ou and Andreas: you lot did an
impressive job. I really like the new logo as well.
> The plan is to upload these pages on Tuesday sometime. If anyone has any
> issues to take up before then, let me know.
none from me.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://w
o read automake tutorial as well:
http://sources.redhat.com/automake/automake.html
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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when I proposed the desktop bookmarks spec[1], I used
$HOME/.shortcuts.xbel as the proposed storage file for the file selector
shortcuts; this should probably be changed to
$XDG_DATA_DIR/shortcuts.xbel or similar - I have no strong feelings
towards either solutions.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emma
uts.xbel or similar - I have no strong feelings
> > towards either solutions.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I would opt for $XDG_DATA_DIR/shortcuts.xbel.
the recent files storage could be moved there as well.
> May i forward your mail to the xdg-list?
sure.
ciao,
Emm
> * Miscellaneous
>
> i'd like to add:
> * Migrating gtk.org contents to the machine that is currently cube.gtk.org
added to the wiki page, thanks.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
mp;day=12&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
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= gtk_widget_get_screen (parent);
if (!screen)
screen = gdk_screen_get_default ();
ciao,
Emmanuele.
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I commonly use jhbuild for projects in and outsite the platform, and
I've been doing so in the past few years; so I fully support the
original reply: jhbuild is the correct way to develop with checkouts of
gtk+, and in general the whole GNOME platform, without screwing up y
ugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=104926&action=view
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=104927&action=view
the last attachment is the port of the X11 backend to the new
GdkWindowImpl interface.
--
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W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http
a it would have been a
completely different story - but the UI layout of an application *is*
the application, it's not user data.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
_
regression ;)
it's not a segfault, it's a GError; and GtkBuilder is a completely new
implementation that doesn't even load the same files unless you pass
them through a converter, so it's not a "regression".
ciao,
Emmanuele.
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ose platforms should be able to provide the same
way of passing a native window for Clutter to use to draw on. I'd really
like to ask to the Quartz and Windows gtk+ backends maintainers to give
a look at Clutter and help us.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emman
le.com/codesearch
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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].
everyone can participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=5&day=13&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
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W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
same question on this very list:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2008-April/msg00035.html
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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epare a list of outstanding 2.13 items before next meeting
* rework the gobject tutorial
- it is old and unmaintained
- the signals section is broken
- teaches bad practises
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2008-05-27, 20:00 UTC
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emma
ele.
--
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ing/modifying the string returned by _() around without
copying it first have always been broken and should be fixed.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
___
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tefan
> >
> > irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
> > next meeting: 2008-05-27, 20:00 UTC
> >
> > ciao,
> > Emmanuele.
> >
>
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/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=3&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
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latforms.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
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[I assume you wanted to keep the list in the loop... :-)]
[on a related note: I'm subscribed to the list - could people stop
cc-ing me in when replying? I lose threads]
On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:51 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 14:34 +0100, Emmanuele Bas
easier to have a public GtkFileChooser interface
ACTION: consider for gtk+ 2.13 (mclasen, garnacho)
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2008-05-17, 20:00 UTC
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
pre-processing source versus
> > preprocessing source).
>
> Different, and inferior.
thank you for your interesting and well-detailed take on the design of
GLib and GObject.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
_
ou and your asshat
attitude.
+++
for this thread I removed myself from the Code of Conduct, which is
obviously useless with poisonous people like you or the QT homeboy on
this thread.
not only that, I'm also unsubscribing gtk-devel-list because I quite
sick and tired of people hijacking develop
/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=17&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi, OpenedHand Ltd.
Unit R, Homesdale Business Centre
216-218 Homesdale Rd., Bromley - BR12QZ
http://www.o-hand.com
___
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-07-01, 20:00 UTC or 2008-07-08.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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notified on the wiki page[0].
everyone can participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=7&day=1&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://
On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 02:08 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > hi everyone;
> >
> > this is the usual reminder for the IRC GTK+ Team Meeting. the meeting
> > will be held in the #gtk-deve
atus" - we're one week from guadec, and should
> > probably collect a list of things that we need to finish up before
> > 2.14, and talk about the schedule.
