Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Michael Jones]

'carcer' is the word. jail/gaol are just johnny-come-lately.

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 9:43 AM David Riley  wrote:

> On May 18, 2019, at 05:59, ma...@madra.net wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 18 May 2019 00:44:33 UTC+1, Rob 'Commander' Pike wrote:
>>
>> jail is a clear improvement over the ludicrous gaol...
>>
>
> I hadn't actually realised that GAOL vs JAIL was a British vs. US English
> distinction. I thought 'Gaol' was just an archaic spelling of 'Jail', as
> I've only ever come across it in C19th and earlier literature. Even over
> this side of the pond, 'Jail' is used pretty exclusively. Although we
> mostly call it 'Prison' :-)
>
>
> This is OT for the list, but: I think it’s more the latter (an archaism
> rather than a regional distinction; jail is basically universal here
> because we started later).
>
> We do, however, tend to distinguish somewhat between “jail” and “prison”;
> the short version is that jail is temporary holding while awaiting trial,
> while prison is more permanent punitive containment post-sentencing. I’m
> not sure if that distinction exists as much overseas, and in colloquial US
> English, saying that someone is “in jail” is often used for both situations
> (I, myself, enjoy our more colorful slang such as “in the pokey” or “up the
> river”).
>
>
> - Dave
>
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*Michael T. jonesmichael.jo...@gmail.com *

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[David Riley]

On May 18, 2019, at 05:59, ma...@madra.net wrote:
> 
>> On Saturday, 18 May 2019 00:44:33 UTC+1, Rob 'Commander' Pike wrote:
>> jail is a clear improvement over the ludicrous gaol...
> 
> I hadn't actually realised that GAOL vs JAIL was a British vs. US English 
> distinction. I thought 'Gaol' was just an archaic spelling of 'Jail', as I've 
> only ever come across it in C19th and earlier literature. Even over this side 
> of the pond, 'Jail' is used pretty exclusively. Although we mostly call it 
> 'Prison' :-)

This is OT for the list, but: I think it’s more the latter (an archaism rather 
than a regional distinction; jail is basically universal here because we 
started later).

We do, however, tend to distinguish somewhat between “jail” and “prison”; the 
short version is that jail is temporary holding while awaiting trial, while 
prison is more permanent punitive containment post-sentencing. I’m not sure if 
that distinction exists as much overseas, and in colloquial US English, saying 
that someone is “in jail” is often used for both situations (I, myself, enjoy 
our more colorful slang such as “in the pokey” or “up the river”).


- Dave

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[madra]

On Saturday, 18 May 2019 00:44:33 UTC+1, Rob 'Commander' Pike wrote:
>
> jail is a clear improvement over the ludicrous gaol...
>

I hadn't actually realised that GAOL vs JAIL was a British vs. US English 
distinction. I thought 'Gaol' was just an archaic spelling of 'Jail', as 
I've only ever come across it in C19th and earlier literature. Even over 
this side of the pond, 'Jail' is used pretty exclusively. Although we 
mostly call it 'Prison' :-)

 

> ...with similar favorable positions taken on draft/draught etc.. 
>
...Australia is closer to Britain but sticks with jail and tire...
>

I don't see why the American reforms are necessarily "Favo[u]rable".  In a 
lot of cases, the US spelling actually causes conflict with an existing 
English word, where in British English there is no ambiguity.  You've 
mentioned two already.  TIRE/TYRE and DRAFT/DRAFT. Just think how much 
potential for confusion is avoided by retaining the British English 
spellings in the following:

1: My car was tired so I had it retyred.
2: A sudden draught blew away my draft 

Programme is just something that came out of the blue, from Scotland I 
> believe, replacing the older program again relatively recently


PROGRAM[ME] is another interesting one. As we [sort of!] have both versions 
in British English. Likewise with DISC/DISK

On television we have PROGRAMMES. At the opera or a football [not Soccer!] 
match, you might buy a PROGRAMME but it's generally considered the norm to 
run a PROGRAM on a computer.

In the same vein, you might admire the DISC of the moon or buy the tax DISC 
for your car or play your music on a compact DISC. But you'll have a DISK 
drive in your computer.  

