Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
And we won't even go into the Spanish weirdness, which is an entire 'nother topic all on its own. :-) My first quick impression on seeing the first picture was Spanish. They had a number of strange sideless surcoat variations. Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
These are not young girls - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, in a part of the world that tends to unusual fashions, and then the picture is from a different country, so who knows what they thought she might have worn? Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do the fillets on the heads mean these troubadours were young girls? Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timetraveltextiles.com -- Original message -- From: Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey guys, I thought that you may find these two portraits interesting: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg92detail.jpg http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg93detail.jpg Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Hey guys, I thought that you may find these two portraits interesting: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg92detail.jpg http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg93detail.jpg Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). On the page 93 detail, note the fur lined cloak and what appears to be buttons down the front bodice (buttons are shown along the sleeves of the GFD underneath in both images). Some form of closure would be required on both, given the high neckline. In both surcotes are what appear to be slits for hands and a full gore set into the front. These are image details of the troubadour Castelloza extracted from Lemaître, Jean-Loup ; Francoise Vielliard . Portraits de troubadours: initiales des chansonniers provencaux I K (Paris, BNF, ms. Fr. 854 et 12473). Ussel: Musee du pays d'Ussel, 2006. ISBN:2903920354 9782903920357 OCLC:68706473 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/68706473 There are 170 illuminated capitals containing portraits of troubadours. These are reproduced as full page illustrations from two manuscripts (probably both produced in Venice at the end of the 13thC). Most of these are of male troubadours, but there are a few other females as well. Beth Matney ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Do the fillets on the heads mean these troubadours were young girls? Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timetraveltextiles.com -- Original message -- From: Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey guys, I thought that you may find these two portraits interesting: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg92detail.jpg http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg93detail.jpg Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Probably not - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, and who knows what later Venetians might have thought she would have worn? Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do the fillets on the heads mean these troubadours were young girls? Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timetraveltextiles.com -- Original message -- From: Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey guys, I thought that you may find these two portraits interesting: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg92detail.jpg http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg93detail.jpg Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Unmarried maidens in the Maciejowski Bible wear fillets and their hair down--I can't at the moment bring any other examples to mind without the library being to hand, though. I *would*, however, like to see more manuscripts from the same time and similar places to compare before I feel comfortable declaring this an actual historical representation of a garment. Otherwise, the only assumption we can make is that this garment is what the illuminator(s) of this particular manuscript thought that Castelloza would have worn. And we won't even go into the Spanish weirdness, which is an entire 'nother topic all on its own. :-) Jen On Thu, 13 Nov 2008, Anne wrote: Probably not - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, and who knows what later Venetians might have thought she would have worn? Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do the fillets on the heads mean these troubadours were young girls? Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timetraveltextiles.com -- Original message -- From: Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey guys, I thought that you may find these two portraits interesting: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg92detail.jpg http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/Portraits/pg93detail.jpg Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
It is interesting that all of the women's portraits of both manuscripts (the few that were there) show this. Much more variation in headgear in the men's portraits. Informal settings? Maybe to show an unconventional lifestyle? Hippies of the 13th C? Beth Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:31:38 + From: Anne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Probably not - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, and who knows what later Venetians might have thought she would have worn? Jean ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
