Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
I had some lace that my father brought home from Belgium France after WWII that was probably the same color as yours. I wanted to use it on my wedding gown (Edwardian style). We went into New York and scoured the garment district, thinking an off-white/cream/candlelight silk would be perfect. All of those were hideous! What was absolutely gorgeous was a pale pink (rather unheard for a wedding dress in 1982 where I was). We washed the lace in the stuff they use to wash horses -- starts with a 'c', can't think of the name. Kate -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Wanda Pease Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:01 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars I just opened a box of my mother's which must have been put away by her mother not long after she married in 1900. It has several lace neck pieces. There are collars, both stand up and smooth around the neckline, one gorgeous one that is a high neck with points across the shoulders and one down the front. Two that are attached to dickies/partlets and must be to fill in the front of a deep V neck. Being totally ignorant about lace... were they ever supposed to be white? The most beautiful three are ecru (?) or a coffee with lots of cream shade. I'm not silly enough to put them in a bleaching solution. I thought putting them out in the sunlight maybe? Are they supposed to be that color? If they are how do you wear them? On a plain necked white blouse? How about the two that are on a dickie/partlet (sleeveless sheer that is just long enough to go under the arms with the decoration at the neckline and throat). They can't go on over a shirt if the shirt is to be seen. Something like a deep V vest? One of the partlet's seems to be almost elastic in that the mesh stretches enough so it will go over my front without pulling. They aren't Perfect in that they have been worn and used but they are all in very good shape for being over 100 years old now. I'd like to be able to wear them for special occasions, or even know how they looked and were worn when my Grandmother owned them. I never knew her, she died 15 years before I was born. In the same box was the little gold (not expensive I'm sure) fob watch she had been given as a college (!) graduation present. She had spent 2 years at Normal School after graduating from High School and received a teaching degree. The watch must have been precious to her because it came with her when she married, trekked west from Wisconsin to homestead in South Dakota (you still could then), lost everything (don't try and homestead in South Dakota = ever!), and followed by grandfather with their two little girls around the West working at whatever they could (this isn't the first economic downturn with hints of the Great Depression!. They finally wound up in Oregon where the oldest daughter, after being a maid for a year, decided she was going to College (in 1925!) and they moved to Corvallis, Oregon and everyone worked to put her through a degree as a Dietician. Sadly she died while doing her internship in California - appendectomies were touch and go then - she died on the table. My grandfather was run down by a Model Tee car he was cranking and that left Grandmother and my mother alone. My mother decided that she was going to college too since they lived right at Oregon State College. She and my Grandmother went to work to make it happen. Mother said that whenever anyone told Grandmother that her daughter should forget this silliness and get a job they would be told No! in no uncertain manner. Mother graduated as a pharmacist in 1934. I wish I'd known Jenni Mae Horn (or Horne as her guardian insisted on spelling it). She wasn't born to wealth, but she was born to comfort. She made it through some very hard times and kept her family together and going when it would have been easy to simply quit. I'm getting that watch fixed and passing it to the Great Grand-daughters of Jenni Mae Horn-Gilbert. I may give it to their mother, my nephew's wife and ask her to wear it and tell them the story so they will associate it with her as well as family history. Wanda ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
At 08:14 AM 3/9/2009, you wrote: I had some lace that my father brought home from Belgium France after WWII that was probably the same color as yours. I wanted to use it on my wedding gown (Edwardian style). We went into New York and scoured the garment district, thinking an off-white/cream/candlelight silk would be perfect. All of those were hideous! What was absolutely gorgeous was a pale pink (rather unheard for a wedding dress in 1982 where I was). We washed the lace in the stuff they use to wash horses -- starts with a 'c', can't think of the name. Kate I think you mean Orvus. It's also sold in quilt shops for washing antique quilts. It's pure sodium laurel sulfate; no additives of any sort. Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
I think you're thinking of Orvis paste--the stuff to wash horses. The gentlest thing to do is just soak them in lukewarm water, let the dirt fall out, and spread them out someplace flat to dry. If you feel soap is necessary, something without additives, like Orvis paste, Ivory Snow, or Tide Free is a good choice. Dissolve a little in the water first, then lay the laces in it, and let them soak. Lift them out gently, and soak in a clean lukewarm bath to rinse. Repeat once or twice. As far as *how* they would have been worn, that's hard to say without seeing them. Some of them may have been made to go with a specific garment, others may have been intended to swap around. Emma Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:14 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars I had some lace that my father brought home from Belgium France after WWII that was probably the same color as yours. I wanted to use it on my wedding gown (Edwardian style). We went into New York and scoured the garment district, thinking an off-white/cream/candlelight silk would be perfect. All of those were hideous! What was absolutely gorgeous was a pale pink (rather unheard for a wedding dress in 1982 where I was). We washed the lace in the stuff they use to wash horses -- starts with a 'c', can't think of the name. Kate ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