[Though thankfully the abolition of the Tax Disc, the obsolescence of the 
DC and the advent of the SSD is gradually removing this discrepancy]

On Saturday, 18 May 2019 03:32:42 UTC+1, K.S. Bhaskar wrote:
>
> And let's not forget Indian English - between the countries in the Indian 
> Sub-continent (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh)...
>

As far as I'm aware the Indian sub-continent officially retains the British 
English spellings. I think you're referring more to regional differences in 
dialect there. That's a whole other can of worms!

Even within the tiny British Isles, there are huge differences in dialects 
of English spoken in different regions. I think people in the US who've 
never visited the British Isles and are only used to hearing that slightly 
artificial and bland-sounding, carefully enunciated "British Accent" that 
most actors from this part of the world seem to adopt when starring in US 
made television and films would probably be shocked to find themselves 
suddenly dumped in the middle of Belfast, Glasgow, Liverpool, Birmingham, 
Dublin, London's East End, etc and trying to follow a conversation amongst 
the locals.

Another thing that I hadn't realised, until I read that article I linked to 
on Noah Webster was that the existing reforms in US spelling were actually 
a much-watered down version of what he had originally intended.  This 
probably explains why they're an odd mixture of [he grudgingly admitted] 
logical changes, such transposing the RE to ER on the end of CENTRE with 
illogical ones such as retaining the C at the beginning, rather than 
replacing it with an S.  

Apparently, if Noah had got his way, it would  have been SENTER but he 
watered down his suggested reforms in the face of public ridicule. Thus 
leaving you Americans with a job only half-done.  Which, I suppose, in a 
way, is why from a British English point of view the differences in 
American English can often seem a bit random and arbitrary.

Tune in same time next week when the topic for discussion will be "Why is 
the American date format so illogical?"  Although I suspect that, on a 
mailing list comprised of coders, that one will be less controversial.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[K.S. Bhaskar]

And let's not forget Indian English - between the countries in the Indian 
Sub-continent (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh), that should add up to 
another couple hundred million at least, with its own peculiarities like 
"Horn OK Tata" on the back of every truck (sorry, lorry). Interestingly, 
those dialects have not made their mark on any programming language, 
despite the large number of people of Indian ancestry in the software 
business.

Regards
- Bhaskar

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 7:44:33 PM UTC-4, Rob 'Commander' Pike wrote:
>
> It is of course more complicated than most people believe. The right is 
> often wrong; the wrong often has long precedence. The British -ise ending 
> is an early 20th century misguided respelling based on invalid theories of 
> etymology. Programme is just something that came out of the blue, from 
> Scotland I believe, replacing the older program again relatively recently 
> (the occasional American pronunciation that rhymes with pogrom is a 
> catastrophe of its own). And so on and so on. What is perceived as British 
> and correct is often felt worthy through its Britishness but is in fact 
> more recently constructed than, for instance theater replacing theatre.
>
> Webster did indeed drop the colourful u's, with good reason (we are not 
> French), and jail is a clear improvement over the ludicrous gaol, with 
> similar favorable positions taken on draft/draught etc., but most of his 
> adjustments never caught on as canon, thru being the closest to making it. 
> Most of his attempts died on his tung (sic).
>
> Canada mostly follows the American (-ize, jail, tire, etc.) but keeps the 
> French u's and re's. Australia is closer to Britain but sticks with jail 
> and tire. I'm sure every English speaking country has its own set, and each 
> is valid in place.
>
> Language is rich, English orthography perhaps richest of all. Don't cast 
> aspersions, just be consistent. Most of all, don't believe that the Brits 
> are always "proper".
>
> The Go team's spelling standard honors the modern American style. It needs 
> to pick something to be consistent, but you are of course free to do as you 
> will in your own world, and you should.
>
> -rob
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 8:08 AM Michael Jones  > wrote:
>
>> In addition to being a daily Go programmer, I'm also a corporate 
>> executive in the US and a venture investment partner in the UK. This has me 
>> constantly surrounded by "proper" English and has made me very aware of the 
>> linguistic habits of my American upbringing. It seems that I've become an 
>> amalgam of the two, I say that "I was in hospital" for example, but name 
>> variables 'color' -- the result earning awkward glances on both sides of 
>> the Atlantic. My ear now prefers English English, in part from my love of 
>> the character of English people.
>>
>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:07 PM stíobhart matulevicz > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I know that a lot of what we think of as "American English"  words are 
>>> actually archaic forms of early 'English English'. Words like "gotten" 
>>> instead of "got", for example. But there's also a lot of blame or credit 
>>> (depending on your point of view) for the differences to be laid at the 
>>> door of a certain Mr. Noah Webster:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/amp/2018/05/07/noah-webster-american-identity-simplified-spelling-movement/
>>>
>>> I was kind of half-joking in my original post.  But, as someone who 
>>> considers himself highly literate,  I do actually find it does grate a 
>>> bit,  having to (from my point of view) deliberately spell words wrong, 
>>> when I'm coding. 
>>>
>>> I get my revenge in the code comments though,  where I resolutely stick 
>>> to "colour", "centre", "programme", etc.
>>>
>>> I wonder if I'm am isolated case,  or whether any other native English 
>>> speakers are slightly irked by having to code in "bad spelling" too?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 May 2019 21:26:29 Michael Jones > 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I know that you joke here, but I had an interesting dinner conversation 
 in London last year with erudite, scholarly friends who shared with me 
 that 
 recent research supports a different view of the "barbaric Americanised 
 false English" that is the prevailing sentiment you share. 