>
> I'd like us to consider adding EggToolPallete to GTK+. tbf (Mathias
> Hasselmann) shou
ACTION: bratsche will revert the changes to sources and docs
ACTION: the only change will be to the pc file description
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2007-07-08, 12:00 at GUADEC
--
Emmanuele Bassi, OpenedHand Ltd.
Unit R, Homesdale Business Centre
216-218
iao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=7&day=22&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
__
c log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2007-08-05, 20:00 UTC on #gtk-devel
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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htt
usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=17&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
n)
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2008-08-26, 20:00 UTC
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
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B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 11:14 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 17:23 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
> > hi everyone;
> >
> > this is the usual reminder for the IRC GTK+ Team Meeting. the meeting
> > will be held in the #gtk-devel channel on irc.gn
wiki page[0].
everyone can participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=8&day=26&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.em
: 2008-09-09, 20:00 UTC
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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].
everyone can participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=9&day=23&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2008-10-07, 20:00 UTC
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
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B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=10&day=21&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
() should skip notify:: handling
just add an entry in the agenda points on the GTK+/Meetings wiki page
and make sure to pop in the meeting on time. :-)
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
_
and there is work to do for the submitters. Next
> time I just add it to the wiki.
cool. I removed the point from the wiki.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
___
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changes will be notified on the wiki page[0].
everyone can participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=11&day=10&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
I obviously suck. the meeting is schedule for November the 11th, at
20:00 UTC.
sorry for the confusion.
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 14:48 +, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
> hi everyone;
>
> this is the usual reminder for the IRC GTK+ Team Meeting. the meeting
> will be held in the #gtk-deve
hold status
+ blocks on signal name, animation and themeing
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: 2008-11-25, 20:00 UTC
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
___
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,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=11&day=25&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
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W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
+ move all the special casing from inside GtkAction into the proxies
+ useful for non-UIManager code
+ glade, GtkBuilder
+ issues with notification overhead
irc log available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
next meeting: December 9, 2008 at 20:00 UTC
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emman
usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=12&day=16&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
[2] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346451
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.em
participate, as usual.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[0] http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=01&day=20&year=2009&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http:
the log is available at: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/Meetings
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
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B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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PI round up" sent to gtk-devel
- "would be nice" for 2.16:
- GeditMessageArea port to gtk+
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
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W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
___
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rate libgirepository-1.0.so ==
I'd obviously favour either option 1) or 2), with a slight preference
for 1). being able to refactor parts of the GType system using
introspection would be a killer feature.