Yep, orvis is what I used. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of e...@huskers.unl.edu Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:44 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars I think you're thinking of Orvis paste--the stuff to wash horses. The gentlest thing to do is just soak them in lukewarm water, let the dirt fall out, and spread them out someplace flat to dry. If you feel soap is necessary, something without additives, like Orvis paste, Ivory Snow, or Tide Free is a good choice. Dissolve a little in the water first, then lay the laces in it, and let them soak. Lift them out gently, and soak in a clean lukewarm bath to rinse. Repeat once or twice. As far as *how* they would have been worn, that's hard to say without seeing them. Some of them may have been made to go with a specific garment, others may have been intended to swap around. Emma Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:14 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars I had some lace that my father brought home from Belgium France after WWII that was probably the same color as yours. I wanted to use it on my wedding gown (Edwardian style). We went into New York and scoured the garment district, thinking an off-white/cream/candlelight silk would be perfect. All of those were hideous! What was absolutely gorgeous was a pale pink (rather unheard for a wedding dress in 1982 where I was). We washed the lace in the stuff they use to wash horses -- starts with a 'c', can't think of the name. Kate ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
Oh, my! Wanda! Thank you so very much for sharing that incredible family story. How wonderful of you to make sure it continues. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Wanda Pease Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:01 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars I just opened a box of my mother's which must have been put away by her mother not long after she married in 1900. It has several lace neck pieces. There are collars, both stand up and smooth around the neckline, one gorgeous one that is a high neck with points across the shoulders and one down the front. Two that are attached to dickies/partlets and must be to fill in the front of a deep V neck. --- End of Original Message --- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
Wanda wrote: Being totally ignorant about lace... were they ever supposed to be white? The most beautiful three are ecru (?) or a coffee with lots of cream shade. I'm not silly enough to put them in a bleaching solution. I thought putting them out in the sunlight maybe? If you decide you'd like to see if they will become whiter, and you have a suitable patch of healthy green grass where they won't be disturbed (by wind, humans or beasts ;) you could try dampening them and laying them out on the grass on a sunny day. Supposedly the combination of sunlight, moisture and the chlorophyll in the grass can provide a very gentle bleaching action. (I've never tried it, but so says the tradition...) 0 Chris Laning | clan...@igc.org + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
Chris Laning wrote: Supposedly the combination of sunlight, moisture and the chlorophyll in the grass can provide a very gentle bleaching action. (I've never tried it, but so says the tradition...) Linen will bleach naturally in the sun. I have no idea what her lace is made from, but I would be leery of exposing fibers that old to direct UV, which can definitely damage cotton and silk fibers. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Browned lace Edwardian? Collars
If you decide you'd like to see if they will become whiter, and you have a suitable patch of healthy green grass where they won't be disturbed (by wind, humans or beasts ;) you could try dampening them and laying them out on the grass on a sunny day. Supposedly the combination of sunlight, moisture and the chlorophyll in the grass can provide a very gentle bleaching action. Sunlight itself provides a bleaching action and damages the material in the process--as anyone can see by checking the backs of their window curtains, if those have been up for a while. However, both the negative and positive effects of sunlight, except for drying the item faster, are mostly visible in the long term. The traditional process of bleaching new linen takes weeks, if I recall correctly. The curtains will not start to weaken for some time, and you may not notice weakness, as opposed to a change in color, until you clean them. I've collected and worn vintage lace for many years, and have dealt with many straight-from-the-attic boxes of it that my father bought at estate sales. They can be quite dirty; but on the other hand the Victorians and Edwardians were very fond of ecru and cream-colored laces--as am I. They were not so fond of bright pure white, though some of the machine-embroidered trims were originally closer to this color than to cream. One of the problems you occasionally run into is white items that were bleached with too much sulfuric acid (a not uncommon practice). They only have tiny acid holes before you wash them, but become rags very early in the washing process. There is no solution for this--throw them out. Museum processes designed to preserve artistically fine, and/or historically interesting, and or financially valuable items for a collection, such as washing in pure soap, using distilled water, and never putting the item to practical use, are strictly voluntary for an amateur preparing ordinary items for practical wear. In my experience, if the lace does not look or smell filthy, a hand washing in a conservative amount of Woolite (more soap just means more rinsing) and lots of hand rinsing to remove all the Woolite and all the dirt, followed by flat drying, works just fine. If the lace is really filthy or stained, a hand wash involving a little oxygen bleach can help. It's usually possible to remove all the dirt, but it is usually impossible to remove old stains. I don't even want to try to bleach out that lovely ecru color--I never use oxygen bleach on it no matter how dirty it is. However, you may be able to rescue a stained but sound cream-colored lace by dyeing it ecru. I am not a fan of drying on the grass. I dry my antique lace and lingerie on a rack either in the bathroom or, on sunny days, a sheltered little patio right next to the bathroom. Grass tends to be dirty--full of bits of leaves, twigs, seeds, etc.