 According to the scholars they mentioned, "American English" is indeed 
 a true, pure, "real" English; just one from a time-capsule, an English 
 from 
 1776 that did not advance significantly since American independence. This 
 view suggests that were a BBC presenter and an American to travel back to 
 meet with King George, it would be the American who sounded "right" and 
 not 
 the other way around.

 This time-capsule argument is not an argument against modern evolved 
 English, but it is an interesting notion of a living language in the 
 homeland might become a historical artifact through cargo culting in the 

Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Rob Pike]

According to my Macquarie dictionary, the word in local use is jail but the
established institutions still use the old spelling on their edifices.

MacQ backs you on 'tyre', but I have seen 'tire' a lot as well.

It continues to evolve.

-rob




On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 10:08 AM Dan Kortschak  wrote:

> On Sat, 2019-05-18 at 09:43 +1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> > Australia is closer to Britain but sticks with jail
> > and tire.
>
> I don't think this is true Australia wide - in Melbourne and Adelaide
> (my home cities), I have always seen gaol and tyre.
>
> > I'm sure every English speaking country has its own set, and each
> > is valid in place.
>
> And also at a finer resolution.
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Dan Kortschak]

On Sat, 2019-05-18 at 09:43 +1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> Australia is closer to Britain but sticks with jail
> and tire.

I don't think this is true Australia wide - in Melbourne and Adelaide
(my home cities), I have always seen gaol and tyre.

> I'm sure every English speaking country has its own set, and each
> is valid in place.

And also at a finer resolution.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Dan Kortschak]

:)

In Gonum source/text, we have a policy of ASE in user-facing
documentation, but all my internal comments and commit messages are
written in BE (though read by me in AuE). We also avoid usages that are
ambigiguous when read in BE/AuE or grammatically incorrect when read in
those dialects (the best example of this is alternate/alternate for
alternate/alternative where this is a reduction in the semantic space
in ASE).

On Fri, 2019-05-17 at 09:20 -0700, ma...@madra.net wrote:
> Spare a thought for those of us who actually speak and write
> 'proper' 
> English and not that American version used in all programming
> languages.
> 
> We get to write in our own language but have to remember to spell
> half the 
> words wrong!
> 
> > 
> > 

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Rob Pike]

It is of course more complicated than most people believe. The right is
often wrong; the wrong often has long precedence. The British -ise ending
is an early 20th century misguided respelling based on invalid theories of
etymology. Programme is just something that came out of the blue, from
Scotland I believe, replacing the older program again relatively recently
(the occasional American pronunciation that rhymes with pogrom is a
catastrophe of its own). And so on and so on. What is perceived as British
and correct is often felt worthy through its Britishness but is in fact
more recently constructed than, for instance theater replacing theatre.

