Gilbert / Mario / Santosh, Thank you for your responses.
It's disappointing to note that Gilbert and Mario were both unable to respond to a direct question. Both have stirred the pot and point to each other for answers and have chosen to explain the other's point of view. I don't see a difference between Gilbert & Mario's point of view because they are both supporting the view of the subject thread : "The rock solid Christian moral code" and inherently supporting the view that followers of specfic religions, are morally superior to Atheists and Agnostics. I requested you both to list the moral codes you are supporting. Instead Mario took off on a rant about "snide and gratuitous attack on morally based groups by a small cabal of determined atheists on Goanet". And I was the recipient of more of the usual gratuituos, unwarranted, unrelated comments from Mario, himself. For eg.: 1) Apparently my command of English failed in this case because you are asking a question that has already been answered several times in this thread:-)) 2) Since you seem unfamiliar with this thread you must not know of the references to members of moral organizations as having a "mob psychology" or a "herd mentality" and the moral organisations as having "fake morality". 3) It is also instructive that a big Goanet honcho like yourself now comes to the defense of the attackers of religion and the religious while questioning and making snide references about those who oppose his attacks. 4) Your friend, Santosh........ 5) I know you have a hard time being specific, but I would like you to try and tell me exactly what you find objectionable in the paragraphs titled POINT. All meant to deflect his inability to answer my specific query. Instead Mario would like me to engage him in debate to his COMMENTS. It is presumptious of him to assert that I have not been following this thread. Its because I have been following this thread, that I have attempted to get a clear answer from the participants. Mario has only responded with generalities that he usually accuses others of. He has failed to answer my specific query. Some of Mario's points: 1) I say it is conditional simply because we have no idea what unorganized individual atheists are up to. RESPONSE: Its quite possible that Atheists say the same thing about us when we claim to be morally superior. 2) For example, Christians have the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments. RESPONSE: I wonder if the majority of Christians, we know personally, can accurately recite the 10 Commandments, let alone follow them to the Tee. 3) Even if some members violate these, the rules themselves remain "moral" or "rock solid". RESPONSE: What good are these rules and morals if they are not being followed. Never mind the fact that you cannot list them to start with. 4) In addition, there is group pressure for each individual to conform, and consequences if they don't which depend on the severity of the violation. Thus there are some checks and balances on each member. RESPONSE: What group pressure? Pls explain with example(s) 5) There are no outside checks and balances other than the law and no one has a basis for accusing them of hypocrisy. RESPONSE: Are you suggesting that the law may infact support immoral practices? Hypocrisy ? Gilbert has chosen to do the same. More generalities with no specifics. For eg. 1) When one belongs to a recognized and well-defined group, there are codes of membership. MORE IMPORTANTLY, there is internal policing by the group members. RESPONSE: As a Catholic, What are the codes of membership you are referring to. Pls list them. what is the internal policing conducted by Catholics? 2) Thus a Catholic HAS TO do simple things like attend church on Sundays, and in today's topsy-turvy world (where as one example, divorce is the norm), live a restrictive life-style. RESPONSE: Is that the moral code you are defending - attend church on Sundays? What restrictive life-style? Does the church deny its members the right to divorce? Are you suggesting that Catholics are in a straight-jacket? Do you have access to any numbers to back your assertion that "divorce is the norm"? 3) Within the Goan context, pre-1960 (nothing to do with colonialism) society in Goa and its Diaspora was policed by family and elders (social and religious), using AGE-OLD Moral and Religion codes (not the same). RESPONSE: If you are of the view that divorce is something immoral, I don't share your point of view. As human beings we are all in the pursuit of happiness. If you cannot have it in a monogamous relationship, no point staying in that relationship. I don't see why two people have to be forced to live together against their wishes. Pre-1960 (nothing to do with colonialism) Goan society in Goa and the diaspora (Catholics and Hindus) practiced segregation using the Caste system. Some still probably do. Is that the moral code you are defending? 4) So Bosco, there is a lot more to this debate than meets the eye. It is not the "rock solid Christian moral codes" (list of 5-7-10-20-100) that is being named and debated. But rather the enforcement of these moral codes by society, that is being debated. RESPONSE: If you cannot list what these moral codes are how can you even get to asking society to enforce them ? And ofcourse Gilbert had to give us his share of gratuitous comments: 1) Many Goans may not like that - seeing another smart Goan. RESPONSE: Would that apply to you, too? Dislike on seeing another smart Goan? Santosh - I didn't quite understand the following desirable practices: - Mythological literature - Scholastic philosophy - Religious literature and music What exactly are you referring to here. Re "Worship of godmen and swamis" - this is big in India (Hinduism).....some of these people have a cult following and there are similarly entities in Christianity too, who lead an embellished private life. Mario contends that "Santosh insists that all atheists have excellent moral codes simply because he says so, and demands that we accept this". I don't recall this from Santosh, but if I have missed it I agree with Mario that we cannot accept Santosh's assertion because he says so. I'm sure Goanetters have gone weary of this thread, where there was more noise and jostling to display some self-righteous positions and ofcourse to argue for the sake of arguing. Too bad Gilbert and Mario dodged identifying what these moral codes were that made some of us superior to agnostics and atheists. Best - Bosco T-dot! _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list [email protected] http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
