Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Adam Bartlett]

Dear Elie,

As a follow-up to our previous conversation, I have been in contact with Ichiro 
Fujinaga, who is leading the MEI neume encoding effort of the SIMSSA Project. 
He is interested in the prospect of sharing data between MEI and NABC, and 
seems supportive of the Gregorio Project. 

I have subscribed to the mailing list for the MEI Neume development effort 
here: http://music-encoding.org/community/mei-organization/interest-groups-ig/ 


I encourage anyone else who is interested in this project to do the same. It 
seems that it cold have much value to offer the Gregorio effort. The MEI effort 
seems to be at a much earlier stage of development than NABC, but the 
possibilites that it presents for integration into the vast array of manuscript 
data found in Cantus Ultimus  are immense. 

I would be glad to put you in touch with Ichiro directly if you might be 
interested in discussing possible collaborations between the two platforms.

Best regards,
Adam




On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:26 AM, Adam Bartlett  wrote:

Dear Elie,

>> In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project
>> described below I have learned that MEI itself is presently being
>> developed
> 
> Oh ok, I didn't understand that!

My apologies! There is a team that is actively working on developing further 
the attributes of MEI in order to capture all of the information found in the 
various chant manuscripts. I have seen a draft of a table for St. Gall that is 
quite detailed, beyond what is presently available in MEI, yet incomplete. The 
team hopes to identify these attributes and include them in MEI for future 
encoding.

>> Nonetheless, if there were to be a way for porting information
>> between the two systems, it seems like discussions between the
>> platforms as they develop /now/ would help ensure the greatest
>> success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this group could
>> offer that would help improve NABC also.
> 
> Sure! How are the people behind MEI reachable? Do they have a public
> mailing list for these questions? That would be interesting to reach them.


I have been having this conversation with Kate Helsen, who is a contributor to 
the project. She is now discussing this possible collaboration with the leaders 
of the Cantus Ultimus / SIMSSA project. I will report on her response.

Gratefully,
Adam


On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Élie Roux  wrote:

Dear Adam,

> In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project
> described below I have learned that MEI itself is presently being
> developed

Oh ok, I didn't understand that!

> Nonetheless, if there were to be a way for porting information
> between the two systems, it seems like discussions between the
> platforms as they develop /now/ would help ensure the greatest
> success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this group could
> offer that would help improve NABC also.

Sure! How are the people behind MEI reachable? Do they have a public
mailing list for these questions? That would be interesting to reach them.

Thank you,
-- 
Elie


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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Conor Cook]

It seems to me that those working on Gregorio and MEI should definitely be in 
touch.  If the MEI folks believe that MEI is best for academic research and 
Gregorio for practical typesetting, it stands to reason that they should be 
integrated, so that scholarly work on producing typeset manuscripts can be as 
accurate and successful as possible!

~Conor Cook

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Adam Bartlett]

Dear Elie,

>> In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project
>> described below I have learned that MEI itself is presently being
>> developed
> 
> Oh ok, I didn't understand that!

My apologies! There is a team that is actively working on developing further 
the attributes of MEI in order to capture all of the information found in the 
various chant manuscripts. I have seen a draft of a table for St. Gall that is 
quite detailed, beyond what is presently available in MEI, yet incomplete. The 
team hopes to identify these attributes and include them in MEI for future 
encoding.

>> Nonetheless, if there were to be a way for porting information
>> between the two systems, it seems like discussions between the
>> platforms as they develop /now/ would help ensure the greatest
>> success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this group could
>> offer that would help improve NABC also.
> 
> Sure! How are the people behind MEI reachable? Do they have a public
> mailing list for these questions? That would be interesting to reach them.


I have been having this conversation with Kate Helsen, who is a contributor to 
the project. She is now discussing this possible collaboration with the leaders 
of the Cantus Ultimus / SIMSSA project. I will report on her response.

Gratefully,
Adam


On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Élie Roux  wrote:

Dear Adam,

> In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project
> described below I have learned that MEI itself is presently being
> developed

Oh ok, I didn't understand that!

> Nonetheless, if there were to be a way for porting information
> between the two systems, it seems like discussions between the
> platforms as they develop /now/ would help ensure the greatest
> success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this group could
> offer that would help improve NABC also.

Sure! How are the people behind MEI reachable? Do they have a public
mailing list for these questions? That would be interesting to reach them.

Thank you,
-- 
Elie


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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Élie Roux]

Dear Adam,

> In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project
> described below I have learned that MEI itself is presently being
> developed

Oh ok, I didn't understand that!