I was just thinking that very thing. Sort of romanticizing this apparently Bohemian (in the hippy sense) woman. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: It is interesting that all of the women's portraits of both manuscripts (the few that were there) show this. Much more variation in headgear in the men's portraits. Informal settings? Maybe to show an unconventional lifestyle? Hippies of the 13th C? Beth Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:31:38 + From: Anne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Probably not - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, and who knows what later Venetians might have thought she would have worn? Jean ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 ISBN 978-0-9818401-0-9 Available at http://elizabethan.org/compendium/paperback.html or your favorite online bookseller ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Uh-oh. Whenever I let slip that I think anything might be evidence of the existence of unconventional persons in any time period before the 19th century, I know that shortly I will get shot down for it. You guys better duck! ;-) Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timetraveltextiles.com -- Original message -- From: Maggie [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was just thinking that very thing. Sort of romanticizing this apparently Bohemian (in the hippy sense) woman. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: It is interesting that all of the women's portraits of both manuscripts (the few that were there) show this. Much more variation in headgear in the men's portraits. Informal settings? Maybe to show an unconventional lifestyle? Hippies of the 13th C? Beth Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:31:38 + From: Anne Probably not - a troubadour is a composer, and the vida, or biography, of Castelloza says she was married. But it was a fairly unconventional thing for a woman to do, and who knows what later Venetians might have thought she would have worn? Jean ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 ISBN 978-0-9818401-0-9 Available at http://elizabethan.org/compendium/paperback.html or your favorite online bookseller ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
On Nov 13, 2008, at 9:02 AM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: Note the cut of the sideless surcote and the minimal headcovering (a ribbon?). On the page 93 detail, note the fur lined cloak and what appears to be buttons down the front bodice (buttons are shown along the sleeves of the GFD underneath in both images). Some form of closure would be required on both, given the high neckline. In both surcotes are what appear to be slits for hands and a full gore set into the front. Late 13thc (1200s) I think is a bit early for anything that would really be characterized as a GFD (Gothic Fitted Dress). My understanding is that the trend from baggy, roomy tunics toward more closely fitted clothing has really just gotten started at this point, and that the only really close fit is in the lower sleeves (to probably over-generalize wildly). I actually think you can see in the first of the two illustrations that there is quite a bit of roominess still in the shoulders and upper sleeves of the blue garment worn under the red surcoat. I wear clothing from this century often, so I like to explain that at this time there had begun to be a creeping trend toward a closer fit -- which began at the wrist, but by my era (1270s-1290s) it had only progressed as far as the elbow! I then go on to summarize (humorously) Robin Netherton's theory of the evolution of the GFD by explaining that the sinister trend toward a closer fit* started at the wrist, crept up the arm, and then overtook the armhole (thus making a closer fit across the shoulders possible -- while still allowing you to move your arms). In the next stage, a front opening with lacing was invented, which allows you to closely fit the rest of the torso down to the waist and hips, while still letting you get into and out of the dress (since you don't have to pull it on over your head any more!) My own inclination is to start describing it as a Gothic Fitted Dress only when it gets to the point of closely fitting through the torso -- because that's where you start to see the interesting way the gown shapes and supports the body, which loose tunics certainly never did. (*Granted, it's only a sinister trend if you follow the lead of some churchmen of the time and decry closely fitted clothing as too revealing and sinful!) OChris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
These are from two different manuscript copies (the BNE Ms. francais 854 Chansonnier provencal I and the BNE Ms. francais 12473 Chansonnier provencal K.. from copies in France)... but I would also like to see additional. I have a copy of the Maciejowski Bible and am looking for other images. Suggestions? Another set of images of the A manuscript has been recently published (this year), but I haven't been able to obtain a copy as yet. It is from a copy at the Vatican. What other sources of manuscript images do we have for southern France? Beth Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:03:31 -0600 (CST) From: Pixel, Goddess and Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unmarried maidens in the Maciejowski Bible wear fillets and their hair down--I can't at the moment bring any other examples to mind without the library being to hand, though. I *would*, however, like to see more manuscripts from the same time and similar places to compare before I feel comfortable declaring this an actual historical representation of a garment. Otherwise, the only assumption we can make is that this garment is what the illuminator(s) of this particular manuscript thought that Castelloza would have worn. And we won't even go into the Spanish weirdness, which is an entire 'nother topic all on its own. :-) Jen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] women's costume late 13thC
Yes, I was a bit sloppy calling this a GFD. Sorry. Only the elbow to wrist is closely fitted and buttoned. The rest is the standard loose 'tunica' of rectilinear construction. You can see some seam evidence (where the arms are attached) in some of the images. Beth Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:28:01 -0800 From: Chris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Late 13thc (1200s) I think is a bit early for anything that would really be characterized as a GFD (Gothic Fitted Dress). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