Webster did indeed drop the colourful u's, with good reason (we are not
French), and jail is a clear improvement over the ludicrous gaol, with
similar favorable positions taken on draft/draught etc., but most of his
adjustments never caught on as canon, thru being the closest to making it.
Most of his attempts died on his tung (sic).

Canada mostly follows the American (-ize, jail, tire, etc.) but keeps the
French u's and re's. Australia is closer to Britain but sticks with jail
and tire. I'm sure every English speaking country has its own set, and each
is valid in place.

Language is rich, English orthography perhaps richest of all. Don't cast
aspersions, just be consistent. Most of all, don't believe that the Brits
are always "proper".

The Go team's spelling standard honors the modern American style. It needs
to pick something to be consistent, but you are of course free to do as you
will in your own world, and you should.

-rob




On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 8:08 AM Michael Jones 
wrote:

> In addition to being a daily Go programmer, I'm also a corporate executive
> in the US and a venture investment partner in the UK. This has me
> constantly surrounded by "proper" English and has made me very aware of the
> linguistic habits of my American upbringing. It seems that I've become an
> amalgam of the two, I say that "I was in hospital" for example, but name
> variables 'color' -- the result earning awkward glances on both sides of
> the Atlantic. My ear now prefers English English, in part from my love of
> the character of English people.
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:07 PM stíobhart matulevicz 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I know that a lot of what we think of as "American English"  words are
>> actually archaic forms of early 'English English'. Words like "gotten"
>> instead of "got", for example. But there's also a lot of blame or credit
>> (depending on your point of view) for the differences to be laid at the
>> door of a certain Mr. Noah Webster:
>>
>>
>> https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/amp/2018/05/07/noah-webster-american-identity-simplified-spelling-movement/
>>
>> I was kind of half-joking in my original post.  But, as someone who
>> considers himself highly literate,  I do actually find it does grate a
>> bit,  having to (from my point of view) deliberately spell words wrong,
>> when I'm coding.
>>
>> I get my revenge in the code comments though,  where I resolutely stick
>> to "colour", "centre", "programme", etc.
>>
>> I wonder if I'm am isolated case,  or whether any other native English
>> speakers are slightly irked by having to code in "bad spelling" too?
>>
>>
>> On 17 May 2019 21:26:29 Michael Jones  wrote:
>>
>>> I know that you joke here, but I had an interesting dinner conversation
>>> in London last year with erudite, scholarly friends who shared with me that
>>> recent research supports a different view of the "barbaric Americanised
>>> false English" that is the prevailing sentiment you share.
>>>
>>> According to the scholars they mentioned, "American English" is indeed a
>>> true, pure, "real" English; just one from a time-capsule, an English from
>>> 1776 that did not advance significantly since American independence. This
>>> view suggests that were a BBC presenter and an American to travel back to
>>> meet with King George, it would be the American who sounded "right" and not
>>> the other way around.
>>>
>>> This time-capsule argument is not an argument against modern evolved
>>> English, but it is an interesting notion of a living language in the
>>> homeland might become a historical artifact through cargo culting in the
>>> breakaway colony. Insightful as to human psychology and something to
>>> remember amongst the lessons of wisdom.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>> (a barbaric American-English 1776 throwback ;-)
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 9:41 AM  wrote:
>>>
 Spare a thought for those of us who actually speak and write 'proper'
 English and not that American version used in all programming languages.

 We get to write in our own language but have to remember to spell half
 the words wrong!

>

 --
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 Groups "golang-nuts" group.
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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Michael Jones]

In addition to being a daily Go programmer, I'm also a corporate executive
in the US and a venture investment partner in the UK. This has me
constantly surrounded by "proper" English and has made me very aware of the
linguistic habits of my American upbringing. It seems that I've become an
amalgam of the two, I say that "I was in hospital" for example, but name
variables 'color' -- the result earning awkward glances on both sides of
the Atlantic. My ear now prefers English English, in part from my love of
the character of English people.