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
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the page for the current default values for
properties and child properties:
http://live.gnome.org/GTK%2B/PropertyDefaults
something like: GTK+/StylePropertyDefaults
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi,
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name
B: http://blogs
20:00 UTC. if
anyone has issues with the day/time then feel free to contact me either
on gtk-devel-list, in private or on IRC. otherwise, we can have a IRC
meeting next Tuesday (October 6th); this should give people enough time
to schedule stuff around. :-)
ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
hi everyone;
this is a reminder for the GTK+ team IRC meeting,
* date: 2009-10-06
* time: 20:00 UTC [0]
* channel: #gtk-devel on irc.gnome.org
* agenda:
- gobject-performance branch status
- gtk+ 2.90 branch
- GLib 2.22 branch and future
- GtkFileSystemModel branch status
- Miscella
hi;
the meeting is today. :-)
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 11:26 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
> hi everyone;
>
> this is a reminder for the GTK+ team IRC meeting,
>
> * date: 2009-10-06
> * time: 20:00 UTC [0]
> * channel: #gtk-devel on irc.gnome.org
> * agenda:
> -
review a patch for specific
subsystems (TextBuffer, TreeView)
- would be good to have the bug review mail to gtk-devel
next IRC meeting: 2009-10-20
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B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi
___
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hi everyone;
this is a (late) reminder for the GTK+ team IRC meeting,
* date: 2009-10-20
* time: 20:00 UTC [0]
* channel: #gtk-devel on irc.gnome.org
* agenda:
- Git repository surgery [jjardon]
- state of development branches for 2.20/2.90
- xi2
- resolution independence
- client
= minutes for the 2009-10-20 meeting =
1. schedule post 2.20 [bratsche]
- aim for 3.0 after 2.20
- list of things to deprecate, including signals and properties
- figure out a diagnostic mode
[discussion degenerates into pet features]
- cross all items from the 3.0 readiness wiki page
ACTION:
hi everyone;
this is a reminder for the GTK+ team IRC meeting:
* date: 2009-10-27
* time: 20:00 UTC [0]
* channel: #gtk-devel on irc.gnome.org
* agenda:
- fundamental types for gint16/guint16 (bug: 562498) [jjardon]
- use target milestone field in bugzilla for creating release-based queries
hi everyone;
this is a reminder for the GTK+ team IRC meeting:
◦ date: 2009-11-10
◦ time: 20:00 UTC [0]
◦ channel: #gtk-devel on irc.gnome.org
◦ agenda:
• RyanLortie: input on bug 600141
• RyanLortie: libmodel
• RyanLortie: GVariant merge (bug: 600271)
• miscellaneous
as always, everyone
is most likely
already installed by default. I do not want to add Yet Another Library
on the dependency chain, but I also don't see major problems adding a
library like libxml2.
I've attached a prototype API for GtkRecentItem and GtkRecentManager
(already set to live in libegg, for the tim
On 6/2/05, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On the UI side, we should have a GtkRecentChooserDialog and a
> > GtkRecentChooserWidget, for which I have prepared a mockup at the GUADEC
ng inside Gtk-bar-some-library to handle those
recently used resources, for applications to register their data. And a
widget (or a set of widgets) in order to maintain consistency.
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Web site: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
Hi,
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 01:34 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> Sorry, but what are the latency reasons involved here?
> >
> > Parsing could be an issue on older machines - even if XML parsing has
s does not mean that we should not
provide some other way to access this data.
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
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Hi,
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:14 -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> On 6/3/05, Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 03:46 +0400, Nickolay V. Shmyrev wrote:
> >
> > > Emmanuele, really the best way to provide access to
y name files, if
> you don't want to get mad later looking for them.
Maybe we should name the files ourselves, and get rid of the entry
altogether; this would solve every problem.
Please: are you seriously advocating that we put a tutorial in each
file-related dialog?
Kind regards,
Emmanuele
Hi,
On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 14:07 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> That's it. Very simple, very common. Currently, I can open one menu
> >> (Places->Recent Documents) and 'solve' tha
Hi,
On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 14:57 +0300, Aschwin van der Woude wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 08:43 +, DANIELLLANO wrote:
> > Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
> > > What if you want to open a document you edited some time ago (but not
> > > too long), and it went out of the men
Hi,
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 00:44 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:19 +0200, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
>
> > I've attached a prototype API for GtkRecentItem and GtkRecentManager
> > (already set to live in libegg, for the time being). Let me kno
Hi,
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 00:37 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:19 +0200, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
>
> > I've spoken with Federico at GUADEC about the recently used files
> > handling, and we came up with some ideas for improving the curren
Hi,
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 12:28 +0100, David A Knight wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 10:34 +0200, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
>
> > The recently used manager is checked by GtkFileChooser: developers need
> > not to meddle with a RecentManager object directely. Once a document is
&
Hi all,
* Emmanuele Bassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I have a generic GObject-based parser (which currently doesn't handle
> metadata, at least until I come up with an idea on how to register
> custom objects representing custom metadata), and a GObject-based parser
> specific
?