> Nonetheless, if there were to be a way for porting information
> between the two systems, it seems like discussions between the
> platforms as they develop /now/ would help ensure the greatest
> success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this group could
> offer that would help improve NABC also.

Sure! How are the people behind MEI reachable? Do they have a public
mailing list for these questions? That would be interesting to reach them.

Thank you,
-- 
Elie

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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Adam Bartlett]

Dear Elie,

Thank you for the kind response to this idea.

In my discussions with one of the contributors to the project described below I 
have learned that MEI itself is presently being developed in order to capture 
all of the needed information and attributes that the manuscripts present. This 
is a work in progress. I saw a draft of a table of St. Gall neumes that the 
group is working on and sent the NABC table to them for comparison. I think 
that it is possible that Gregorio has already worked out some of the encoding 
problems, although, as you say, there are still problems to solve. Nonetheless, 
if there were to be a way for porting information between the two systems, it 
seems like discussions between the platforms as they develop now would help 
ensure the greatest success of the aim. Perhaps there are insights that this 
group could offer that would help improve NABC also.

Thank you for your openness to this idea, and to your willingness to help in 
some way in developing a script for porting data to MEI. I will continue 
conversations with those involved in the Cantus Ultimus / SIMSSA 
 project and be in touch about potential 
collaborations with Gregorio.

Yours sincerely,
Adam



On Aug 23, 2016, at 12:56 AM, Élie Roux  wrote:

Dear Adam,

Thank you for your very interesting email!

> The conversations tended toward a technology called MEI 
>  (Music Coding Initiative) which the 
> researchers believe can contain all of the needed information in
> chant manuscripts for effective querying, comparative analysis, etc.

Looking at

http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/neumes/

I think this is true most of the time, I'm just unsure about how it
deals with some rare neumes that don't appear in the list...

> I know that I have made use of Gregobase, however, for effective
> research queries and tend to think that GABC, and, potentially, NABC
> are systematic and thorough enough to achieve the same goal. The
> group appears to see MEI as the right language for research while
> GABC / NABC are perhaps best for producing practical editions.

Well, the main difference I see is that MEI is far less precise than
Gregorio for square notation. For instance MEI doesn't seem to allow
episemi, aucta, etc. and doesn't differenciate the many different ways
to write a pressus... Unless there is more than of MEI that I didn't see?

Also for nabc, I'm no expert but the situation seems to be exactly the
same, if you take a look at

https://github.com/gregorio-project/gregorio/releases/download/v4.2.0-rc3/GregorioNabcRef.pdf

you'll certainly see many neumes that you would all encode in the same
way in MEI.

> My question: I wonder if it might be possible to find a way to allow 
> GABC / NABC to communicate and share data with MEI?

I think it would be fairly easy to allow Gregorio to write MEI, but it
would be read-only: as there is more information in gabc or nabc than in
MEI, it seems that it would not make much sense to turn MEI into
gabc/nabc...

I'm not really sure about the best way to do that though. My first
idea would be a python script, but it would have to make an
interpretation of gabc which may be slightly different from Gregorio in
corner cases... or it could parse the "dump" output of gregorio... It
would have to interpret nabc anyway, as the interpretation in done on
the Lua side. What do other developers think?

> For those interested in research, the tools that the musicological 
> community could bring to the table appear to be quite immense. It
> seems that a digital Paleography Workshop could be assembled quite
> quickly with these tools—with Gregobase and all of the work done by
> Cantus, among others, a firm foundation is already in place.

Sure, that's a very good project!

> Is anyone here interested in this idea? Or of collaborating with the 
> Cantus group, or of finding ways to port GABC / NABC code over to 
> databases for musicological research?

I'm not able to invest much time into this project, but I can give a few
directions and hints. But it's possible that a script for converting
gabc/nabc into MEI is not that hard and could be make quickly at least
in a first version...

Thank you,
-- 
Elie

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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Herman Viaene]

On 22/08/16 21:04, Adam Bartlett wrote:

Hello All,



Some of you might have known Gregoire  , a notation tool originally 
written by someone from Solemnes IIRC. It has been long time dead, 
worked only on Windows XP. I just checked the website again, and now 
there seems to be a Windows 7 compatible version. I have not been able 
to test it yet. The website has sort  of been hijacked, I remember in 
the past one could share documents there, but the link is empty now. Pity


http://gregoire.tele.free.fr/index.php

Herman Viaene


A week ago I attended the Gregorian Institute of Canada Colloquium in 
Toronto which was, among other things, dedicated to digital chant 
research technologies and to the legacy of one of its pioneers, Andrew 
Hughes.


