has had too much to drink then ask him if there is one when he is sober. GL: This comical comparison brings home a point. The chronic bebdo when he is sober is likely to say, There is no God. That's because God (religion) demands self-control and a moral value system. So the bebdo, and others like him, who do not want to live the strict norms of their religion, may believe in no God / atheist as a convenient rationale. There is no compelling reason to lead a moral life if one does not believe in a moral supreme being with no consequences during or after this life. Call it fear that makes believers be good. Yet, if that's what it takes, so be it. What is the moral force to influence or make a non-believer live within the moral norms of their society? You may claim that no force is necessary for a majority of individuals. I say, with due respect, You live in a la..la land.:=)) Even with / in spite of the moral force / religion, there are bebdos, ani tea bair more bamtulos.:=)) How come our prisons are filled to over capacity? Alcoholism is not the only intoxicating agent that may lead one to be a non-believer. So are drugs, power, wealth, knowledge, greed. And then there are individuals who suffer from Delusional Grandeur - pathological or pseudo intellectual.:=)) -- GL: In fact even sensible atheists of today may have a cop-out attitude that their contribution do not count. SH: Who is a sensible atheist? How does one distinguish him/her from an insensible one? Are there sensible and insensible theists as well? GL: A sensible atheist like a sensible believer is one who for a minimum lives the moral norms of society they belong to. And perhaps tries to be even better. -- GL: Perhaps we need an atheist Mother Theresa. SH: Why? Why should anybody care if someone believes in god(s) or not? GL: The issue is not belief in God, but doing good to society and fellow humans under whatever rationale one may desire. --- GL: She (Annie Bessant) had no religion, but she had a philosophy and a large following in India. SH: What is good about having a philosophy and a large following? GL: Once again if there is no philosophy to life, there is no guidance to rationalize one's thoughts consistently. One ends with the situation, as an example, I believe in abortion but not in female feticide. Cheers, Santosh. Cheers, Gilbert. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Humanists cannot reverse all the ills wrought upon this planet by the so-called religious in one generation. Mario replies: Forget about secular humanists curing ANY of mankind's ills. The point I made was that the secular humanists are not even in the arena, have never been in the arena, hiding behind self-serving labels and selective outrage that fools no one with even half a brain. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code
On Mon Jul 3 20:45:16 PDT 2006 George Pinto wrote: By sheer coincidence I met Theo Bebdo today outside the Aldona church today. His name Theo from the word theist. RESPONSE: George, in your travels you seem to have hung around North Goa only. This is a disservice to South Goans. You are a biased traveller;-) Thanks for your occasional humorous travelogue !! Best - Bosco ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