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:07 PM stíobhart matulevicz 
wrote:

>
> I know that a lot of what we think of as "American English"  words are
> actually archaic forms of early 'English English'. Words like "gotten"
> instead of "got", for example. But there's also a lot of blame or credit
> (depending on your point of view) for the differences to be laid at the
> door of a certain Mr. Noah Webster:
>
>
> https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/amp/2018/05/07/noah-webster-american-identity-simplified-spelling-movement/
>
> I was kind of half-joking in my original post.  But, as someone who
> considers himself highly literate,  I do actually find it does grate a
> bit,  having to (from my point of view) deliberately spell words wrong,
> when I'm coding.
>
> I get my revenge in the code comments though,  where I resolutely stick to
> "colour", "centre", "programme", etc.
>
> I wonder if I'm am isolated case,  or whether any other native English
> speakers are slightly irked by having to code in "bad spelling" too?
>
>
> On 17 May 2019 21:26:29 Michael Jones  wrote:
>
>> I know that you joke here, but I had an interesting dinner conversation
>> in London last year with erudite, scholarly friends who shared with me that
>> recent research supports a different view of the "barbaric Americanised
>> false English" that is the prevailing sentiment you share.
>>
>> According to the scholars they mentioned, "American English" is indeed a
>> true, pure, "real" English; just one from a time-capsule, an English from
>> 1776 that did not advance significantly since American independence. This
>> view suggests that were a BBC presenter and an American to travel back to
>> meet with King George, it would be the American who sounded "right" and not
>> the other way around.
>>
>> This time-capsule argument is not an argument against modern evolved
>> English, but it is an interesting notion of a living language in the
>> homeland might become a historical artifact through cargo culting in the
>> breakaway colony. Insightful as to human psychology and something to
>> remember amongst the lessons of wisdom.
>>
>> Michael
>> (a barbaric American-English 1776 throwback ;-)
>>
>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 9:41 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> Spare a thought for those of us who actually speak and write 'proper'
>>> English and not that American version used in all programming languages.
>>>
>>> We get to write in our own language but have to remember to spell half
>>> the words wrong!
>>>

>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
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>>> 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Michael T. jonesmichael.jo...@gmail.com *
>>
>
>

-- 

*Michael T. jonesmichael.jo...@gmail.com *

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[stíobhart matulevicz]

I know that a lot of what we think of as "American English"  words are 
actually archaic forms of early 'English English'. Words like "gotten" 
instead of "got", for example. But there's also a lot of blame or credit 
(depending on your point of view) for the differences to be laid at the 
door of a certain Mr. Noah Webster:


https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/amp/2018/05/07/noah-webster-american-identity-simplified-spelling-movement/

I was kind of half-joking in my original post.  But, as someone who 
considers himself highly literate,  I do actually find it does grate a bit, 
having to (from my point of view) deliberately spell words wrong, when I'm 
coding.


I get my revenge in the code comments though,  where I resolutely stick to 
"colour", "centre", "programme", etc.


I wonder if I'm am isolated case,  or whether any other native English 
speakers are slightly irked by having to code in "bad spelling" too?



On 17 May 2019 21:26:29 Michael Jones  wrote:
I know that you joke here, but I had an interesting dinner conversation in 
London last year with erudite, scholarly friends who shared with me that 
recent research supports a different view of the "barbaric Americanised 
false English" that is the prevailing sentiment you share.



According to the scholars they mentioned, "American English" is indeed a 
true, pure, "real" English; just one from a time-capsule, an English from 
1776 that did not advance significantly since American independence. This 
view suggests that were a BBC presenter and an American to travel back to 
meet with King George, it would be the American who sounded "right" and not 
the other way around.



This time-capsule argument is not an argument against modern evolved 
English, but it is an interesting notion of a living language in the 
homeland might become a historical artifact through cargo culting in the 
breakaway colony. Insightful as to human psychology and something to 
remember amongst the lessons of wisdom.



Michael
(a barbaric American-English 1776 throwback ;-)


On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 9:41 AM  wrote:

Spare a thought for those of us who actually speak and write 'proper' 
English and not that American version used in all programming languages.



We get to write in our own language but have to remember to spell half the 
words wrong!







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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Michael Jones]

I know that you joke here, but I had an interesting dinner conversation in
London last year with erudite, scholarly friends who shared with me that
recent research supports a different view of the "barbaric Americanised
false English" that is the prevailing sentiment you share.