Many scholars working in digital chant research technologies 
(including the Cantus Database, SIMSSA, among others) were present and 
the state of chant manuscript encoding and database development was 
discussed with an eye toward future goals and priorities.


A few of us in attendance were Gregorio users and promoters, though 
many of those doing strict academic research were unfamiliar with the 
platform and its encoding languages. A conversation began about the 
possibility of linking the work and encoding languages of Gregorio 
with some of these research efforts, many of which are well staffed 
and funded.


The conversations tended toward a technology called MEI 
 (Music Coding Initiative) which the 
researchers believe can contain all of the needed information in chant 
manuscripts for effective querying, comparative analysis, etc. I know 
that I have made use of Gregobase, however, for effective research 
queries and tend to think that GABC, and, potentially, NABC are 
systematic and thorough enough to achieve the same goal. The group 
appears to see MEI as the right language for research while GABC / 
NABC are perhaps best for producing practical editions.


My question: I wonder if it might be possible to find a way to allow 
GABC / NABC to communicate and share data with MEI?


For those interested in research, the tools that the musicological 
community could bring to the table appear to be quite immense. It 
seems that a digital Paleography Workshop could be assembled quite 
quickly with these tools—with Gregobase and all of the work done by 
Cantus, among others, a firm foundation is already in place. Such an 
effort could help those among us who are interested in producing more 
critical performance editions of the chant—per the request of 
Sacrosanctum Concilum 117—to do so rather easily and even 
collaboratively.


Is anyone here interested in this idea? Or of collaborating with the 
Cantus group, or of finding ways to port GABC / NABC code over to 
databases for musicological research?


I would be curious to know the thoughts of the Gregorio community on 
these ideas.


Yours faithfully,
Adam Bartlett


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--
Veel mensen danken hun goed geweten aan hun slecht geheugen. (G. Bomans)

Lots of people owe their good conscience to their bad memory (G. Bomans)

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Re: [Gregorio-users] GABC / NABC Music Encoding for Research

[Élie Roux]

Dear Adam,

Thank you for your very interesting email!

> The conversations tended toward a technology called MEI 
>  (Music Coding Initiative) which the 
> researchers believe can contain all of the needed information in
> chant manuscripts for effective querying, comparative analysis, etc.

Looking at

http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/neumes/

I think this is true most of the time, I'm just unsure about how it
deals with some rare neumes that don't appear in the list...

> I know that I have made use of Gregobase, however, for effective
> research queries and tend to think that GABC, and, potentially, NABC
> are systematic and thorough enough to achieve the same goal. The
> group appears to see MEI as the right language for research while
> GABC / NABC are perhaps best for producing practical editions.

Well, the main difference I see is that MEI is far less precise than
Gregorio for square notation. For instance MEI doesn't seem to allow
episemi, aucta, etc. and doesn't differenciate the many different ways
to write a pressus... Unless there is more than of MEI that I didn't see?

Also for nabc, I'm no expert but the situation seems to be exactly the
same, if you take a look at

https://github.com/gregorio-project/gregorio/releases/download/v4.2.0-rc3/GregorioNabcRef.pdf

you'll certainly see many neumes that you would all encode in the same
way in MEI.

> My question: I wonder if it might be possible to find a way to allow 
> GABC / NABC to communicate and share data with MEI?

I think it would be fairly easy to allow Gregorio to write MEI, but it
would be read-only: as there is more information in gabc or nabc than in
MEI, it seems that it would not make much sense to turn MEI into
gabc/nabc...

I'm not really sure about the best way to do that though. My first
idea would be a python script, but it would have to make an
interpretation of gabc which may be slightly different from Gregorio in
corner cases... or it could parse the "dump" output of gregorio... It
would have to interpret nabc anyway, as the interpretation in done on
the Lua side. What do other developers think?

> For those interested in research, the tools that the musicological 
> community could bring to the table appear to be quite immense. It
> seems that a digital Paleography Workshop could be assembled quite
> quickly with these tools—with Gregobase and all of the work done by
> Cantus, among others, a firm foundation is already in place.

Sure, that's a very good project!

> Is anyone here interested in this idea? Or of collaborating with the 
> Cantus group, or of finding ways to port GABC / NABC code over to 
> databases for musicological research?

I'm not able to invest much time into this project, but I can give a few
directions and hints. But it's possible that a script for converting
gabc/nabc into MEI is not that hard and could be make quickly at least
in a first version...

Thank you,
-- 
Elie

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