--the neighborhood cats come around to check out the laundry, and the wind blows it around (especially when it is nearly dry). Never machine wash antique lace; and when you are not actually using/wearing it, it is better to store it in a closed box. As for how to wear/use it, that depends entirely on your goals. You can make up a similar reproduction item. You can make a modern item and use vintage collars, cuffs, appliques, and trim. You can sew doilies and scraps to your modern T-shirts. You can make arty collages. Whatever you like. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Flemish Dress
I wanted to thank everyone who replayed. I have finished the garment, with just the two layers of wool (no interlilning or anything esle-except a bit of boning for the front edge) and it turned out nicely. it does wrinkle a little, but no more then in some of the paintings. I will post a picture when i get a decent one. thanks again for all imput. jordana On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:55 AM, J A Urbik jaur...@gmail.com wrote: Eureka! or rather, while putting the bodice together, I found a quote that might be why i had decided to line the skirt with wool as well as the bodice, beyond the whole making it reversible. though since this time I am Drea's directions unlike before when I made my own sewing directions (so i could sandwich the skirt between the bodice layers instead of making both seperate, and tehn attaching the two together) i actually was able to find this quote. here is the quote from Drea's web page The skirts in 16th century genre paintings were lined-all those where the lining could be seen, that is. The lining was often a contrasting fabric, and was very likely wool rather than linen. found on http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lowerclass/makeflem.html I am sorry if i am slavishly quoting her, but i would really rather not do the original research myself, if i don't have to. I am just too lazy i think. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Rebecca Schmitt lotsofteap...@charter.net wrote: Thanks for the explanation! I'm curious now too, were you only going to line the bodice, or the whole skirt as well? I just imagine that lining the skirt with wool would be incredibly heavy, no matter how light the wool is to start with. Rebecca Schmitt aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence, Bristol Renn Faire * -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of J A Urbik Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 6:42 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Flemish Dress I chose to line with wool for two reasons. reason 1) Drea sais that the shrinerose gown was lined with wool, so i figured i'd go with that. This gown bodice will have three pieces: one back, and two front pieces. Lining is optional. The shinrone gown was partially lined with wool; it is a rather complex lining process, involving extending the bodice pattern down and folding the excess fabric up on the inside. I tried it, and it made quite a respectable gown bodice. reason 2) it is fairly easy to make the gowns reversable, so I do so, and I figured that if I wanted wool on the outside, and i wanted it reversable, I needed wool on both sides. reasson 3) not a big deal, but if one wants wool, one of the reasons that one wants wool is that it hanges diffrently then linen, and so lining with linen would change the hang? this one i am not too sure of cause i have not done much with wool in the past. On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Rebecca Schmitt lotsofteap...@charter.net wrote: I'm curious why you decided to line with wool as well as use wool for the top fabric? Most of the extant garments I can think of (and, admittedly, my memory on this is not spectacular!) are lined with linen. I made an overgown of this sort a few years back, with the outside a mid-to-lightweight wool and the lining linen; I'm pretty sure I did not use an interlining of any sort. I it cut away in the front quite a bit, so it really doesn't come together much past the shoulder straps. It's very comfy, although it does wrinkle some. That doesn't really bother me much - the ease of movement as I chase my 3-year-old is much more important! Rebecca Schmitt aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence, Bristol Renn Faire * -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of J A Urbik Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:40 AM To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Flemish Dress Hi all, am making this year's edition of the whole flemish dress, this time I am making a Gored Kirtle (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/kirtlepat/gored.html) and an overdress (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lowerclass/makeflem.html#gown). In the past I had made both under and overdress out of linen, because I was mostly doing summer events. However, this time I am going to make the overdress out of wool, with wool as the lining. Both are fairly light weight, and we will see about how hot it is (i actually think it should be book, at least for non-extremely hot days, and for the really hot days, a couple of pieces of ice down the bodice should do wonders). What I would like advise about would be should I put an addition layer of sturdy linen or something as an underlining on the bodice, or will the just the wool be ok? I know I
[h-cost] alencon lace
Does it ever come in black? All I can find is white, and I know it won't dye well. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