According to the scholars they mentioned, "American English" is indeed a
true, pure, "real" English; just one from a time-capsule, an English from
1776 that did not advance significantly since American independence. This
view suggests that were a BBC presenter and an American to travel back to
meet with King George, it would be the American who sounded "right" and not
the other way around.

This time-capsule argument is not an argument against modern evolved
English, but it is an interesting notion of a living language in the
homeland might become a historical artifact through cargo culting in the
breakaway colony. Insightful as to human psychology and something to
remember amongst the lessons of wisdom.

Michael
(a barbaric American-English 1776 throwback ;-)

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 9:41 AM  wrote:

> Spare a thought for those of us who actually speak and write 'proper'
> English and not that American version used in all programming languages.
>
> We get to write in our own language but have to remember to spell half the
> words wrong!
>
>>
>
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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Louki Sumirniy]

Oh, I don't mean 'funny' in a derogatory way. Some of them are beautiful 
and I find the languages that use them, fascinating grammar and etymology 
and differences in grammar. For me language is a general category of much 
interest, and programming very specific and use-targeted, but for sure, 
many computer languages are affected by the languages of its designers and 
some even are named to signify that, such as the syntax RPN, which is 
closely related to Lisp's syntax.

The issue about capitalisation and equivalence of symbols would make the 
use of languages without capitalisation difficult for sure. It's great to 
see that someone is actually caring enough about it to facilitate it. Go 
idiom prescribes certain policies with naming - I'd guess that if those 
rules were tightened up a bit more, and tools built to lint them, that 
fully translating into another script (even potentially rtl) would be a lot 
easier than the good old days when the compiler only recognised ascii.

On Friday, 3 May 2019 19:30:33 UTC+2, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:25 AM Louki Sumirniy 
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#General_Category_property 
> > 
> > This section in the wp entry lists these categories. 
> > 
> > So, in Go, actually, all identifiers can be in practically any language. 
> Even many of those funny african scripts and west asian languages! 
>
> Yes.  Note that those scripts are not funny for the people who use 
> them every day, they are just normal writing. 
>
> It gets a little more complicated when discussing which identifiers 
> are visible in other packages.  See https://golang.org/issue/5763 and 
> https://golang.org/issue/22188.  Separately, but related to this 
> general topic, see also https://golang.org/issue/20706 and 
> https://golang.org/issue/27896. 
>
> Ian 
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:25 AM Louki Sumirniy
 wrote:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#General_Category_property
>
> This section in the wp entry lists these categories.
>
> So, in Go, actually, all identifiers can be in practically any language. Even 
> many of those funny african scripts and west asian languages!

Yes.  Note that those scripts are not funny for the people who use
them every day, they are just normal writing.

It gets a little more complicated when discussing which identifiers
are visible in other packages.  See https://golang.org/issue/5763 and
https://golang.org/issue/22188.  Separately, but related to this
general topic, see also https://golang.org/issue/20706 and
https://golang.org/issue/27896.

Ian

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Louki Sumirniy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#General_Category_property 

This section in the wp entry lists these categories.

So, in Go, actually, all identifiers can be in practically any language. 
Even many of those funny african scripts and west asian languages!

On Friday, 3 May 2019 17:17:56 UTC+2, Jan Mercl wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:14 PM Louki Sumirniy 
> > wrote: 
>
> > If the 'letter' classification is the same as used in .NET's unicode 
> implementation, this info lists the categories of symbols that unicode 
> classifies as letters: 
>
> https://golang.org/ref/spec#Characters 
>
>  
> In The Unicode Standard 8.0, Section 4.5 "General Category" defines a 
> set of character categories. 
> Go treats all characters in any of the Letter categories Lu, Ll, Lt, 
> Lm, or Lo as Unicode letters, and 
> those in the Number category Nd as Unicode digits. 
>  
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Jan Mercl]

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:14 PM Louki Sumirniy
 wrote:

> If the 'letter' classification is the same as used in .NET's unicode 
> implementation, this info lists the categories of symbols that unicode 
> classifies as letters:

https://golang.org/ref/spec#Characters


In The Unicode Standard 8.0, Section 4.5 "General Category" defines a
set of character categories.
Go treats all characters in any of the Letter categories Lu, Ll, Lt,
Lm, or Lo as Unicode letters, and
those in the Number category Nd as Unicode digits.