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
--
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Hi all,
The CVS got back working, so I've committed the patches...
The question stays, though: if we are going to replace the recent-files
stuff, I'll have to drop the current code as soon as I put the new
RecentManager code in.
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
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Hi,
On 7/2/05, Christian Neumair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 12:22 +0200 schrieb Emmanuele Bassi:
> > The CVS got back working, so I've committed the patches...
> >
> > The question stays, though: if we are going to replace the rece
ton, we've got recovery" sense.
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add a deprecation warning
inside libegg/recent-files/README. I also plan to move the storage
backend of EggRecentModel to the RecentManager storage format, in order
to show the same data from both objects.
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
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Web site
t showing the recently used resources list
should be painless.
There are examples in the source, anyway.
Regards,
Emmanuele.
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itself, a simplier API should be enough}
Any comments/thoughts/flames?
Kind regards,
Emmanuele.
[1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=314428
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he "tab_label" parameter of the
gtk_notebook_*_page functions.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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ently used documents; class which we don't have - and most likely,
we won't have. So, if anyone whishes to hack on supporting the recently
used files under OSX, please: feel free to ping me.
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Hi Tor,On 9/26/05, Tor Lillqvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Emmanuele Bassi writes: > Win32[1] has its own Most Recently Used list. It is stored inside the > registry, in a per-application sub-tree; that is: each application > directory has its own MRU list.
The docs for SH
Hi James,
On 10/3/05, James Henstridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
>
> >* Strategy
> >==
> >
> >Obviously, we can't have two APIs, so the best thing that I could come
> >up with was:
> >
> >1. we use, fo
- Please use G_DEFINE_TYPE where appropriate
Ditto.
> When running test-recent-menu I noticed that the widget makes
> not-found items insensitive, while the menu does not.
It was done to test both cases. :-)
+++
Thanks for your review.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
+++
[1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147434
[2] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157377
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ce every project that has to deal with ISO8601 dates might
eventually benefit of this code.
Thanks,
Emmanuele.
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Hi James,
On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 11:23 +0800, James Henstridge wrote:
> Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
>
> >Uhm, I'll put that code under #idef G_OS_UNIX/#endif guards for the time
> >being, but the getenv("TZ")/setenv("TZ") timezone trick should work on
&
gt;
> where days_since_19700101 comes out of GDate.
I've already updated the timestamp_from_iso8601 function using libsoup's
equivalent code, after James pointed that out.
The fixes are in libegg HEAD (libegg/bookmarkfile).
Thanks,
Emmanuele.
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of creating a new StringList type, since,
if you want a list of GString, you can always iterate on the returned
strings vector.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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do_something ((GString *) iter->data);
to iterate though the list, which would break the least-surprise
principle, since you would have to use a G(S)List pointer to iterate
through a GStringList.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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ng "Warning, warning, Will Robinson: this object
has a floating reference when created".
This way we would avoid unnecessary binding breakage like what happenend
with the Perl bindings, and a warning for the users of the library.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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Hi Jonathan,
On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 11:01 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 22:35 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>
> > 2006-01-23 Matthias Clasen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Add GtkLinkButton, a port of GnomeHRef. (#314808, Emmanuele Bassi)
than that, I think it could be useful to have this signal.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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gi?id=335425
[6] The actual lines of code are in the order of ~3500: as it is, the
BookmarkFile code has nearly 300 lines of debug/profiling code
conditionally compiled in, plus many redundant checks.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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t if for the development *of* the gtk libraries: if you want to
developer *with* the gtk libraries, subscribe to the gtk-app-devel list.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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nerated, so it might make sense to use a boxed type.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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too much on the safe side, but it's
redundant code indeed.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
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Hi Murray,
On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 22:18 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 21:28 +0200, Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
> > Hi Murray,
> >
> > On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 21:01 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote:
> > It's a real question - not a rhetorical one: making
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