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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Louki Sumirniy]

If the 'letter' classification is the same as used in .NET's unicode 
implementation, this info lists the categories of symbols that unicode 
classifies as letters:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.char.isletter?view=netframework-4.8

On Friday, 3 May 2019 17:11:55 UTC+2, Louki Sumirniy wrote:
>
> Oh, I *can* use UTF-8 in identifiers?? nooo:
>
> Identifiers name program entities such as variables and types. An 
> identifier is a sequence of one or more letters and digits. The first 
> character in an identifier must be a letter.
>
> identifier = letter { letter | unicode_digit } .
>
>  
>
> ...
>
>  
>
> Letters and digits
> The underscore character _ (U+005F) is considered a letter.
>
> letter= unicode_letter | "_" .
> decimal_digit = "0" … "9" .
> octal_digit   = "0" … "7" .
> hex_digit = "0" … "9" | "A" … "F" | "a" … "f" .
>
>
> but `unicode_letter` - what is that? Does that include such as æ ? If so 
> then I guess it would also allow ⻄ too.
>
> I have seen source code from chinese authors that has comments in cn 
> traditional. So does this mean, in theory, I can use any valid unicode 
> letter from alphabet (or even pictograpic) language scripts??
>
> On Friday, 3 May 2019 16:43:09 UTC+2, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:28 AM Louki Sumirniy 
>>  wrote: 
>> > 
>> > It would be incredibly computationally costly to add a natural language 
>> translator to the compilation process. I'm not sure, but I think also 
>> identifiers in Go can only be plain ASCII, ie pure latin script (and 
>> initial character must be a letter) 
>>
>> That turns out not to be the case.  The rules for identifiers are at 
>> https://golang.org/ref/spec#Identifiers, where the definition of 
>> "letter" is at https://golang.org/ref/spec#Characters . 
>>
>> Ian 
>>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Louki Sumirniy]

Oh, I *can* use UTF-8 in identifiers?? nooo:

Identifiers name program entities such as variables and types. An 
identifier is a sequence of one or more letters and digits. The first 
character in an identifier must be a letter.

identifier = letter { letter | unicode_digit } .

 

...

 

Letters and digits
The underscore character _ (U+005F) is considered a letter.

letter= unicode_letter | "_" .
decimal_digit = "0" … "9" .
octal_digit   = "0" … "7" .
hex_digit = "0" … "9" | "A" … "F" | "a" … "f" .


but `unicode_letter` - what is that? Does that include such as æ ? If so 
then I guess it would also allow ⻄ too.

I have seen source code from chinese authors that has comments in cn 
traditional. So does this mean, in theory, I can use any valid unicode 
letter from alphabet (or even pictograpic) language scripts??

On Friday, 3 May 2019 16:43:09 UTC+2, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:28 AM Louki Sumirniy 
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > It would be incredibly computationally costly to add a natural language 
> translator to the compilation process. I'm not sure, but I think also 
> identifiers in Go can only be plain ASCII, ie pure latin script (and 
> initial character must be a letter) 
>
> That turns out not to be the case.  The rules for identifiers are at 
> https://golang.org/ref/spec#Identifiers, where the definition of 
> "letter" is at https://golang.org/ref/spec#Characters . 
>
> Ian 
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[JuciÊ Andrade]

I think my poor choice of words induced a misunderstanding. When I said "we 
code in Portuguese" I meant "we prefer to pick words from Portuguese for 
identifiers". Sorry.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:43:09 AM UTC-3, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:28 AM Louki Sumirniy 
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > It would be incredibly computationally costly to add a natural language 
> translator to the compilation process.
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: the Dominance of English in Programming Languages

[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:28 AM Louki Sumirniy
 wrote:
>
> It would be incredibly computationally costly to add a natural language 
> translator to the compilation process. I'm not sure, but I think also 
> identifiers in Go can only be plain ASCII, ie pure latin script (and initial 
> character must be a letter)

That turns out not to be the case.  The rules for identifiers are at
https://golang.org/ref/spec#Identifiers, where the definition of
"letter" is at https://golang.org/ref/spec#Characters .

Ian

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